Reserve not extracting

[irishrigger 31]

I have been reading and listning about aad fires and the reserve not inflating in time, then i came across this rig and it has really opened my eyes! the scale i have measures 35lbs and it was not enough to extract this freebag with the main inside and riser cover closed.i do not believe that this reserve would have inflated in time, had the person had to rely on his AAD to save him.
I have advised the owner to get a smaller reserve, at the moment it is an Optimum 143.
my question is should every rigger test a rig like this for every repack? I do not believe that every rigger checks this,so should it be made compulsary?

[RMURRAY 1]

John Sherman has this published...

http://www.jumpshack.com/default.asp?CategoryID=TECH&PageID=18pounds&SortBy=DATE_D

[irishrigger 31]

it was after i read John Shermans post that i started doing this test.

[diablopilot 2]

Can you tell us the type and size of the rig, and if the reserve is manufacturer recommended/approved for that size?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[dirtbox 0]

be interesting to know the container size and canopy sizes?

[JeffCa 0]

irishrigger

it was after i read John Shermans post that i started doing this test.

For all of the people who call John Sherman crazy, he has a lot of wisdom to share, and publishes it on his site. Other manufacturers either don't test these things or keep them hidden from the public because they think we're not interested (and they're right about most of us). I checked all of the major manufacturers' websites and made this thread:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4478265;search_string=reserve%20extraction%20newbie;#4478265

That's why I got myself a Racer. The reserve coming out of the container is one of the 3 things that I consider non-negotiable about a rig. My container is custom-made for my reserve size, even though I got an over-sized reserve, 30 sq. ft bigger than my main.

We have a jumper at our DZ who hasn't been around since the early-90's, and is just now back in. When he saw my rig, the only Racer on our DZ, he thumped the back and told me, "That reserve is coming out when it has to!"

Why shouldn't the test be mandatory? Assuming the reserve is being re-packed without being deployed, it would take only a few minutes, right? Might add $5 to the cost of re-pack? It could at least be done once for every container/reserve combo that you have.

"So many fatalities and injuries are caused by decisions jumpers make before even getting into the aircraft. Skydiving can be safe AND fun at the same time...Honest." - Bill Booth

[Deyan 31]

To be more accurate in your testing, you should have somebody wearing the rig. You gonna get different readings, believe me

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[ChrisD 0]

This is an awesome posting, Thanks for bringing this to the communities attention.
I noticed some very well meaning people want some numbers and types, as would I.

But is it more important to find those rigs out there that this is a problem?

I mean I can envision doing everything by the numbers size charts wize. And then the possibility of this situation happening regardless because of some manufacturing variables or user changes of something.

Do the riggers need to raise the bar, why should this cost more for a simple scale to test for this???

Is there an issue when some might say that the rig should be on your back and or this type of example isn't fair because the main is still packed???

Are these types of "bombs" being hidden because when it comes time to repack the reserve we are having well meaning individuals practice their ep's by wearing their rigs so that they get a more realistic experience? (Generally many riggers want the main out of the way....)

C

The word compulsory is going to cause a shit storm, but your observation and comments are spot on...

Yes every rigger of good conscionsiousness should test for this.

And every skydiver should know exactly this as well....

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[dqpacker 7]

Can you give info on container size, main size, and did you do a drop test or just slowly pick it up off the floor?

you really should provide this info before making a post like this.

[irishrigger 31]

it is a Javelin NJK, reserve is a optimum 143 and main is a Vel96.I believe sunpath recommend optimum126 as max.
I did assemble the rig again after washing the container 3 years ago. at that time i was worried because it was tight in there. i did the pull test that time, but the big difference, i did it WITHOUT the main in there and the riser covers were not closed. after reading about a couple fatalities recently and reading John Sherman Excellent article i talked to the owner and mentioned my concern. he wanted some work done on the container,so before dissasembling it i did the check.
after taking these pics, i got a friend to get into the rig and then used the Scales to measure.
I do believe John Sherman has made a very valid point in his article. so the question is should every rigger check this from now on?

[wmw999 2,119]

The additional information is nice, but, you know -- reserve extraction doesn't always happen under ideal circumstances. I want to be able to pull the reserve freebag out with two fingers, in case my bad day is the day that the burble over me is gigantic, and the pilot chute doesn't get a good launch.

To me, emergency planning should not assume an optimum performance path. How many failures deep is a personal decision.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[irishrigger 31]

i did not pick the rig up slowly of the floor,i gave it a good pull.

[RMURRAY 1]

" so the question is should every rigger check this from now on?"
agree on a test method and YES.

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

Relevant:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4467914#4467914

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[BigMark 1]

This test is stupid, does he have one of the smallest rigs on the dropzone and if does 300 mph head down will a flap open? That sirs is the important shit, right?

[peter.draper 0]

about a year ago, I had a brand new Mirage G4 come in, (factory assembled and packed) I left the main in as I usually do, popped the reserve and couldn't extract the reserve with one hand. I picked the rig up by the bridle and swung it round the room. I have video somewhere, I will try and find it.

I repacked it, closed it and did the test again with a 135lb guy laying on his tummy wearing the rig. It took over 45lb to extract the reserve and initially almost pulled him off the floor.... I grounded the rig......

Yes, with over 80lb of extraction from the pilot chute in a perfect, belly to earth or vertical (cutaway scenario) deployment it will work, but what if you're on your back at AAD firing altitude with the main still in?

[file 1]

Is that Sherman?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC8jYk4MWJQ&feature=youtu.be

[obelixtim 100]

That is a ridiculous situation. A reserve configuration like that does nothing but get you to the scene of the impact faster.

Almost need to get back to the days of pack opening bands...

And you need a haircut!!!!

My computer beat me at chess, It was no match for me at kickboxing....

[GobbleGobble 0]

irishrigger

it is a Javelin NJK, reserve is a optimum 143 and main is a Vel96.I believe sunpath recommend optimum126 as max.
I did assemble the rig again after washing the container 3 years ago. at that time i was worried because it was tight in there. i did the pull test that time, but the big difference, i did it WITHOUT the main in there and the riser covers were not closed. after reading about a couple fatalities recently and reading John Sherman Excellent article i talked to the owner and mentioned my concern. he wanted some work done on the container,so before dissasembling it i did the check.
after taking these pics, i got a friend to get into the rig and then used the Scales to measure.
I do believe John Sherman has made a very valid point in his article. so the question is should every rigger check this from now on?

So we have a rig that is overstuffed having issues. I'm more worried about the rigs that have issues when canopies are sized per manufacturer guidance. That said good catch!

[erdnarob 1]

Have you tried to pull the bridle perpendicular to the rig as it is normally the case in the air ? But situation like the one described can happen when the jumper is straight up or on his back with bridle around the shoulder. Some rig are built very tight at the top of the reserve. Remember this jumper in Quebec, on his back, with the bridle and pilot chute fully extended, with no launch of the reserve. He had to grab the bridle with his hand and pull to get the reserve extraction. Check the video on You Tube.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[TMPattersonJr 0]

erdnarob

Remember this jumper in Quebec, on his back, with the bridle and pilot chute fully extended, with no launch of the reserve. He had to grab the bridle with his hand and pull to get the reserve extraction. Check the video on You Tube.

Yea, this guy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKVAtjfGjp0

Glad he was heads up enough to pull out his freebag. I get ribbed all the time for my ugly Racers. But you know what, my equipment while pretty to me is not going to be a factor in my passing if ever the situation arises. You can give me all the crap you want about my rigs, you're not going to prove to me that pretty=safe... EVER

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[woppyvac 0]

This test, with the main in, should be a definite.

Woot Woot!

[normiss 622]

How'd that work for Larry Elmore?

[normiss 622]

Larry had the same belief and it failed him.

Don't put all your eggs in one manufacturer's basket.
Or container for that matter.

[airtwardo 6]

wmw999

The additional information is nice, but, you know -- reserve extraction doesn't always happen under ideal circumstances. I want to be able to pull the reserve freebag out with two fingers, in case my bad day is the day that the burble over me is gigantic, and the pilot chute doesn't get a good launch.

To me, emergency planning should not assume an optimum performance path. How many failures deep is a personal decision.

Wendy P.

Remember when squares & freebags came out?

The sales pitch behind the wide bridle was in case of a horse shoe the drag on the bridle would extract the freebag and the reserve would still deploy...now the pilot chute won't even drag it out.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~