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Katscan

Container Options

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I am a few jumps away from my A-license and have been doing research on getting my own rig (talking to my instructors, reading dropzone, etc.) Nonetheless, I still have some questions and I'm looking for opinions.

I want to go the completely used rig route, but I'm having trouble finding a complete rig in my size. I'm about 5' 7-8" and my weight is 130lbs (exit weight of about 150-160lbs). I'm looking for a main that is similar to my exit weight.

The two things I care about most on a rig is safety and comfort. I've jumped several different rental rigs and all have different levels of fit. Some were downright uncomfortable while others were just a few tweaks short of being a decent fit. I would consider myself slim with fairly wide shoulders and good length torso. My thighs aren't that big as I've had to cinch down all the way on the thigh straps with every rental rig I've tried. Which brings me to my questions...

Should I consider just buying a new container and used main/reserve?

Keep shopping around and maybe hope to find something close and have it sent in to get the harness changed?

How to choose between container manufacturers? I've looked at all the big ones (UPT, Mirage, Sunpath, Aerodyne, Velocity, Wings) and it seems they all have small differences and many many options. Magnetic vs Flap for risers, Skyhook, Hip Rings, Laterals, Aluminum/Plastic Hook knife, etc.

Which options are good for a beginner that wants to eventually learn to freefly?

Also it would be a great help if I could get some opinions on why a certain manufacturer may be better than the other.

Thanks in advance for anyone that read my whole post (sorry it's a little lengthy) and took the time to respond.

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Few people on here would recommend a 150 for your first canopy.

A 1:1 wing loading at 150 lbs requires more skill than a 1:1 wing loading at 200lbs. One explanation that isn't the total story is that for the same energy a pendulum with a shorter length has a shorter period (swings faster). Think of a canopy as a pendulum and at 150 or so the lines are getting short enough that it becomes 'twitchier', the same energy input produces a faster swing.

In the old days we say a 150 was a 'high' performance canopy no matter the load. The use of the word high may not make much since these days, higher performance than a bigger similar canopy maybe at similar load.

Lots of people your size have successfully started with a 150 but many more have not a good experience.

IF you meet all of the downsizing guidelines in some of the articles on here with rental 170's maybe150. Depends on your skill level. Talk to your conservative instructors. Since your getting used anyway starting with a 170 and moving to a 150 with the same rig would be doable.

No I wouldn't consider new. That's my advice to all new jumpers. You size isn't so unusual and you should be able to find a rig. Easier than the 5'3" woman or 250lb guy. About the leg straps. What's keeping you from getting the leg straps tight is that the leg strap PADS are too long for your thighs. The stitching that holds them to the leg strap limits how tight they can get. Leg pads are easily modified or replaced with shorter pads by your local rigger.

Get a good used rig with an appropriately sized reserve, freefly friendly if you must :S, and a used 170 zp canopy. You can move to a 150 in a couple hundred or more jumps. Don't worry about gadgets and gizmos. Most of them are selling features, not function features. An RSL, BOC, freefly riser covers is about all you need to worry about. And if you so desire or it's required where you are add an AAD.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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Quagmirian

If you want to go the new container route, two manufactures offer cut price entry level containers with no bells and whistles at a competitive price.

There's the Shadow Racer by Jumpshack and the Genera by Rigging Innovations.

Both offer you a custom harness and a few other options.



You can go wrong with a racer and they are fairly cheap to!

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Start here www.Jumpshack.com you can get the best fitting container along with Main and Reserve canopies. Used gear too. All information is on the web site or call.

I have four reserves rides using the “Parachute Labs” deployment system, all worked correctly.

B|

I Jumped with the guys who invented Skydiving.

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Quagmirian

There's the Shadow Racer by Jumpshack and the Genera by Rigging Innovations.

Both offer you a custom harness and a few other options.



I will definitely have to look into the "Racer" if I go the new rig route as more than one of you have mentioned them. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. In the long run however I do want to mention that I don't mind spending more for a container if I know it will be safer.

3331


I have four reserves rides using the “Parachute Labs” deployment system, all worked correctly.



This type of information really helps. I am sorry you had your reserve rides, but knowing it has always worked out helps me to have confidence in the manufacturer.:P

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councilman24

A 1:1 wing loading at 150 lbs requires more skill than a 1:1 wing loading at 200lbs. One explanation that isn't the total story is that for the same energy a pendulum with a shorter length has a shorter period (swings faster). Think of a canopy as a pendulum and at 150 or so the lines are getting short enough that it becomes 'twitchier', the same energy input produces a faster swing.

IF you meet all of the downsizing guidelines in some of the articles on here with rental 170's maybe150. Depends on your skill level. Talk to your conservative instructors. Since your getting used anyway starting with a 170 and moving to a 150 with the same rig would be doable.



Thank you for mentioning the pendulum effect, I did not realize this occurs with smaller canopies. Canopy size is currently an ongoing discussion with my instructors. I started on a 220 and am currently on a 170. I've downsized several times with the blessings of my instructors. For my last 8 jumps on the 170 I only had one PLF, the rest were all stand ups. I do plan on talking to my instructors more as I get closer to purchasing my rig.

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Be aware that Racers are the rig people love to hate. Including me. If you like them you love them, if you don't (and about 90% of jumpers or more don't) you hate them. They tend to be somewhat local in popularity. Check with the riggers in your area to see if they service them.

Also start here for some good info not specific to PD canopies.
http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/choosing1.pdf
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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Katscan

For my last 8 jumps on the 170 I only had one PLF, the rest were all stand ups. I do plan on talking to my instructors more as I get closer to purchasing my rig.



First off, you are right to talk to your instructors before downsizing. Listen to them as they have seen you fly and land.

That being said, you should be consistently not having to PLF except under the worst conditions (15+ mph downwind or crosswind) before you think about downsizing. I would highly recommend you take a look at this chart/article about how and when to properly downsize, and what you should be able to do under canopy before you think about downsizing: http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf.

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councilman24

Be aware that Racers are the rig people love to hate. Including me. If you like them you love them, if you don't (and about 90% of jumpers or more don't) you hate them. They tend to be somewhat local in popularity. Check with the riggers in your area to see if they service them.

Also start here for some good info not specific to PD canopies.
http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/choosing1.pdf



I probably have no right to ask this but why the hate? As a newbie I want to learn why certain containers or manufacturers may be better than others. iE, Hard to service, poor durability, lack of safety features?

I want to reiterate that I am willing to spend more for a safer and good quality container if needed.

Thank you for the info on canopy selection. I agree on a lot of the points that the author makes and will take them into consideration.

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evan85


I would highly recommend you take a look at this chart/article about how and when to properly downsize, and what you should be able to do under canopy before you think about downsizing: http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf.



HAHA thats great, I actually stumbled upon that chart in my browsing/searching of DZ on how to pick a rig. I haven't read it all the way through, but have been following the chart. Thanks for the reminder to read this article fully. :D

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I would venture to say the article is more important than the chart. Here's another good one: http://www.dropzone.com/safety/Canopy_Control/Downsizing_Checklist_47.html. It's important that you be able to do all of these things on your current wing before you downsize. Remember, you don't size your canopy for the best conditions you're likely to face, but the worst.

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Katscan

Canopy size is currently an ongoing discussion with my instructors. I started on a 220 and am currently on a 170. I've downsized several times with the blessings of my instructors



Don't let this trick you into thinking that moving rapidly from one canopy to another is the norm.

Get a 170. They're great to learn on, easy to find second hand and hold their resale value.

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Katscan



I probably have no right to ask this but why the hate? As a newbie I want to learn why certain containers or manufacturers may be better than others. iE, Hard to service, poor durability, lack of safety features?

I want to reiterate that I am willing to spend more for a safer and good quality container if



because skydivers are like middle school students who love to hate the child that is different.

Issues:

Ugly (matter of opinion, I can name one other more popular brand that makes what I feel is a consistently ugly rig.)

Rsl system has issues, search racer rsl. Connected on both sides, can snag. Just downloaded the manual and it says the issue is helmet design.... What about a gopro on a well designed helmet? An influential master rigger I know won't pack them with rsls, calling the racer rsl suicide.

Reserve closing loop can be tightened after packing, making a hard pull that a rigger did not do, but takes liability for.

Very different to pack reserve, some say harder, many riggers not current in procedure if not a popular rig locally, some charge more.

Resale value may be worse than a popular brand

Per the manual, needs a 2 pin AAD, which are not as popular, thus harder to buy and sell.

No skyhook, if that matters to you (search skyhook if you don't know)

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Choice is simple in my opinion:
1. Eliminate any system that doesn't have a workable single sided RSL. Listen to the posters here, and on other web threads, about the RSL issue.
2. Will your local riggers will pack your brand of parachute? Check first, or be ready to ship your rig out of state every 6 months for a repack.
3. Consider the MARD (main assisted reserve deployment) decision. I'm going to get one. They work.

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Katscan

***
I would highly recommend you take a look at this chart/article about how and when to properly downsize, and what you should be able to do under canopy before you think about downsizing: http://www.bigairsportz.com/pdf/bas-sizingchart.pdf.



HAHA thats great, I actually stumbled upon that chart in my browsing/searching of DZ on how to pick a rig. I haven't read it all the way through, but have been following the chart. Thanks for the reminder to read this article fully. :D

I would suggest that you stay away from dropzone.com forum advice when picking a used rig, canopy size advice and anything that may or may not get you killed. You don't know who the hell any of these people are.

As far as what gear to jump is concerned as a total newbie, dropzone.com is only really good for the classified section. Get enough experience in the sport from locals so that you can sort the wheat from the chaff before you take advice from this forum.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

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weaverd

***If you want to go the new container route, two manufactures offer cut price entry level containers with no bells and whistles at a competitive price.

There's the Shadow Racer by Jumpshack and the Genera by Rigging Innovations.

Both offer you a custom harness and a few other options.



You can go wrong with a racer and they are fairly cheap to!

CANT, I need to start proof reading

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dpreguy


2. Will your local riggers will pack your brand of parachute? Check first, or be ready to ship your rig out of state every 6 months for a repack.
3. Consider the MARD (main assisted reserve deployment) decision. I'm going to get one. They work.



Thanks for mentioning my local rigger. I hadn't thought about consulting them and seeing which brands they pack. This will probably weigh in on my selection of a rig.

I have read about the MARD and am very much considering it(still need to read a bit more though). Safety is the top priority for me and this seems to be a good added feature to have.

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Fast


I would suggest that you stay away from dropzone.com forum advice when picking a used rig, canopy size advice and anything that may or may not get you killed. You don't know who the hell any of these people are.

As far as what gear to jump is concerned as a total newbie, dropzone.com is only really good for the classified section. Get enough experience in the sport from locals so that you can sort the wheat from the chaff before you take advice from this forum.



Thanks for your concern and warning. I treat any opinions and responses on the forum as added info for me to learn. I would like to think that most people on this forum are just trying to help and say what they think is best for the limited info that is provided.

Ultimately my selection will be based on advice from my instructors and people at my local drop zone. Those people know me best and know my abilities.

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Katscan

***
I would suggest that you stay away from dropzone.com forum advice when picking a used rig, canopy size advice and anything that may or may not get you killed. You don't know who the hell any of these people are.

As far as what gear to jump is concerned as a total newbie, dropzone.com is only really good for the classified section. Get enough experience in the sport from locals so that you can sort the wheat from the chaff before you take advice from this forum.



Thanks for your concern and warning. I treat any opinions and responses on the forum as added info for me to learn. I would like to think that most people on this forum are just trying to help and say what they think is best for the limited info that is provided....

Over 10 years I have gotten just as much bad advice from "experts" at the DZ as on dropzone.com - the key is to question everything and research everything - no matter the source - but use every source availible as you will find people over the world have different things on their mind that the locals may not be talking about.

Regarding gear, anything you buy should be inspected by a rigger you trust...

That being said, trust nothing I just said.:P

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