skyhawk 2 #26 July 5, 2002 i hate the fact that ppl say "guns dont kill people , people kill people" that is the type of mentality that cause problems, ill be 18 soon and getting a gun licence and that mentality scares the crap out of me guns do kill people sure you can kill someone with a knife or a pen but its alot easier with a gun, with pretty much anything else you have to make a deliberate action to cause damage the majoristy of the time, go into the kitchen and grab a knife put it on the counter ok someone is coming you grabit now what, you think, you either take a swipe or just hold it there hoping they will go away, lets assume you swipe chances are your panikling so you either miss or just nic them you stop to think again wait a sec thats your kid comen down for a snack same senario this time you have a gun, you swing around get scared and bang kids dead. The reason that guns are such great weapons are because a. there fast b. the accurate c. they inflict maximum harm. Sure it is the person pulling the trigger but when was the last time you heard of a kid playing around in the cutlery draw and stabbing themselves/friend to death or disgruntal worker going on a stabbing rampage with a pen, both possible senarios, and finally add a one more to the list d.power anybody that has every held a gun knows you feel an instant sense of power, just like if not bigger then when you first hopped behind the wheel of a car, you a (hopefully) in full control of something that can kill in a second. Guns do have uses and it is fun to shoot a target but having the attitude that guns arnt really dangerous is what gets people killed it only take a snap of a finger and yours and others lives can change forever. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nws01 0 #27 July 5, 2002 I guess we are continually fighting terrorist though. Sounds like we are getting ready to take on Hussein. http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/07/05/iraq.usa.reut/index.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nws01 0 #28 July 5, 2002 And Hussein's son is over here learning to fly a 747? Deporting his ass. http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/07/04/hussein.stepson/index.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #29 July 5, 2002 Ok, I'm Pro-guns, that's all I'm going to say, just about every argument thats been brought up against my right to have a firearm, I have debunked (with actual data and numbers) in previous threads, so feel free to search and find them. Personally, I tire of trying to explain my rights to someone who doesn't live in the US, even though we are very similar, fundamentally we differ and you probably will never understand.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #30 July 5, 2002 QuoteSeems a rather large inconvenience to me Tom. But it's your country, you do what you like. I am willing to pay a large price for a large freedom. It's the same decision I make when I jump. I experience extreme freedom at very high potential cost (death). Why would I make the decision for freedom in one area of my life, and opt for safety and comfort at the cost of freedom in another? Those who give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Benjamin Franklin-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #31 July 5, 2002 QuoteThose who give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Benjamin Franklin I so love that quote. Nicely said Tom. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyflier 0 #32 July 5, 2002 Isn't it nice of you to be willing to pay a large price (i.e other's lives) for freedom. I am also more than willing to pay a large price for freedom. Every time I jump it is a decision - risk vs. reward. But this isn't about jumping is it. I prefer to be the one making choices about my life and the safety there of. My problem with guns is that some f#$@er in a pub might make that choice for me and THAT takes away MY freedom. Old Benjamin's quote mean very little to me I'm afraid..."temporary safety" in this context is essentially referring to the lives of people who may not wish to be killed by a gun. I'm all for risk, but only when I have a say in the outcome. But as I said before, it's your country. If you want to keep blowing each other away in the name of "freedom" it is of no consequence to me. Just don't bring 'em to my country. P.S. In regard to your earlier post; Northern Ireland (IRA) were fighting the British occupiers , the Palestinians are fighting the Israelis ...who is America fighting? PPS. Please don't interpret this as anti-American slander, it isn't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #33 July 5, 2002 QuoteOld Benjamin's quote mean very little to me I'm afraid..."temporary safety" in this context is essentially referring to the lives of people who may not wish to be killed by a gun Some people use the term "Sheeople" for people with thoughts such as this. ...who is America fighting? *** Pretty much anyone who is a threat to us. We haven't found our way to East Timor yet though..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #34 July 5, 2002 QuoteIsn't it nice of you to be willing to pay a large price (i.e other's lives) for freedom. Aren't you willing to pay the same price? Haven't the men and women who served in your countries armed forces paid for your freedom with their lives? Do you not expect your military to be willing to lay down their lives to protect your freedom? I spent 6 years defending democracy and the U.S. I carry a handgun and have a concealed handgun license. I have pulled it once when someone tried to mug me (never bring a knife to a gunfight). It is like an AAD, you hope you never need it, but if you do, it can save your life. I agree that education is the key and there will always be people that abuse the right, same as people abuse all the other things already mentioned, vehicles, speed limits, etc. Hook Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyflier 0 #35 July 5, 2002 I really wasn't referring to military campaigns. I didn't mean to push any buttons. I respect anyone in the armed forces who puts their lives on the line to protect others. I spent several of my teenage years in the Australian Army Cadets and will proberly join the reserves next year after I finish studying. Having said that, I was referring to the implication of one being willing to pay a large price (non-military persons lives) for the freedom of non-military persons to carry guns. East Timor was a peace-keeping operation that resulted in 1 Australian death from a ND in an APC. 1 NZ solider was also killed. This topic in my view isn't about the military however. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #36 July 5, 2002 QuoteIsn't it nice of you to be willing to pay a large price (i.e other's lives) for freedom. Not so. I am willing to pay the same price (risk to my own or my friends' life/health/safety) for my freedom to own a firearm as I am for my freedom to jump. The price (the risk, not the harm itself), is shared by us all. I do think it's interesting that pretty much all the pro-gun people in this discussion have been Americans, and all the pro-control people have been from countries with gun control. I wonder how it would shake out if we make it another risk v. reward freedom topic? Drugs? Sex? Would the Americans be more pro-freedom in all categories, or is it really just dependent on which freedom is more acceptable to a particular national ethos?-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 4 #37 July 5, 2002 QuoteIsn't it nice of you to be willing to pay a large price (i.e other's lives) for freedom. See, this logic is just totally flawed. "You don't want to outlaw guns, so you're getting other people killed" That's just assinine. Ok, if I could just *poof* make all guns disappear, except for those in the hands of trained law enforcement/military - I would. But that's not going to happen. Didn't we have this discussion on here before? And the strict gun laws across the pond didn't really help that much.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyflier 0 #38 July 5, 2002 "Some people use the term "Sheeople" for people with thoughts such as this." Let me see if I've got this straight...I'm a sheeople (I'm guessing sheep) because I DON'T AGREE with you.Hhhhhhmmmmmmm.... This is my last post, I swear. It is 3.30am and I don't care anymore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #39 July 5, 2002 Quotebecause I DON'T AGREE with you.Hhhhhhmmmmmmm.... No...not at all...you missed the point. Sheeople refers to the type of person that thinks the government needs to worry about all the aspects of life somewhat like a Shepard tending a flock. While the sheeople just spend their lives wandering aimlessly in search of the next bite of grass. While the sheppard gets rich by shearing the sheep and occasionally having Lamb chops. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,379 #40 July 5, 2002 >I have just two words to say: gun control ... Ha! I love it! You really think this shooting was performed with a legally issued weapon, that would not have been in his hands if he couldn't buy it at "Tom's Gun and Sporting Goods Store?" Criminals will always be able to get guns. The only people you can keep gunless are people who obey the laws, and those are precisely the people I hope _do_ have guns. Imagine how bad this would have been if the undercover El Al employee had not been allowed to carry a gun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkM 0 #41 July 5, 2002 QuoteMy problem with guns is that some f#$@er in a pub might make that choice for me and THAT takes away MY freedom. This is a common fear and really unjustified. Some f'er can take you out any minute with their car when you're walking down the street. The same guy in the pub can take you out with a beer bottle. A good clubbing to the head can kill you just as easily as a shot to the chest. Knives and clubs are every bit as dangerous as a gun. The most common murder weapon in the US is a screwdriver. One big difference between a gun and knife though is that a person's physical size or strength doesn't matter with guns. Women can use a gun for defense just as effectively as a man. If we're going to have the means at our hands to kill each other, my vote is to at least keep the playing field even. And really the whole idea that when people have access guns means they go around wildly shooting each other has been disproven over and over again in cities and states that enact conceal carry laws. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Muenkel 0 #42 July 5, 2002 QuoteHa! I love it! You really think this shooting was performed with a legally issued weapon, that would not have been in his hands if he couldn't buy it at "Tom's Gun and Sporting Goods Store?" Criminals will always be able to get guns. The only people you can keep gunless are people who obey the laws, and those are precisely the people I hope _do_ have guns. Imagine how bad this would have been if the undercover El Al employee had not been allowed to carry a gun OK, does anyone know what has happened to the real Billvon? Bill, against gun control? What kind of liberal are you? Just when I think I have you figured out, you throw me a curve. _________________________________________ Chris Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #43 July 5, 2002 Quotemy vote is to at least keep the playing field even Heheheheehehee...."God created man....Sam Colt made them all equal." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jessica 0 #44 July 5, 2002 QuoteHa! I love it! You really think this shooting was performed with a legally issued weapon, that would not have been in his hands if he couldn't buy it at "Tom's Gun and Sporting Goods Store?" You know what's creepy about this? I haven't looked at any of today's stories yet, but the word we got last night was that shooter was subdued and disarmed when he was shot.Skydiving is for cool people only Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflir29 0 #45 July 5, 2002 Quotebut the word we got last night was that shooter was subdued and disarmed when he was shot. Good. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #46 July 5, 2002 What CNN is saying is he was shot after stabbing the El Al cheif of security. Looks like he had 2 guns and a knife, oh and he wasn't a US citizen, so if I'm correct he couldn't have gotten those gun via legal means.Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #47 July 5, 2002 QuoteIf you know you're going to start a flame war, then why the fuck post it? Mark, just like you, I have every right to state my opinion. I don't expect you to agree, but I do expect you to respect my rights ... I believe the only people who should be permitted to carry firearms are law enforcement officers. I will never own a gun -- and thankfully my country has strong gun control legislation. Since my first post on this issue, a man in Oklahome shot and killed his wife and his 3 year old daughter before taking his own life. A gun is a weapon of convienence, designed and made for just one purpose: killing people. When I talked about "innocent people" earlier, I was referring to people like this llittle girl who will never get the chance to grow up and experience the wonders life holds for us ... because someone she knew owned a gun, and chose to use it on her. The dude in LAX was heavily armed -- I doubt he could have wounded so many people with a knife... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skycat 0 #48 July 5, 2002 QuoteSince my first post on this issue, a man in Oklahome shot and killed his wife and his 3 year old daughter before taking his own life A woman in Texas killed all 5 of her childen by drowning them in the bathtub.Fly it like you stole it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasterfaller 0 #49 July 5, 2002 *** I doubt he could have wounded so many people with a knife... Just as long as it's with a knife and not a gun that makes it more acceptable ? A bat , a crowbar , a tire iron , a lamp , an extension cord , these are also weapons of convenience . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,379 #50 July 6, 2002 >Bill, against gun control? What kind of liberal are you? As I usually seem to annoy both liberals and conservatives about the same amount, I figure I'm the middle kind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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As I usually seem to annoy both liberals and conservatives about the same amount, I figure I'm the middle kind.
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