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markussprenger

Comparission of cross-braced canopies

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Guys - I'm considering to move from a Crossfire II 139 (loaded at 1.65) to a cross-braced canopy. I have +1800 jumps and am very current, so I feel confident that I can handle it. I tested a few cross-braced canopies, but don't have enough data to make a decision. I'm looking into either a Xaos or a Sensei (both around 120sf). Any recommendations? Any other canopy that I should test?

Markus

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Cross-braced anything at 120 ft2 is pig-ish. (imo). I said the same thing when I downsized from a Katana 135 to a Velo 120. "Just want to see what it's about, gonna jump the 120 and that's it.." The 120 felt like a much bigger canopy to me, front riser pressure was heinous, etc.(10 jumps on that). Jumped a 111, liked how it flew, didn't like the openings. (7 jumps on that, and a cutaway). Jumped the 103 and really liked it. Bought one (500 jumps on it now), now have a 96 as well. The 103 has great range and I would prefer it on weird wind days or on a off DZ landing. The 96 is tough to get back from long spots, but opens better than the 103. (for me with 30 jumps on it). Made 2 jumps on the 90 and thought it was too fast for me and not something I wanted to land in all possible conditions (off, downwind, etc.).

As far as the Xaos (only jumped the 27 in 98 and 88): very stable, great openings. Short recovery arc (compared to Velo). I would love to have a 98 for a work canopy (video and AFF). Openings are badass, everything is great but the swoop. Nice, safe landing, but it's not as (easy to go as) fast as the Velo. The 88 had great range, but I was too big for it at 2.6:1. Landings were more than I wanted to deal with.

Sensei (jumped the 101 3 times): Didn't like it. I like Brian, I like his canopies. I really liked the Jedei 150 I had for a long time. I didn't like the Sensei. It opens ok, is better to fly than a Sabre 2, but wasn't much hotter than a Katana. It's a very safe, entry level cross-braced canopy. (And might be a monster with longer lines...? Don't know, Brian knows way more about parachutes than I do, seems like he wants people to be safe...)

All that said, I'm just some schmuck with less jumps than you.

Good luck finding your next wing.

-Harry
"Sometimes you eat the bar,
and well-sometimes the bar eats you..."

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Why?

Seems like two big steps all at once. 40 sq feet and switching to an X-braced canopy.

Keep in mind that downsizes tend to become more significant the higher up you go in WL. So the jump from 1.65 up to 1.85 is going to be far more significant than the jump from 1.45 up to 1.65, even though the amount of downsize is equal.

Consider canopy sizing for a moment, and how the larger sizes tend to have a bigger gap between sizes. 190 to 170 is 20 sq ft, 150 to 135 is only 15 sqft, and 120 down to 107 is only 13 sq ft. The reason being that the higher up you get in WL, the bigger difference a smaller change makes.

Look the sizing on something like a Velo. They go from an 84 to a 79 to a 75. That last one is only 4 sq ft. I've jumped a 90 and an 84 back-to-back, and can you feel the 6 sq ft of difference.

What you're suggesting seems like a fairly big step in a couple different directions. Maybe consider an intermediate step of some sort. If you've really been jumping for 28 years, what's the rush now? Put a season (or even a half-season) on one more transitional wing, and then see how you feel. Maybe a smaller X-fire or a Katana?

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Hey Markus,

why not step on a 119 crossfire II? I'm sure it's a big difference in handling and performance.
And then you're at about the best load for performance on the crossfire II.
From there on you have a lot more benefit with the crossbrace canopies.

just my $0.02 - and the way I'm doing it ;-)

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davelepka

Seems like two big steps all at once. 40 sq feet and switching to an X-braced canopy.



IMO this will be less of a radical downsize than just going down 40 sq ft to another elliptical. Not saying that its a good idea because its still a big downsize, but crossbraced canopies are not more aggressive per se, just that they tend to get loaded higher.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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Dave makes a good point. However, I would suggest the Katana as the intermediate step instead of the xfire though. The katana's recovery arc is more similar to the recovery arc of a velo
"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

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IMO this will be less of a radical downsize than just going down 40 sq ft to another elliptical. Not saying that its a good idea because its still a big downsize, but crossbraced canopies are not more aggressive per se, just that they tend to get loaded higher.



Regardless, the fact remains that it's a big change in sq footage and a change in canopy type. The more 'new' you add at any one time, the more chances you have for getting caught off-guard.

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DcloudZ

Dave makes a good point. However, I would suggest the Katana as the intermediate step instead of the xfire though. The katana's recovery arc is more similar to the recovery arc of a velo



I'd pass on that option. Why jump a canopy that dives like a crossbrace, opens like a crossbrace, but has less power/distance potential than a crossbrace? I skydive for a living and I don't have any use for a Katana or anything like one. I have an 80 square foot Xaos 27 for AFF/swooping, etc and a 97 square foot Sabre2 for wingsuiting (which also swoops great). At work I have two rigs with Velo 90's, but am trading them for Storm 120's because they make more sense for the type of work jumps I do all week long. FWIW: I do around 850 work jumps a year.

To the original poster: you did not mention how much you weigh. I wouldn't want to give you a sizing recommendation without knowing that. I will, though, say that 120 square feet is a LARGE crossbraced canopy, so unless you weigh like 250 pounds I'd be looking at significantly smaller canopies.

Chuck, D-12501
AFF/TM/SL-I, MMPCI, PRO, PFC/E

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SkymonkeyONE



I'd pass on that option. Why jump a canopy that dives like a crossbrace, opens like a crossbrace, but has less power/distance potential than a crossbrace?



I'd agree with you.

To me the KA is a transition canopy for people who are building their experience with lower wingloadings. When you get to 1.8-1.9+ a crossbraced canopy makes more sense because it has more powerful controls.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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DocPop

***

I'd pass on that option. Why jump a canopy that dives like a crossbrace, opens like a crossbrace, but has less power/distance potential than a crossbrace?



I'd agree with you.

To me the KA is a transition canopy for people who are building their experience with lower wingloadings. When you get to 1.8-1.9+ a crossbraced canopy makes more sense because it has more powerful controls.

So you're condoning going from a Xfire2 139 to a Velo 103-111 in one step?
"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing than a long life spent in a miserable way." -Alan Watts

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Many people at that stage will do whatever they feel comfortable.

at OP jump number close to 2000 jumps.

OP should know what the fuck OP wants.

Go ahead and jump Velo 120 and tell me how that goes.

I know they sell em, but I haven't seen anyone that fly it.

I went from Katana 120 to velo 90 in one step, hell I go from flying 370 to 90 in one jump to the next.
Bernie Sanders for President 2016

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DcloudZ

******

I'd pass on that option. Why jump a canopy that dives like a crossbrace, opens like a crossbrace, but has less power/distance potential than a crossbrace?



I'd agree with you.

To me the KA is a transition canopy for people who are building their experience with lower wingloadings. When you get to 1.8-1.9+ a crossbraced canopy makes more sense because it has more powerful controls.

So you're condoning going from a Xfire2 139 to a Velo 103-111 in one step?

That's not what I said but now you ask I'd be happier for the OP to do that than to condone you jumping a KA135 at 240 jumps.

I'm saying that in a choice between a KA107 or a VE103 at around 2:1 I'd recommend the VE.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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DcloudZ



So you're condoning going from a Xfire2 139 to a Velo 103-111 in one step?



Reading back, I assume you're just trying to be inflammatory, since I actually said:

"Not saying that its a good idea because its still a big downsize..."

But I see you're getting your pants taken down in the San Marcos incident thread about your canopy choice.
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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DocPop

*********

I'd pass on that option. Why jump a canopy that dives like a crossbrace, opens like a crossbrace, but has less power/distance potential than a crossbrace?



I'd agree with you.

To me the KA is a transition canopy for people who are building their experience with lower wingloadings. When you get to 1.8-1.9+ a crossbraced canopy makes more sense because it has more powerful controls.

So you're condoning going from a Xfire2 139 to a Velo 103-111 in one step?

That's not what I said but now you ask I'd be happier for the OP to do that than to condone you jumping a KA135 at 240 jumps.

I'm saying that in a choice between a KA107 or a VE103 at around 2:1 I'd recommend the VE.

bwahaha, get'em! this is why i love this site! entertainment for days!:D

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OK, quick update: I did 4 jumps on the Sensei 121 today. The openings very definitely faster and not as predictable as the Crossfire. Flight characteristics were very much as expected: faster than the Crossfire, MUCH steeper turns, longer recovery arch, good flare. I do have to agree that 121sf is probably too big for me (I am 205 lbs). It seems that you got to downsize 20% from an elliptical to a x-braced canopy. I will try to test a Xaos 108 and a Sensei 111 in the next week. I'll keep you posted.

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Downsize to a Crossfure 1 if you can find it. Only if its onebof the canopies that wasnt modded because of the recall.. Ive seen many X1 pilots outfly Velo's and other xbraced canopies repeatedly. They open way better too. Night and day cimpared to the xfire 2. Xaos 27 youll be chopping constantly. The X21 is better.

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DocPop

Lol yeah - XF1s are fast. Mainly when they fold in half and fall out of the sky!



You obviously didnt read my whole post...And the Crossfire 1's that had that issue were all modified by Icarus. There are still XF1s out ghere that were not part of that recall.

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980

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Xaos 27 youll be chopping constantly



I agree with your impression that their post was a joke as obviously the statement I have quoted cannot possibly be serious!



Xaos. Crossbraced canopy. 27 cells. Made by Precision. Known for being a cutaway machine. 6 more cells than a Xaos 21. Wheres the joke?

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Known for being a cutaway machine.




The joke is your statement above.

Quote

Wheres the joke?




Quote

6 more cells than a Xaos 21.



I am familiar with it thanks, have more jumps on em than you have jumps in total on your profile. Have a few hundred on a 21 too so maybe I can tell em apart I guess.

Anyway your statement seems patently ridiculous to me.

As someone who jumps a Xaos 27 and has done so for years.

As Someone who has jumped a lot of other crossbraced canopies.

As someone who has more saves from people chopping their 21 cell Velocities and using my reserve packjobs than from any other canopy.


Maybe you would care to throw the basis for your statements in here so we can see how they compare, eh?

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First, I havent updated my profile in years, secondly youve jumped ONE Xaos 27. Ive packed literally a half dozen different ones thousands of times and as a rigger with over 35,000 packjobs I can tell you that the 27 has the highest cutaway rate of any crossbraced canopy Ive ever seen. Some of them are so bad, that if youve never packed one, youre almost guaranteed to pack a chop within 50 jumps. To each his own I guess. Whats next, youll tell me you have a few hundred jumps on a Stiletto without a chop so that means its not a spin machine? Come on now...

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texmex

First, I havent updated my profile in years, secondly youve jumped ONE Xaos 27. Ive packed literally a half dozen different ones thousands of times and as a rigger with over 35,000 packjobs I can tell you that the 27 has the highest cutaway rate of any crossbraced canopy Ive ever seen. Some of them are so bad, that if youve never packed one, youre almost guaranteed to pack a chop within 50 jumps. To each his own I guess. Whats next, youll tell me you have a few hundred jumps on a Stiletto without a chop so that means its not a spin machine? Come on now...



Are you still joking?

Stilettos are no more of a "spin machine" than other high aspect ratio ellipticals.

I believe they got their reputation because they were:

a) such a popular canopy so lots of jumps were made on them.
b) an early fully elliptical canopy and many people caused their own spin-ups due to sloppy body position when they transferred off their Sabres.

Your broad generalizations about "chop machines" and "spin machines" don't do your credibility any favours.

How many jumps & chops do you have on Xaos 27s?
"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

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