How do I know if I need a reline?

[CanadianNoob 0]

Hi guys.

I bought a Pilot 168 last summer and jumped it all season. I did not have any info from the previous owner as far as number of jumps on the canopy or on the lines...

I was planning on sending it to the manufacturer over winter for an inspection and reline but I have decided to measure my lines first and figure out if I do need a reline or not and possibly save a couple hundred bucks.

So I loaded my lines to 10 lbs as per the manufacturer and measured all the lines.

So now the question is: how much out of trim is too much? The canopy flies and flares fine but the openings seem to be getting wonkier.

Is there a general guideline for max line shrinkage?

Thanks.

[likestojump 3]

If your openings are getting progressively worse, get a reline. And get HMA lines.

good luck !

[jonathan.newman 1]

Don't keep us in suspense, what did you measure? Rule of thumb is that anything within an inch of spec is just fine. After that, it's all about opening characteristics. I'm guessing your outside lines are 3-5" short and your brakes are 5-8" short, if you're getting whacked on openings. If you want to stay "on the cheap" you might replace just the brakes, if that's your worst offender. But that might set you back $80 and still not fix it.

Before you send it to the manufacturer, talk to your local rigger. If you fill in your profile, someone might just contact you. At least tell us where you live.

[CanadianNoob 0]

Sorry I have a habit of not giving too much personal info online... I am in Ontario canada.

You're talking overall line length but Aerodyne's specs are line differentials. For my size canopy:

A-B is around 1.5"
A-C is around 7.5"
A-D is around 15.5"

What would be an "out of spec" limit for those differentials? I'm assuming an inch out of spec on A-B will be a lot worse than an inch on A-D...

My openings are getting harder but only on the second part of the deployment, when the side cells inflate following the center one, and that gives me a lot more off-heading than it used to. I wouldn't say I'm getting spanked though.

I'm not trying to cheap out so if I have to reline, it will be the whole thing.

HMA lines? Hmmmmmmm......

[Deyan 31]

CanadianNoob

Sorry I have a habit of not giving too much personal info online... I am in Ontario canada.

You're talking overall line length but Aerodyne's specs are line differentials. For my size canopy:

A-B is around 1.5"
A-C is around 7.5"
A-D is around 15.5"

What would be an "out of spec" limit for those differentials? I'm assuming an inch out of spec on A-B will be a lot worse than an inch on A-D...

HMA lines? Hmmmmmmm......

The difference between A1,B1,C1 and D1 will stay about the same. The biggest difference will be between the outside lines and the center lines.
The general rule of thumb is ..... the moment you have any doubts about the condition of any part of your equipment, go to your rigger.

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

The difference between A1,B1,C1 and D1 will stay about the same. The biggest difference will be between the outside lines and the center lines.

JFYI
This is true if you are talking about a PD canopy.

NOT true if you are talking about just about any other manufacturers canopy. The reason is just about every other manufacturer labels their canopies' lines from the stabilizer inward to the center.This would make the A1 be on the outside (stab).

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[ChrisD 0]

For me, anything that approaches the 3" mark is a cause for concern. Considering the cost / benefit ratio. Of course anytime something different happens on opening, per all the manufacturers info, (can you say CYA...) the reccomondation is a no-brainer...

PD info, cause it's so easy to find on the web, indicates that lines should last up to 500 jumps, but if something is happening then by all means replace them.

This page from the Storm flight Characteristics:

Storm

You can fast forward to the Line sections....

If it was me I would never let any line get more than 3" from where it is supposed to be, and to suggest lines that are more than 8" out of trim should be used is just asking for stupid to rear its ugly head....

But that's just me...

C

Now if you have a large Spectre the toggle lines are sometimes modified by the user preference, some other users also modify their toggle line length as well, this is a user preference. I mention this here but this is really a separate discussion.

Here is another link that makes for interesting readin:
Shoot me

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[-ftp- 0]

likestojump

If your openings are getting progressively worse, get a reline. And get HMA lines.

good luck !

why is it neccesary to get HMA lines?

[mattjw916 2]

Thinner and dimensionally stable? Although they can snap with little/no warning.

Personally I prefer HMA too since it packs up smaller and there aren't any cascades which means all the line stows are identical in size when packing (at least on my canopies).

Packing my other Vectran lined canopy the stows just seem enormous in comparison.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[riggerrob 558]

If the difference across the A lines is more than 3 inches, you are due for a re-line.

[ChrisD 0]

The other thing I keep forgetting is that many times this information is in the main canopy users manual.

To me anyways confusion abounds. PD,...

in their user manual clearly states that the canopy may deviate the "differentials... by 0.5 inches..." and this is out of the box brand new.


So what does that say about long term use and or if their are more differentials over time????


This can be a very confusing subject.

C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[likestojump 3]

Nothing confusing about canopy getting out of trim. If the performance worsens to a point of you not liking it or feeling unsafe - it's time to reline. Pretty damn simple.

[ChrisD 0]

What I forgot to add and part of my point is / was:

that many individuals I come into contact with, want some kind of number,

an oversimplification I know considering all of the other factors,

but many want a simple number,


So they go home and actually read the manual and then I can envision a situation where some or all are in a tizzy about how when they measured their canopy it deviates more than a half an inch.

I agree with ya, but I am looking for a way to make things easier for some and stop rumors from starting for others.

C

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[JerryBaumchen 1,046]

Hi Chris,

Quote

make things easier for some and stop rumors

If only you could.

Quote

want some kind of number

Just give them one then. And if they ask where you got it, just tell them that it is well known in the rigging community.



JerryBaumchen

[riggerrob 558]

Half an inch - left to right - is a common production tolerance on harnesses and canopies.

You are due for a re-line when the difference across the A-lines exceeds 3 inches. This wear measurement is from conversations with leading canopy manufacturers (like Strong Enterprises and Performance Designs).
If your canopy is tapered, then still start by measuring the difference across the A-lines, then compare that number with the canopy trim chart. You may need a Master Rigger to help you read a trim chart.
When you get confused, ask your local rigger.

[ChrisD 0]

likestojump

Nothing confusing about canopy getting out of trim. If the performance worsens to a point of you not liking it or feeling unsafe - it's time to reline. Pretty damn simple.

7.1.13


I posted the link in a prior posting.

Now this is going to sound a little like I'm speaking down to some of you, I'm not.....

You know and I know how to tell about performance, but I frequently forget that there are large numbers of individuals that can not understand the "Matrix" of line trims. As riggers are you guys shooting yourself in the foot so to speak by sending canopies back to the factory when we could be using the matrix and trimming lines more often? I'm also trying to point out that your friendly local rigger has an alternative to an expensive new set of lines when it's not necessary to change them all....

I think that this whole line trim thing has been pushed to one extreme and the benefits of keeping our canopies trimmed, well before any line even gets close to 3 inches, have been lost. There is great benifite to flying trimed' canopies even if most gear purchaseRs don't realize this!

Let's get that puppy trimmed to what the original specifications were is NOT the first question most canopy purchasers ask as the first question....

The problem that I've encountered is the population of newbies to gear purchasing,...they have no idea how to tell what is going on with their canopies.

There are two populations of gear purchasers:

1. people with some experience, and they know when their canopy is acting funny. They have learned via some trial and error and they have experience.

2. others, frequently their first gear purchase. They spend great amounts of time on the internet, asking questions in person, sending away for literature, etc, etc,....All they can do as far as used canopies and the subject of line trim is wip out their tape measures and measure away. Performance issues are a waste of time even to speak about that with them.

I think there are more individuals in category 2 than one. Or at times it seems to be this way....
One thing that travelling around to different DZ's has taught me is that there is a signifigant population out there that just want to have their rigger handle every issue, no matter how trivial, to someone else.

And I know how frustrating that can be for you very dedicated, consciouensious riggers out there. Cause there are many out there that don't care the same way you guys do!

I think an educated skydiver is a safer skydiver. Lately I've meet a lot of really uncareing skydivers....

So how do we reach those that need some education about line trim's, do it simply, keep every one safe and remember at the same time there is a huge population that sometimes we forget that when we speak about performance that they cant tell.

ARGGHHH!!!!!


C


Lately I've been on a similar rant about pilot chutes. If you even have to ask if your pilot chute is worn it probably needs or perhaps better said you could benefit from getting a new one as compared with replacing it. But so many point out that it's an easy repair if the kill line needs replacing etc.... some have pointed out that and stated "what are and why are you supporting the manufacturers on this one"... I'm not I have a concern that the bridial becomes more permeable and thus it is easy for the pin to pierce the bridial under these conditions. And of course that the fabric is well past it's useful life, but ARRGGGHH it can still pull the main.

AS an example, and ya I can tie this whole thinking process lint line trim as well,...as an example take a new UPT bridial and try as I might I can't push the pin thru the 2 layers of tape material. For example take any pull up cord and push any pin thru the material....this is what I'm talking about. It's so easy to do. But our bridal tapes are not pull up cord material you say!

But I point out after 500 uses they might as well be!

The line trim thing is like this, in that there is no simple example, till openings get horrendous or some one gets spanked etc as just one example. Every purchaser of a sport main, I think needs to be educated as to the fact that at some point they are going to face this expense. It really should be on the fist page of whatever brand canopy you have's manual.

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."