Cutting the loop or pulling the pin?

[RiggerLee 61]

I also think it needs a little more tweaking but I'm actually a bit more optimistic about it then you.

First off I think it is contained, at least initially, better then you think. Fist off there is a seal consesting of two threaded plugs with a o-ring in between "sealing" around the pin side of the cable. It's a contributing factor to pull force and has potential issues with it. It seals around a 7*7 cable so there has to be some leakage but it's by no means just an open rocket motor on that side. I've seen way cruder systems work very well.

The other end where the "piston" will be pushed out of the cylinder will vent but I'm not sure it's as big of an issue as you seem to think. It's not that strange of a system Look at a number of fire arms as an example. The gas systems on a number of guns vent in exactly the same way at the end of their power stroke. Look at the cup on the end of an AK where the piston is pushed out of the gas block. Or an AR system where the cup on the bolt carrier is blown off the end of the gas tube venting directly into the receiver. And those are systems with far greater pressures, 60,000 psi range, and far greater gas volumes. Look at a revolver and how the gas can freely leak from the gap between the cylinder and the forcing cone on the back of the barrel. And that's right by your hand. The Rhino is odd in that it fires from the bottom, and you can get a burn if you hold your finger over the gap there, but with the proper grip and just a small amount of separation it's no issue. There is a lot of length and volume between the end of the cylinder and the end of the housing The gas has the opportunity to expand and mix with cold air long before it blow out onto your hand. I Don't think I'd have an issue with it. I'll volunteer my hand. It's not that big a charge.

I'm not sure it would be that big of a logistical issue. I'll site a president. Primers. It's an open explosive. You can ship them through UPS. It does get labeled with a hazardous cargo label and it does have to go ground, no over night air, and there is generally an extra fee. But you can ship them all day long. And that's by the thousand. I've got a box over in the corner that was shipped to me with... 10,000 or it might be 15,000 primers, depending on which ones are in there. And what we are talking about is not that much bigger and way more stable then a magnum rifle primer. Oh and you can ship gun powder too. Same sort of rules but it ships every day. And no storage requirements for any of it. So I guess it's a question of how these devices are classified. These types of squibs are not that uncommen. They are actually used in a lot of applications. It might not be a big deal.

There are a number of things that I would like to see improved on the system Better sealing is one of them. But I'm more concerned with improving the pull force and how long it can be maintained in the event of a hard pull or difficulty in shifting the pin. Once the gas leaks by that's it. You got nothing. I think there are some other option, like a spring contained with in the housing around the cable where it could continue to pull, and pull, and pull... rather then this puff of air which once it's lost the thing is dead.

I think it's interesting. I don't think it's perfect but I'm not ready to dismiss it. I think it has the potential to be a very feasible alternative to a cutter at least on some systems. And it could solve a lot of issues with the reliability of the reserve pilot chute deployment. And you can't say that that is not an issue any more. The bodies are stacking up.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[df8m1 19]

I agree it is interesting and don’t mean to sound like I am dismissing it’s potential, I just see some issues with this stage of development. Like everything new, the proof is in the pudding so to speak.. lol

Classification is everything with explosives.. The Red ATF book I have has many classifications of explosives and end uses for them. Every explosive substance that is sold is tracked and traced so the ATF can audit the sellers to see if there is one person who is buying large quantizes of what ever, and they may choose to pay them a visit which could be a problem deepening on the circumstances.. In any case, the difference between legal and not, is enforcement of any pertinent laws.. But that is a totally different subject to argue about LOL.. I only mentioned it because it could be a different deal than just ordering a new cutter..

A CO2 operated demo on a table is totally different than a full power test for sure.. I am eager to see more video and pull force and dwell numbers, while watching gas discharge at both ends of the housing. That is where the high speed thermal camera would make a really narly video! lol

Edit:

I also am very interested to hear what the other container and AAD manufacturers think of the information that is available and if they will bless it..

[JohnSherman 1]

Quote

Given that the pin end of the rip cord end of the cylinder is not sealed,

It has a breach block or it would not work.

Go to:
1st Test of pusher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbxeT4hnNjE

1st Test of Puller with one pusher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3gZZtHN3q8

1st Test of Pusher/Puller: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zvjas7HKArI

1st Test of In-line puller: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyP7m-HkXQY

All of these tests were with a Gas generator.
Sure it get warm but we have had no gas escape heat problem.

The ATF tells us that what we are doing is exempt.

We are way past the point of how much force is required to move the pins.

The CO2 thing is not how we test the IOpener it has been used as a demo tool and inspection tool quite successfully.

Video of rigged system comming this week. We have a Racer and a Javlin being packed for video demo as I type.

Stay tunned.

JS

[df8m1 19]

I can get behind the one in the second video for sure, I have seen the patent for that long ago.

Personally I can see gasses expelling out of the pin end of the housing when the plug seal is blown off, but that is just me I guess...

Glad to hear that you have addressed the ATF as that could get you into trouble quick lol.. How about the Air lines??

Keep posting information, It will be interesting to see how this turns out in the long run..

[df8m1 19]

I see that the rubber seal / plug that is stuck into the pin end of the housing blows out in the videos… I knew there had to be some kind of reduced orifice to create a sealing effect of some kind to allow pressure to build, but was not expecting a rubber cork lol…

I wonder how consistent the rubber is size wise (shrinkage and all given it is a press fit that is keeping it in place), I imagine the housings are pretty consistent. How does the rubber react to extreme hot and cold? Does it get hard when it is cold making it harder to pull the pins past it?

Like you said Lee, once the pressure is gone that’s it, if the plug blows out before the pins are extracted in a hard pull situation, (where the cylinder pressure would build up higher than if the pins moved easer,) then that’s it. However to be fair, lets consider the same failure mode with a cutter, in where it activated but did not cut the loop. With the rip cord, in theory, it appears that should the power assist fail to extract the pin(s), the jumper can still pull the handle and manually extract them to initiate pack opening, where with a pinched cutter, the reserve has the potential to be locked in the container depending on where the cutter is located (above or bellow the reserve). I believe it is this failure mode distinction that John is trying to achieve, and the proof of concepts he and Karel have made shows promise.

I know I am busting Johns balls here, and that is because he is promoting for sale as it is seen in the videos, and we appear to be in agreement that what is shown is not ready for production, in our opinion of course. Sometimes creative people get tunnel vision, and a challenging voice can create a moment of pause for the creator. Personally I do not mind being challenged, in fact I count on my team to do just that, and if I could not address the concerns pointed out, then I would need to take a step back and find out why.

Challenging the idea is a critical part of good product development, and even is done in the educational system as part of the processes for higher level degrees. I have spoken to Karel many times, and he knows me as a calm and level headed thinker that often sees things from different perspectives, but I have not had as much contact with John, so I hope he knows as much as I am challenging him, it is to push him to achieve a higher level with it, and not to settle for something made from a bunch of parts lying around the shop… That’s fine if we are stuck on the island lol.

Personally I do not have a dog in the race. I only play with Government jumpers and given the testing that it takes to get a new pyro device, let alone a life saving device, approved, I don’t see this being a problem for me if there is any thoughts like that given my challenges, shall we say, to what I have seen on the videos, and my limited experience with pyro units..

Even if it remains at this level of development, it is the market and the manufacturers that will make or brake it. Details like “can I still take my rig as a care-on when I go to Florida?” or “can I take it on an air plane at all?” That will be very important to be able to answer with documentation from the airlines that identify this specific device as being approved to carry-on or check.

[RiggerLee 61]

If you look at the line drawing of the device. There's a PDF there. You will see that the pin end of the puller is threaded. A plug with a hole through it is threaded into that end of the cutter. There is an O ring and then another threaded plug. The two are tightened against each other to compress the O ring and seal it against the cable. He's controlling the pull force with that. Possible issue with force, temp, age, leakage, etc. but there is no way that it could just blow out. It's a secure part of the puller. The "piston" that he is using right now is two ball swedges turned down with o-rings in between them for the seal. I think he could do better with a cylindrical part with grooves and a shank on the end that could be swedged on the cable. I think he could get a better seal and lower pull forces out of a 1*19 cable even though it's stiffer then a 7*7. Even better if the piston had a tubular shank that extended through the seal to give it some thing smooth to slide on. The cutter would have to be longer over all to protect that stiff section but it would seal much better.

With a little effort I think this could really go some place. I'm just not sure it's there yet. I see what he has right now as a prototype cobbled together with existing off the shelf parts. It's a bit beyond that but not much. With a little development I think it could be an answer to some of our issues.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[pchapman 261]

Since people are talking about how to pull reserve pins, that reminds one of the old Sentinel Micro Puller... so I put up a post in History & Trivia on that. (http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view&post=4573133)

[df8m1 19]

The videos where I see a black ring blowing out of the pin end must have been earlier designs then...

Had a thought though that might show how well it is sealed after it fires under load... What if the assembly was submerged in water? Then any escaping gasses would be clearly visible as bubbles.. It would be important to load the pins down so it would require at least 100lbs of pull force to move them. This would allow the internal pressure to reach the upper end of a bent pin or hard pull condition, and show if there is any pressure leakage and from where....Just a thought..

I also sketched up how I would approach this concept... Features would be, that it would be sealed, have a 4 to 6 inch stroke, manually pulling the ripcord would not disturbed the power assist unit, (if that wording makes sense lol) Basically the power assist module would be passive, (i.e., would not be moved even if the ripcord is pulled), until it is pyro activated..

The rip cord would not be fully extractable though when pulled. There would be at least 6 to 8 inches of pull (more than enough to pull the pins up into the housing), but not fully removable when pulled none the less.

Oh! and I think it might work with Mr. Booth's new ripcords as well...

Unfortunately I have way too much on my plate to build one, but my mind can’t help thinking about this kind of stuff lol…

I am curious to see the next episode in the series..

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Walt,

Quote

It would be important to load the pins down so it would require at least 100lbs of pull force to move them.

How about rethinking that one?

Do you want it to require a 100 lb pull to manually activate your reserve ripcord?

Or did I misunderstand your comment?

JerryBaumchen

[flydog 0]

The way I read it Jerry was to load them to 100 lbs for testing the power unit at the high end of pressure. This would allow you to know what the unit does in a worst case when the pressure builds in the unit.

[df8m1 19]

flydog

The way I read it Jerry was to load them to 100 lbs for testing the power unit at the high end of pressure. This would allow you to know what the unit does in a worst case when the pressure builds in the unit.

And you would be correct. Basically dead heading the thing, but allowing it to move the cable to see what happens as it completes its stroke.

[RiggerLee 61]

I would like to see the force curve with it locked down not moving to see how fast the gas leaks out and the force decreases in the worst case of a hard pull. He has published some graphs but I'm not sure how they were measured. If the pins are moving freely then that might explain the very quick drop off in force as it vents out the end as the piston leaves the puller.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[JerryBaumchen 1,048]

Hi Walt,

Quote

And you would be correct.

That was not the 1st time I've misunderstood something.



Thanks for the clarification,

JerryBaumchen

[JohnSherman 1]

Ok Gang here is the next step/test.

http://www.jumpshack.com/iopener.htm

Go to the bottom of the page and click on the link to You Tube.
The Video is only 8 seconds but it is self explanitory.
The Tissue paper at the handle is for hot gas detection. It came out clean. We also put some at the Squib and got no burn.
This thing is tigh enough that we believe we can hold it in our hands while firing
It took us all week to get this on done but Monday we will do it again and with other rigs.

[skytribe 16]

I'm still a little concerned how the AAD manufacturers Vigil, Cypres are going to react to this. (Argus are out of business so I don't think you'll have too much concern from them)

Are they going to allow this pin pusher/puller on the devices ?

The fact it works is one thing, the legal aspects is another. Both from a AAD manufacturers and from a rigger point of view if you installed and something occurred - who's taking the blame as you now have AAD manufacturer, Puller manufacturer, Rigger who put the two together.

I guess the discussion changes from whether it will work to how this can be used with existing AAD's to avoid legal issues.

[RiggerLee 61]

How long is the power stoke/cylinder length? I've got this new wings in my lap looking at how much space there is between the end of the housing and the stiffened top flap of the reserve. There's a big gap over the shoulder where the RSL is. It's soft and compressible. I was just wondering how many designs are like that world wide. To do an in line like this you would almost have to change the housing placement to lock it down to the top flap which would mean at least a moderate redesign of the RSL system as well.

What are you thoughts on how the housing should be attached. In the past a lot of the pullers actually required a clamp not just hand tacking to hold them and you're generating even higher forces. Some times the even used a metal plate to reinforce the top flap they were mounted to.

All of a sudden installation gets more complicated with housing now mounted on flaps making it harder for them to fold back and all the rest of this that could require enough of a redesign to affect the TSO. What are you thoughts so far on compatibility and over coming this with different systems? Yes, this is a gauntlet. I'm challenging you to provide a drawing, an instruction, even just a description of how it could be made compatible with each system on the market. Take your time. No rush, but you're going to have to figure this out before any one can give you any money. And frankly we're just dying to hear you're answers.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[RiggerLee 61]

I'm wondering if the AAD manufacturers might not be delighted. Now there is a part that they do not make or contract them selves that can be blamed for any failure. if I was them I'd make some vague blanket statement about how they do not guaranty any after market parts, and that the responsibility is on the other players involved but not to forbid it. And then just set back and pray that every one buys them. In fact if I was them I might just have a price hike on cutters, you know inflation and all that. Exchange rate. That's it exchange rate! Now they can still make all the money and ditch all the liability.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[df8m1 19]

skytribe

I'm still a little concerned how the AAD manufacturers Vigil, Cypres are going to react to this. (Argus are out of business so I don't think you'll have too much concern from them)

Are they going to allow this pin pusher/puller on the devices ?

The fact it works is one thing, the legal aspects is another. Both from a AAD manufacturers and from a rigger point of view if you installed and something occurred - who's taking the blame as you now have AAD manufacturer, Puller manufacturer, Rigger who put the two together.

I guess the discussion changes from whether it will work to how this can be used with existing AAD's to avoid legal issues.

John and I talked about this in Daytona and I expressed concern where John dismissed it. Personally if I was a rigger (which I am not) I would not touch a rig with any Frankenstein assemblies that in any way related with the reserve, for the very reason that all manufacturers will be blaming the other and they have better legal representation that the average rigger does I imagine.

To Lee’s points;

I looked at the force graphs on the sight and see that a peek of 100ish lbs was generated, but quickly decayed, (win in 2 sec if I recall correctly). Was this test conducted with the ripcord locked, or was the cable able to move and the piston be ejected from the cylinder? If the piston was moving that would explain the short burst of pressure as the area in the cylinder increases as the piston moves forward, Additionally, I imagine that there is a quick thermal loss, so the gasses contract pretty quick I bet.

If the piston was not able to move, then either there was a good about of leakage, or fast cooling of the gasses that resulted in a rapid drop in pressure.

As for your legal perspective… I totally agree with you. This might end up being something you just sit back and watch as the manufacturers and riggers blame each other, lol

[JohnSherman 1]

Quote

How long is the power stoke/cylinder length? I've got this new wings in my lap looking at how much space there is between the end of the housing and the stiffened top flap of the reserve.

The stroke is controlled for about 2 inches then it just slows down to a stop. We get about 6 inches on the in-line.
I will video the firing of a Javlin monday. I have a wings rig in the shop and plan to build one for it. I don't anticipate any problems.

Here is another view for the In-line firing on a packed rig:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ts_CsqV5jA

Actually Lee, the designer can locate the Gas port anywhere along the housing they choose. So as to provide enough housing for a flap. You just don't get as much slack on the firing side. The chamber does have to be locked down. Two turns of 5 cord seems to do the job.

[RiggerLee 61]

2 sec.? Unless I'm reading it wrong I think the sample rate is 1/1000 of a sec. The whole graph covers like 1/100 of a sec. If you hit ctrl + you can kind of zoom in. It looks to me like that 100 lb. spike last 2/1000 of a sec.

Lee

Lee
[email protected]
www.velocitysportswear.com

[skytribe 16]

I'm sort of in agreement that the Frankenstein setup is one which each of the assembly manufacturers might want to wash there hands of in the event of an incident which leave the rigger as the one that ultimately installed the device. I'd be a bit retiscent about opening myself up to liability on a Frankenstein setup.

That said, I think the device has merit. The existing cutter designs are not perfect and this is an alternative.

As to Cypres and Vigil embracing these alternative - I think that's pretty wishful thinking. I would think they would want to control the entire system and not allow 3rd party changes. If they say "No Way, only our cutters", any Frankenstein approach - although they would work, would open the rigger who installed / packed a device against the manufacturers guidelines if something happened.

And don't container manufacturers have some say in whats approved to be installed on there container. Don't they also have to be convinced to allow this.

[df8m1 19]

I couldn't make it zoom in when I looked at it, so I could not clearly see the time scale, that sounds shorter than I would like personally.

Could you tell if the piston was able to move or not? I know you asked about the leakage rate earlier. Personally I would want to see it hold working pressure to generate at least 50lbs of pull for a period of at least 3 sec to show that it was sealed reasonably well.

Realistically from activation altitude there is only a second or two to play with for pack opening, but I would expect to see full power available at the pin to get et moving at the for at least a second, and then drop at a rate equal to the piston displacement and any cooling of the gas.

I am sure John really loves us right now lol..

[JohnSherman 1]

Quote

I am sure John really loves us right now lol..

I'm LMAO at the wild mad speculation. This thing works as it is. Just look at todays video.

However, this has been good, for example I used tissue paper to disprove the gas exaust theorie at the handle and around the generator. I would not have done that if David had not mentioned it.

[df8m1 19]

I’m here to help!! LOL…..But seriously....

Like I said before, being challenged is a good thing, never a bad thing, and you have chosen to look into the challenges and see what there may or may not be about it. Good for you. Like I also said, if you can not answer a challenge, there is a problem.

Have you given any thought to taking the Argus and offering a complete AAD? I’m sure you have, but I am wondering what your thoughts are about it. I took a serious look at it, but in the end I am building my own units that operate completely different, and it would take a redesign to get the Argus to do what I want, plus the liability of the sport market. But, you on the other hand have ½ of the system, and the Argus would be the other half…

Edit: Just another helpful hint from the peanut gallery... It would be nice to see what the pull force measurement is on the rip cord each time, before you fire the power unit.

[skytribe 16]

Going the Argus route and offering a complete system may be the most palatable for riggers to install. Aviacom pulled out of the sport market because a cutter redesign was needed and they didn't want to/couldn't afford the cost of new cutters. I'm not sure if they are still in business but this solution obviously avoids that work.

As the cutter was the reason for withdrawal of approval - how does using a pin puller/pusher effect this ?. Ie. I want to install this in a Javelin with Argus.

My thought would be shake the market up. Get the Argus - Rename it and create a complete solution.