Strange Reserve Repack scenario?

[milehigheric 0]

I'm just getting all the info together to put my rig on the market and have a couple of questions.

Firstly I just wanted to confirm the method of counting reserve rides based on the packing card. Packing card only lists inspect/repack (ie, no mention of ride) in each entry but some entries are within 2 -4 months of each other. Do you assume that any repack entry less then 6 months (leeway of a couple of weeks maybe) was due to a reserve ride or just an early repack cycle (do people do this?)

Second question is based around the cypress 2 jump log.... it is what it is I guess but the scenario just seems a little strange and I wanted to hear your opinions.

Repacks in packing card
01 - 31-03-05
02 - 27-07-05
03 - 23-11-05
04 - 05-07-06 (Current AAD was installed at this repack)
05 - 20-02-07
06 - 25-04-07
07 - 07-12-07
08 - 11-04-08
09 - 03-10-08
10 - 17-10-08
11 - 29-05-09
12 - 11-06-10
13 - 02-06-11
14 - 20-07-12 (this is when I purchased the Rig)
15 - 18-09-13

So I believe the rig to have around 400 jumps on it at the moment and the current Cypress jump log shows 91 jumps (not the original unit). According to my log book, 86 of them have been mine from repack 14 (20-07-12) on-wards. This would mean only 5 jumps were logged on the AAD between 05-07-06 and the 20-07-12... 6 years . Entries 12,13 and up to when I took over at 14 indicate to me the possibility that it wasn't jumped much during this time (yearly repacks)...but really, how do you accumulate more reserve repacks then actual jumps?

I dont know what to think - based on that data 300+ jumps would have had to be made before the new cypress was installed at repack 4. Could this be right or is something going on here that I'm missing?

I should have probably been on to all this and asked the right questions when I bought it - keep in mind I had about 20 jumps then however.

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Some reserve canopies have reserve rided recorded on the canopy label. Have you checked that?

PD reserve canopies have a place to log repacks and or rides. Simple repacks without ride are recorded as a slash " / ". Rides are recorded as an " X ".

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[monkycndo 0]

Repack cycle in the US used to be 120 days. The only jump that might be due to reserve ride looks like 25-04-07.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[BIGUN 1,053]

>>>>>>>>>how do you accumulate more reserve repacks then actual jumps?

In reference to pack #6...

When you've had a horrendous or are new to the sport malfunction and use your reserve,
You don't immediately get back in the saddle and/or have too much time or responsibilities that makes you reconsider the sport,
And, have intentions of keeping everything up to date for that magic moment that you grab your gear and run back to the DZ.

But, it never happens and you choose to sell your rig.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[likestojump 3]

Riggers should note and Inspection/Repacks after a ride on the data card.
I have had people ask for a repack mid-cycle for various reasons (most of the time towards the 2nd half of the season, so they remain in date until the end of the year, and don't need to have the hassle around the holiday boogie season).

Cypres2 did not introduce the jump counter feature until a number of years after the unit release so there's a good chance that your unit did not start counting the numbers up until after it's last service. Also, I cannot verify, but chances are the jump counters are reset during the 4/8 year service.

Why make such a big deal of this ? Very few people are diligent in their logging, almost everyone guesstimates.

[milehigheric 0]

Oh right, I wasn't aware that the cypress jump log was introduced down the track. If it started logging after the 4 year it would make sense. It's not a big deal at all, I was more just curious as I was expecting the AAD counter to be somewhat reflective of the rigs history.

As to potential reserve rides, there is no X or / in any of the entries? There may be markings on the canopy i'm not really sure - I'll check at the next repack. To me, repacks 6 & 10 look to close to be normal so I think i will just list the reserve as having 2 rides and 15 packs.

[ChrisD 0]

As Jim pointed out already the "X" v. "/" thing is on the reserve and is considered "manufacturers instructions" but only for those manufacturers that do this. Not all reserve canopy's have this feature. PD does this as their instructions warrant an "acid" test at either 40 repack cycles or 25 uses (reserve rides). It doesn't appear that you are even close to this for the non-distructive acid test...

C

By the way the X / thing isn't used on any of the data cards or logbooks entries. Nor is it a requirement that the rigger note the repack was due to the reserve being used in the logbook. On PD reserves which have the canopy tag attached, then it is a requirement as then the rigger is obligated to follow the manufacturers instructions and as such are required to add the / or the X on the canopy when it is repacked. There is no requirement to open and pack an unused reserve on a regular basis. Many seasonal jumpers have just one entry per year on their cards, which is fine. Other jumpeers to help understand why there could be more than 2 entries per year on the card, frequently will have their rig repacked if they have a concern that if when traveling they could be somewhere and stuck out of date they will just have their favorite rigger do it again. This sometimes comes about because some riggers will write the next repack due date on the card and other riggers don't do this. There is no requirement to write the "next due date" on the card either but sometimes this causes a little confusioin.

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[milehigheric 0]

Thanks for the clarification. It is a PD reserve so the canopy label should tell the story when it gets pulled out next.

[Bertt 0]

3-10-08, 17-10-08

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[Southern_Man 0]

If you have used gear then there is no way to accurately recount what happened to it before you got your hands on it.

I just repacked a guys rig about three weeks after the previous repack because the reserve closing loop had been damaged when the previous rigger packed it. according to your methodology that would be a ride but it wasn't. I know of at least a couple of other repacks that have happened because of damaged closing loops. Other possibilities exist as well.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[likestojump 3]

ChrisD

As Jim pointed out already the "X" v. "/" thing is on the reserve and is considered "manufacturers instructions" but only for those manufacturers that do this. Not all reserve canopy's have this feature. PD does this as their instructions warrant an "acid" test at either 40 repack cycles or 25 uses (reserve rides). It doesn't appear that you are even close to this for the non-distructive acid test...

C

By the way the X / thing isn't used on any of the data cards or logbooks entries. Nor is it a requirement that the rigger note the repack was due to the reserve being used in the logbook. On PD reserves which have the canopy tag attached, then it is a requirement as then the rigger is obligated to follow the manufacturers instructions and as such are required to add the / or the X on the canopy when it is repacked. There is no requirement to open and pack an unused reserve on a regular basis. Many seasonal jumpers have just one entry per year on their cards, which is fine. Other jumpeers to help understand why there could be more than 2 entries per year on the card, frequently will have their rig repacked if they have a concern that if when traveling they could be somewhere and stuck out of date they will just have their favorite rigger do it again. This sometimes comes about because some riggers will write the next repack due date on the card and other riggers don't do this. There is no requirement to write the "next due date" on the card either but sometimes this causes a little confusioin.

ACID test ??????

I am quite certain you mean a PULL test.

a pH test is a only done on the drive slot mesh of some of the 80's rounds reserves (Phantoms, Pioneers, GQ's). Definitely not applicable to a PD reserve.

[Southern_Man 0]

likestojump

ACID test ??????

I am quite certain you mean a PULL test.

a pH test is a only done on the drive slot mesh of some of the 80's rounds reserves (Phantoms, Pioneers, GQ's). Definitely not applicable to a PD reserve.

Actually I believe the main test they do is a porosity test.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[Deyan 31]

Southern_Man

***
ACID test ??????

I am quite certain you mean a PULL test.

a pH test is a only done on the drive slot mesh of some of the 80's rounds reserves (Phantoms, Pioneers, GQ's). Definitely not applicable to a PD reserve.

Actually I believe the main test they do is a porosity permeability test.

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[ChrisD 0]

Southern_Man

***
ACID test ??????

I am quite certain you mean a PULL test.

a pH test is a only done on the drive slot mesh of some of the 80's rounds reserves (Phantoms, Pioneers, GQ's). Definitely not applicable to a PD reserve.

Actually I believe the main test they do is a porosity test.

Thanks for the correction, sometimes when I'm typin at 300 wpm, I can't really type worth doo doo...

"Fabric Permeability Test." is the correct response....

C


So sell your reserve before it gets to be 20 years old....

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[likestojump 3]

ChrisD

******
ACID test ??????

I am quite certain you mean a PULL test.

a pH test is a only done on the drive slot mesh of some of the 80's rounds reserves (Phantoms, Pioneers, GQ's). Definitely not applicable to a PD reserve.

Actually I believe the main test they do is a porosity test.

Thanks for the correction, sometimes when I'm typin at 300 wpm, I can't really type worth doo doo...

"Fabric Permeability Test." is the correct response....

C


So sell your reserve before it gets to be 20 years old....

What happens when or hits 20 years ???

[ChrisD 0]

Not going to take that bait today.
But because of the controversy generated, I have heard from more than one person that is contemplating selling their gear because of the controversy surrounding that date alone, well before that date is reached.

Does that make any sense. I was trying to help this OP out with his data card, perhaps selling older gear is for another posting?

Personally I wish someone would clarify "that letter" and reach some sort of decision. 20 sounds a bit short to me for a reserve, but what do I know????

C

Not trying to be cryptic, just that that issue has been discussed, and most likely will continue to be, in other areas....

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[likestojump 3]

ChrisD

Not going to take that bait today.
But because of the controversy generated, I have heard from more than one person that is contemplating selling their gear because of the controversy surrounding that date alone, well before that date is reached.

Does that make any sense. I was trying to help this OP out with his data card, perhaps selling older gear is for another posting?

Personally I wish someone would clarify "that letter" and reach some sort of decision. 20 sounds a bit short to me for a reserve, but what do I know????

C

Not trying to be cryptic, just that that issue has been discussed, and most likely will continue to be, in other areas....

You sir have just taken the bait.

You made an advice that you cannot backup.

what is "that letter" that you are referring to ?

and lastly - who the fuck are you ? Please list some qualifications. Giving advice is serious business, and having been registered for a year and having nearly 1000 posts is hardly equivalent of rigging experience.

[ChrisD 0]

Somebody having a bad day?

Perhaps you could enlighten us as to the requirments for a porosity test. Please, take any Optimium, PR, PD Reserve and explain what they mean when they say, (just quoting the tag on the canopy,) "... a fabric permeability test within each 25 jumps and 40 packs. Do not repack unless these requirments have been meet"


On the tag there are 40 spaces to be filled in. At 2 repacks per year, well.....that's 20 years of use. What happens to the older PD reserve When all of the little blocks are filled in ????

Perhaps you could also mention PIA 108 and that sentence in the first paragraph that mentions the "confusion between and acid test and the pull test..."?

So I got confused, and I corrected myself as soon as it was pointed out, so glad you corrected me with:

Quote

ACID test ??????

I am quite certain you mean a PULL test.

I was mostly commenting about Glideangles observation about the tag on PD canopies, the OP seemed to think that that was also something that was in or on logbooks. I was just pointing out that this marking is on the canopy itself.

By the way when is a pull test required and is this the same thing as mentioned on the PD canopy tag?

I didn't even want to get into the confusion about the AAD 90 day 120 day cycle. Perhaps you could clarify that for us as well ? I only offer that as a reason for an explanation for some repacks as well.

But as you point out:

Quote

Very few people are diligent in their logging, almost everyone guesstimates.

With everyone making WAG's, could you point out anything that I can't back up? Seriously, I count on you guys with more experience to correct my mistakes....

C



Other than that did you offer to help eric buy or sell his stuff?? Just trying to help the kid....

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[likestojump 3]

Once your tail tag boxes are all filled out, you pay to ship the reserve back to PD, where for $25 they do the porosity test and advise of any repairs needed. Please see an attached picture for the result.

Mentioning PIA has zero relevance, as they are not a federal agency, and have no governing power. You are not the type of person who thinks that violating a BSR will get you in trouble with Johnny Law, are ya ?



BTW, you mention Optimium, PR and PD Reserve - ???? There's the PD Optimum, and the PD Reserve, written as PR on PD model number nomenclature, and a lot of times abbreviated as PDR.

[Bertt 0]

I don't know what happens when it hits 20 years, but when mine hit 21 years, I bought it a beer and packed it again the next day.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[Southern_Man 0]

ChrisD

Somebody having a bad day?

By the way when is a pull test required and is this the same thing as mentioned on the PD canopy tag?

Fabric testing [pull test] should be done annually on the topskin rightmost cell, top skin leftmost cell, and center tail. It should be marked on the packing card.

According to the PD manual.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[ChrisD 0]

Thanks for the picture of the tag.

No It's just when it's late at night and I'm doing two things at once that frequently I jumble things up. I only mentioned the PIA 108 thing cause of what I remembered from the opening paragraph of that test, that I do belive is still part of the 2005 FAA Riggers man. (A - 19) and some of the confusion surrounding the subject of shall, must and recommended etc, etc.

I do think it's relevant to mention as an additional reason for keeping good records cause , correct me If I'm wrong but dosen't PD specify a pull test if the logs are missing, or incomplete? Or something? I'm not sure of the exact wording used.

Don't get me wrong I agree with ya on so many issues and completely agree that PD seems to want to extend their control over their products. Do you think more education for the masses would help with many issues.

Buying and selling gear I mean....

there seems to be a lot of confusion and a dearth of information or perhaps an unconcerned bunch of skydivers out there sometimes.

I have often thought a list of "best practices" published somewhere would help jumpers tell the care'ing riggers from those that perhaps don't care as much???

I mean if your packing a pile of reserves is it too much for a stamp so that you can actually see who did what? Or is it better to write in something that no human can tell who or what did what??? (As an example?)

I also get confused sometimes with the "reply" function on this site, I don't always reply to whowm people assume i'm repling to cause I just frequently go to the bottom of the list and forget that that may be construed to a reply to the last person, this causes confusion I know, I'll try to be better about that in the future.

No I don't see the BSR'S as law, but really I do , cause they are just trying to do the min to save peoples asses....

take that Gerado bull crap when he, without permission, tried to evade, intentionally , the BSR's to do what he wanted...turned out bad for skydiving. Or at least the publicity had a really shitty feel to it, it certainly wasn't positive. I didn't hear the media in CA quote any of the reccomondations "he" was supposed to be following.

I just try to stick with much of them cause it makes life a little simpler and safer

Personally I like the one year thing that the Optimum says is ok....not trying to put riggers out of a job though....

C

And I try not to steer to far away from the OP's original question, the other thing that could have caused a repack and if it was a PD reserve a permeability test as well is if the thing got wet.

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."