hard opening help

[mcordell 2]

gowlerk

Quote

I have probably about 10-12 reserve rides on Ravens. For the most part they were quite comfortable openings. Only one ever rang my bell and it was a Micro Raven 135.
I actually saw stars all the way to landing, which was not long BTW. I got open about 600 ft!

Another way of looking at this is that nearly 10% of the those openings were dangerously hard. Not exactly a ringing endorsement. Just saying.

From a statistical point of view, 1 hard opeining in 10-12 reserve rides is a relatively small sample group to say they open hard. However if 11 of those 12 were soft openings it sure is hard to call that an anomaly and insist ravens routinely open hard.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[gowlerk 1,910]

Quote

From a statistical point of view, 1 hard opeining in 10-12 reserve rides is a relatively small sample group to say they open hard. However if 11 of those 12 were soft openings it sure is hard to call that an anomaly and insist ravens routinely open hard.

Wait a minute. Didn't this thread start off with you asking about a Raven that opened hard routinely? And that you have tried everything you could think of and were out of ideas? And that now you are considering slider mods even though you have already tried a larger slider? You are the one saying it opens hard, aren't you? I'm just trying to say that your dad deserves a canopy that doesn't hurt him. Super Ravens are known to open quickly. They are also known for '80s style flaring. Good luck with statistical averaging of the pain and injury, and good luck with your dad's "classic" canopy.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[wmw999 2,121]

Back when the Raven-type canopies were more common, side-packing was also more common. Try that, rolling the nose a couple of times. You can also rubber-band the slider. That used to tame my mains.

Yes, they're old techniques. As others have said, a modern canopy might also do the trick. Pocket sliders are another fix for harder openings that seem to help.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mcordell 2]

gowlerk

Quote

From a statistical point of view, 1 hard opeining in 10-12 reserve rides is a relatively small sample group to say they open hard. However if 11 of those 12 were soft openings it sure is hard to call that an anomaly and insist ravens routinely open hard.

Wait a minute. Didn't this thread start off with you asking about a Raven that opened hard routinely? And that you have tried everything you could think of and were out of ideas? And that now you are considering slider mods even though you have already tried a larger slider? You are the one saying it opens hard, aren't you? I'm just trying to say that your dad deserves a canopy that doesn't hurt him. Super Ravens are known to open quickly. They are also known for '80s style flaring. Good luck with statistical averaging of the pain and injury, and good luck with your dad's "classic" canopy.

I was saying that ravens in general don't open as hard as this one has. This one in partucular has been pretty bad. What I was getting at was that when someone says they have had 10-12 raven rides and only one was a hard opening, I don't think it would be fair to use that small sample group to say they are slammers 10 percent of the time. I would say if anything that shows that most of the time they aren't slammers. The odds of the 11 good openings being an anomaly are much lower than the one slammer being an anomaly.

His main canopy opens hard all the time. This thread was just a means of seeing if anyone had any suggestions since the manufacturer said it was most likely the line type causing it. This sport has a history of finding solutions to this very problem and I wanted to draw on that experience. I can see where you read my previous post as contradictory. I appreciate the input. As for him deserving better, I agree...but I think he has also earned the right to not be criticized for choosing the style of canopy he wants considering he has had lots of new ravens that never opened as hard as this one so the choice was not one lacking experience with the canopy he chose or an ill informed or stupid one. The degree to which this canopy opens hard is an anomaly compared to his experience with ravens. We are assuming the difference is that this is the first one he has ever had with these lines...thus the question about how to slow the openings.

To use the car analogy, if he loved classic cars and had an old mustang for which he ordered a brand new crate 302 and installed it, if it started like shit and he asked for advice on what was wrong, the least helpful advice to give is to get a newer car or a modern fuel injected engine because a motor designed in the 60s with a carburetor was bad technology. Hope that explains why I have ignored the advice that a raven is a bad choice. It's ok if you dont see things the same way he does.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[mcordell 2]

wmw999

Back when the Raven-type canopies were more common, side-packing was also more common. Try that, rolling the nose a couple of times. You can also rubber-band the slider. That used to tame my mains.

Yes, they're old techniques. As others have said, a modern canopy might also do the trick. Pocket sliders are another fix for harder openings that seem to help.

Wendy P.

Thanks! He has mentioned the idea of a rubber band on the slider but I think he said something about stowes on the tail of the canopy in the past. That idea seems nearly as scary as a lot of the old ways things were done! I usually pack for him and while I am comfortable flat packing, I usually dont. He also mentioned today that if the precision pack doesn't work he wants to try a flat pack with the nose rolled to the a lines like he used to pack his manta when it was new so I think he is thinking along the same lines as you. We are going to try a dome slider, maybe coupled with one of these packjobs and see if that helps.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[wmw999 2,121]

Yeah, the rubber band was on the tail (if I remember -- it's been a LONG time since I rubber-banded a slider).

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

Another way of looking at this is that nearly 10% of the those openings were dangerously hard. Not exactly a ringing endorsement. Just saying.

Well, the Micro-Raven is really different from the bigger Ravens, so it probably should not be included in the mix here.

Also, this was a very nasty malfunction that had me unstable during deployment.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[ChrisD 0]

Quote

This sport has a history of finding solutions to this very problem and I wanted to draw on that experience.

I do want to mention that one of these solutions was to stop manufacturing dated designs because of the advances in safety and the things that the manufacturers have learned from the past. Making comparisons to cars, is just a really poor analogy....

You seem to be determined to work around this. By consistently doing things that the manufacturer isn't recommending. As well as the subject of sliders continues to come up. My concern is that this really puts yo in the position of a test pilot, or rather this puts someone else in this position that by all appearances isn't able to do this for himself.

Kind of like that tv show shark tank: "For this reason, I'M OUT.!!!"

Hard Openings

Vidieo

C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[stayhigh 2]

Have you jumped his raven???

because some people complain about nothing.

and when you jump hard opening canopy keeping your spine straight as possible is very important.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[mcordell 2]

ChrisD

Quote

This sport has a history of finding solutions to this very problem and I wanted to draw on that experience.

I do want to mention that one of these solutions was to stop manufacturing dated designs because of the advances in safety and the things that the manufacturers have learned from the past. Making comparisons to cars, is just a really poor analogy....

You seem to be determined to work around this. By consistently doing things that the manufacturer isn't recommending. As well as the subject of sliders continues to come up. My concern is that this really puts yo in the position of a test pilot, or rather this puts someone else in this position that by all appearances isn't able to do this for himself.

Kind of like that tv show shark tank: "For this reason, I'M OUT.!!!"

Hard Openings

Vidieo

C

Thanks for your reply and those links. Here is one for you.

http://www.paragear.com/products/10000220/C800/

Based on your post someone should call paragear. They will be awfully embarassed when they can't fill orders for these since, if I read your post correctly, these are no longer manufactured.

I should also repeat, since you missed it, the original larger slider was sent to us by the manufacturer because of the problem. We haven't gone against the manufacturer's recommendation once. Also, to alleviate your concerns, he was a test jumper for a number of years.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[mcordell 2]

stayhigh

Have you jumped his raven???

because some people complain about nothing.

and when you jump hard opening canopy keeping your spine straight as possible is very important.

I have not but it opens hard.

mcordell

Hard compared to his previous jump experience...including lots of ravens. He has bruises where his leg straps are and I have to edit the profanity out of his video 

Hes still in his 50s so I dont think he bruises so easily I could say maybe it doesn't open hard. Thanks for the reply.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[wmw999 2,121]

Part of playing with the packing will be to make sure that something is always happening -- a slow opening with a slam at the end is just stupid.

What this all means is that when he gets the packing etc. all scoped out, he'll need to pack for himself, or else always use the same packer. Because everyone else will pack it in a way that'll slam it.

Age does some stuff -- I found that landing a round was much harder than the last time I did it (mmphty-mmph years ago), and I weigh just about the same I did then... And it could be that the slider is coming down the microline faster because the lines are so much smaller. Could it be that the grommets need to be smaller, too? If it's got the giant grommets for the Dacron, that slider will come zipping right on down...

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mcordell 2]

wmw999

Part of playing with the packing will be to make sure that something is always happening -- a slow opening with a slam at the end is just stupid.

What this all means is that when he gets the packing etc. all scoped out, he'll need to pack for himself, or else always use the same packer. Because everyone else will pack it in a way that'll slam it.

Age does some stuff -- I found that landing a round was much harder than the last time I did it (mmphty-mmph years ago), and I weigh just about the same I did then... And it could be that the slider is coming down the microline faster because the lines are so much smaller. Could it be that the grommets need to be smaller, too? If it's got the giant grommets for the Dacron, that slider will come zipping right on down...

Wendy P.

It does in fact have those huge grommets and that coupled with the spectra is what we think the main issue is (no pun intended). We are going to try a dome slider and rolling the nose to see how those two thinvs work. If they don't then we are done trying to make it work with this main.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[freakflyer9999 1]

wmw999

Age does some stuff -- I found that landing a round was much harder than the last time I did it (mmphty-mmph years ago), and I weigh just about the same I did then...
Wendy P.

You could have stood up that last round landing, you just chickened out.

[wmw999 2,121]

Figuring out the right time to chicken out is why, after nearly 40 years of skydiving, I've walked (not limped) away from all of my landings.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ChrisD 0]

mcordell

***

Quote

This sport has a history of finding solutions to this very problem and I wanted to draw on that experience.

I do want to mention that one of these solutions was to stop manufacturing dated designs because of the advances in safety and the things that the manufacturers have learned from the past. Making comparisons to cars, is just a really poor analogy....

You seem to be determined to work around this. By consistently doing things that the manufacturer isn't recommending. As well as the subject of sliders continues to come up. My concern is that this really puts yo in the position of a test pilot, or rather this puts someone else in this position that by all appearances isn't able to do this for himself.

Kind of like that tv show shark tank: "For this reason, I'M OUT.!!!"

Hard Openings

Vidieo

C

Thanks for your reply and those links. Here is one for you.

http://www.paragear.com/products/10000220/C800/

Based on your post someone should call paragear. They will be awfully embarassed when they can't fill orders for these since, if I read your post correctly, these are no longer manufactured.

I should also repeat, since you missed it, the original larger slider was sent to us by the manufacturer because of the problem. We haven't gone against the manufacturer's recommendation once. Also, to alleviate your concerns, he was a test jumper for a number of years.

Quote

The following is the link that mcordell has provided:

"Prudently developed for emergency situations, the Raven Reserve 7-cell opens quickly, without burning up a lot of sky, delivering you to the surface with confidence."

http://www.paragear.com/products/10000220/C800/
For those that don't fully understand the words: "OPENS QUICKLY..." ( opens quickly in the manufacturers literature) Translate into skydiver speak: Hard Opening.

SO APPARENTLY YOU WANT A QUICK OPENING AND THEN YOU WANT TO SLOW IT DOWN FOR YOUR DAD???

cause the link you provide says it all....

So why do you want to kill your dad?

C



Next time you post a link to a dated reserve that is designed to open hard and fast,...Well it's obvious at this point your screwing around with someone else that can't / won't do anything for themselves.... maybe you should call paragear and let them know what your up to....

Perhaps you posted the wrong link????

I'm not sure what type of game your playing here but reserves are designed differently than most mains. It's your choice to use it and it's also YOUR CHOICE TO LIVE WITH THE OPENING CARACTERISTICS THAT YOU HAVE CHOSEN.


seriously dude,...you want to build in some snivel:

then cut some holes in it with a pair of scissors....


The preceding comment about scissors was sarcasm. It does illustrate however a suggestion that will work, how much material you remove is up to you....actually this isn't sarcasm. We used to do stuff like this back in the day. Some modifications were made with scissors and string. I don't do that anymore.

Or just get something else which is and was the first advice given that you didn't want to hear...

Something with more pleasing opening characteristics.

In case yo haven't gotten the message if you want to re-de-design someone else's canopy,... your on your own.

Skydiving has undergone a long and very costly evolution in design resulting in components that for the most part work!
And now yet again we have some that want to shortcut evolution because they know better. Perhaps they are under the idea that if they keep asking they will get the answere they want to hear, or perhaps they will hope for someone's help in redesigning components that way too many people have invested their lives in.

Another way of illustrating this is you could have started off by saying something like: "my ex-wife has trouble reaching her PC, can I re-rig a second hand AAD to open for her at 3000?" "She has years of experience and used to be a waitress, but now she owns my old DZ." "She want's even more from me,..."

I would very much like to help her! This is a serious question to me, seriously!


Anyone have some used batteries???

If yo happen to find some new way of packing, that buy shit luck doesn't increase the malfunction rate please let us know. And please if you do find some new way of packing that helps could you do it about 20,00 times on your own before you share it with us.....

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[mcordell 2]

ChrisD

******

Quote

This sport has a history of finding solutions to this very problem and I wanted to draw on that experience.

I do want to mention that one of these solutions was to stop manufacturing dated designs because of the advances in safety and the things that the manufacturers have learned from the past. Making comparisons to cars, is just a really poor analogy....

You seem to be determined to work around this. By consistently doing things that the manufacturer isn't recommending. As well as the subject of sliders continues to come up. My concern is that this really puts yo in the position of a test pilot, or rather this puts someone else in this position that by all appearances isn't able to do this for himself.

Kind of like that tv show shark tank: "For this reason, I'M OUT.!!!"

Hard Openings

Vidieo

C

Thanks for your reply and those links. Here is one for you.

http://www.paragear.com/products/10000220/C800/

Based on your post someone should call paragear. They will be awfully embarassed when they can't fill orders for these since, if I read your post correctly, these are no longer manufactured.

I should also repeat, since you missed it, the original larger slider was sent to us by the manufacturer because of the problem. We haven't gone against the manufacturer's recommendation once. Also, to alleviate your concerns, he was a test jumper for a number of years.

Quote

The following is the link that mcordell has provided:

"Prudently developed for emergency situations, the Raven Reserve 7-cell opens quickly, without burning up a lot of sky, delivering you to the surface with confidence."

http://www.paragear.com/products/10000220/C800/
For those that don't fully understand the words: "OPENS QUICKLY..." ( opens quickly in the manufacturers literature) Translate into skydiver speak: Hard Opening.

SO APPARENTLY YOU WANT A QUICK OPENING AND THEN YOU WANT TO SLOW IT DOWN FOR YOUR DAD???

cause the link you provide says it all....

So why do you want to kill your dad?

C



Next time you post a link to a dated reserve that is designed to open hard and fast,...Well it's obvious at this point your screwing around with someone else that can't / won't do anything for themselves.... maybe you should call paragear and let them know what your up to....

Perhaps you posted the wrong link????

I'm not sure what type of game your playing here but reserves are designed differently than most mains. It's your choice to use it and it's also YOUR CHOICE TO LIVE WITH THE OPENING CARACTERISTICS THAT YOU HAVE CHOSEN.


seriously dude,...you want to build in some snivel:

then cut some holes in it with a pair of scissors....


The preceding comment about scissors was sarcasm. It does illustrate however a suggestion that will work, how much material you remove is up to you....actually this isn't sarcasm. We used to do stuff like this back in the day. Some modifications were made with scissors and string. I don't do that anymore.

Or just get something else which is and was the first advice given that you didn't want to hear...

Something with more pleasing opening characteristics.

In case yo haven't gotten the message if you want to re-de-design someone else's canopy,... your on your own.

Skydiving has undergone a long and very costly evolution in design resulting in components that for the most part work!
And now yet again we have some that want to shortcut evolution because they know better. Perhaps they are under the idea that if they keep asking they will get the answere they want to hear, or perhaps they will hope for someone's help in redesigning components that way too many people have invested their lives in.

Another way of illustrating this is you could have started off by saying something like: "my ex-wife has trouble reaching her PC, can I re-rig a second hand AAD to open for her at 3000?" "She has years of experience and used to be a waitress, but now she owns my old DZ." "She want's even more from me,..."

I would very much like to help her! This is a serious question to me, seriously!


Anyone have some used batteries???

If yo happen to find some new way of packing, that buy shit luck doesn't increase the malfunction rate please let us know. And please if you do find some new way of packing that helps could you do it about 20,00 times on your own before you share it with us.....

You seem to be an angry individual. Try some deep breathing. It will all be ok.

www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging

[Maksimsf 0]

PD Specte, Triathlon, NZ/Icarus Omega and Omni, Skylark Skipper, Aerotech Cheyenne.. that is 6 types of 7 cell modern canopies that cost from $1400-$2000 brand new that I can just name out of my head, and he chooses Raven? Seriously - I jumped Soviet Para Commander UT-15 back in the days - I really liked that steep approach and fast 360 turns, brutal openings back then was normal since pull altitude was around 600-700 meters (~2000 Ft), but I didn't buy that canopy when I went back into skydiving 2 years ago. If your dad dead set on Raven - be creative, buy him a used Spectre, Tri, Omega ect secretly for Xmass and just let him jump that few times and see what he has to say after that. I'm pretty sure you love your dad and spending ~$1000 may save his life or makes him last longer - it's worth it...

[DJL 232]

Quote

Again, he likes ravens.

Does he still like Ravens?

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[DcloudZ 0]

TL;DR whole thread but read the OP.


"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change."

-Charles Darwin

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts