Rig size for new skydiver, help!

[RPrice375 0]

Hey guys, I am finishing up my A license and will be looking to buy a rig. My question is what size can I expect to be using once I have my A license and how many jumps will I get out of it before its time to drop down a size. I am 6'1" and 170 lbs and I am assuming I will be looking for a 170 sqft main. I was looking at used rigs but I'm also not ruling out a new one as long as I can get some use out of it. I talked to someone from Aerodyne and they said I can fit a zpx 168 canopy in their ICON I4 container and go all the way down to a zp 132 before I need a smaller one. That's all well and good, but I have no idea what kind of experience level I need to be using a 132 at 170 lbs. If it's a matter of 300 jumps or a few years then I can see spending the money but if its less I'll have to start looking used. Any input would be great as far as a time frame and number of jumps I would need to safely be under a 132 at 170 lbs. Thanks!!

[mrubin 0]

At this point you shouldn't worry about the smallest main that you could fit into a container. Look for gear that's the proper size for you right now. You might decide later that you do not want to keep downsizing to smaller canopies. A lot of skydivers find a canopy size that they are happy with and stay there even when they have the skill and experience to downsize.

You should also look for something larger than a 170. Your wingloading is based on your exit weight, not your body weight.

And the most important piece of advice I can give you is to talk to your instructors before taking anyone's advice on the internet.

"I fly because it releases my mind from the tyranny of petty things." - Antoine de Saint-Exupery

[GooniesKid 0]

RPrice375

Hey guys, I am finishing up my A license and will be looking to buy a rig. My question is what size can I expect to be using once I have my A license and how many jumps will I get out of it before its time to drop down a size. I am 6'1" and 170 lbs and I am assuming I will be looking for a 170 sqft main. I was looking at used rigs but I'm also not ruling out a new one as long as I can get some use out of it. I talked to someone from Aerodyne and they said I can fit a zpx 168 canopy in their ICON I4 container and go all the way down to a zp 132 before I need a smaller one. That's all well and good, but I have no idea what kind of experience level I need to be using a 132 at 170 lbs. If it's a matter of 300 jumps or a few years then I can see spending the money but if its less I'll have to start looking used. Any input would be great as far as a time frame and number of jumps I would need to safely be under a 132 at 170 lbs. Thanks!!

1.30WL just getting licensed? Sounds like an awesome plan..hey, why don't you try getting into FF or Wingsuit flying..i heard it is super easy and the cool thing to do these days.
Guess demo'ing stuff is for old dinosaurs.
There's a bunch of used gear that fit a nice buck like you at 6'1" 170 lbs, but hey, why not get a whole new rig.

[RPrice375 0]

Thanks for the sarcasm! What wing load should I be looking at then? Again, NEW HERE!! That's why I'm trying to use this site. Thought some of you experienced guys could give me some QUALITY info as well as my instructor. I was also looking at used rigs and they look to be around $4500 for anything decent. If I could get a new one for $6500 and use a couple different canopies in it that would get me a few years of use I would be ok to spend more. That's all I am asking here. Thanks in advance for any help.

[RPrice375 0]

mrubin

At this point you shouldn't worry about the smallest main that you could fit into a container. Look for gear that's the proper size for you right now. You might decide later that you do not want to keep downsizing to smaller canopies. A lot of skydivers find a canopy size that they are happy with and stay there even when they have the skill and experience to downsize.

You should also look for something larger than a 170. Your wingloading is based on your exit weight, not your body weight.

And the most important piece of advice I can give you is to talk to your instructors before taking anyone's advice on the internet.

Thanks! I'm definitely using my instructor as well but this forum is full of experience so I figured I'd use it.

[Bertt 0]

At your weight, I would think more like a 190 to start. A container that holds 190 max could probably also hold 170 or 150 later, but check with each manufacturer for specifics.
This thread might also interest you:
http://www.dropzone.com/forum/Skydiving_Disciplines_C3/Swooping_and_Canopy_Control_F4/Canopy_Downsizing_Chart_by_Brian_Germain_P3470220/

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[NWFlyer 2]

RPrice375

Thanks for the sarcasm! What wing load should I be looking at then? Again, NEW HERE!! That's why I'm trying to use this site. Thought some of you experienced guys could give me some QUALITY info as well as my instructor. I was also looking at used rigs and they look to be around $4500 for anything decent. If I could get a new one for $6500 and use a couple different canopies in it that would get me a few years of use I would be ok to spend more. That's all I am asking here. Thanks in advance for any help.

Something to think about. If you buy a new rig for somewhere in the $4500 range (which is a pretty reasonable budget for a decent used rig that will likely have good resale value) you'll be able to get the majority of that value out of the rig when/if you sell it. That won't be the case with a new rig.

You can also pull the AAD out and put it in your next rig if you decide to downsize. You might decide not to downsize your reserve (because bigger reserves are a nice thing - few people look up at their reserve and say "wish that sucker was smaller!") so you might be able to use that in the next rig as well.

Meanwhile you've got an extra $2K that you can use for a well-fitting custom jumpsuit (a really nice tool to have in your toolkit), skydives, coaching, or canopy courses, or all the other things that will make you a better and safer skydiver.

Think of new gear like new cars - the guy that drives it off the lot takes the biggest hit in depreciation.

(Just to give you two examples from my own experience.

First canopy, a Spectre: purchased with 400 jumps and a brand new lineset for $850. Put 200 jumps on it and sold it two years later for $800.

Second canopy, a Pilot: purchased with 200 jumps for $900. Put 300 jumps on it, put a new $300 lineset on it right before I sold it, and sold it for $1150 3 years later.)

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[RPrice375 0]

Perfect!! Thanks for the info. Exactly what I was looking for.

[RPrice375 0]

NWFlyer

***Thanks for the sarcasm! What wing load should I be looking at then? Again, NEW HERE!! That's why I'm trying to use this site. Thought some of you experienced guys could give me some QUALITY info as well as my instructor. I was also looking at used rigs and they look to be around $4500 for anything decent. If I could get a new one for $6500 and use a couple different canopies in it that would get me a few years of use I would be ok to spend more. That's all I am asking here. Thanks in advance for any help.

Something to think about. If you buy a new rig for somewhere in the $4500 range (which is a pretty reasonable budget for a decent used rig that will likely have good resale value) you'll be able to get the majority of that value out of the rig when/if you sell it. That won't be the case with a new rig.

You can also pull the AAD out and put it in your next rig if you decide to downsize. You might decide not to downsize your reserve (because bigger reserves are a nice thing - few people look up at their reserve and say "wish that sucker was smaller!") so you might be able to use that in the next rig as well.

Meanwhile you've got an extra $2K that you can use for a well-fitting custom jumpsuit (a really nice tool to have in your toolkit), skydives, coaching, or canopy courses, or all the other things that will make you a better and safer skydiver.

Think of new gear like new cars - the guy that drives it off the lot takes the biggest hit in depreciation.

(Just to give you two examples from my own experience.

First canopy, a Spectre: purchased with 400 jumps and a brand new lineset for $850. Put 200 jumps on it and sold it two years later for $800.

Second canopy, a Pilot: purchased with 200 jumps for $900. Put 300 jumps on it, put a new $300 lineset on it right before I sold it, and sold it for $1150 3 years later.)

You make a great point. Thanks!

[TracyS 0]

RPrice375

Thanks for the sarcasm! What wing load should I be looking at then? Again, NEW HERE!! That's why I'm trying to use this site. Thought some of you experienced guys could give me some QUALITY info as well as my instructor. I was also looking at used rigs and they look to be around $4500 for anything decent. If I could get a new one for $6500 and use a couple different canopies in it that would get me a few years of use I would be ok to spend more. That's all I am asking here. Thanks in advance for any help.

Welcome to the forums AND to skydiving.
You'll quickly learn on here, just like any other forums, that there are certain individuals who rarely give any useful advice and just want to talk shit when they have nothing of value to add to the conversation.
It's how they feel good about themselves for some reason.
The best you can do with those individuals is to ignor them and focus on the responses that offer valuable info.
You've already gotten some good responses and there will probably be more to follow.
Some of the people on here that will offer you good advice, based on years of experience and an interest in your safety and long life in the sport are:
Popsjumper
DSE
Davelepka
Skymama
Billvon
Airtwardo
NWFlyer
And many others.
Spend some time reading through older threads and you'll begin to see which people are offering good advice based on REAL experience.

A word of warning though. If you ask a question, don't expect any of these folks to give you the answer you want to hear. They are gonna shoot straight with you.
If you ask a question that you should know better than asking, i.e. "is it ok to fly a camera at 50 jumps?", or "I have 75 jumps and am ready to start swooping, any guidance?" Stand by, you're probably not gonna like some of the responses you get.
If you ask good honest questions that show you are truly trying to learn and improve your knowledge, these folks will offer you a wealth of information.

Don't try to go too fast as far as downsizing goes. Thoroughly learn the canopy you start with. Take a canopy course such as those from Flight-1 or Brian Germain.
My advice, with my vast experience of about 80 jumps, would be to look for used gear with a main somewhere in the 190 Sq ft size. Also the model of canopy is important.
As a starting point, you might consider going to Performance Designs website and reading the descriptions of the different models of canopies to get an idea what model canopy might be a good starting point.
http://www.performancedesigns.com/products.asp

Used gear can be a really great way to get started, but be cautious before parting with your money.
Have the gear sent to your rigger for independent inspection before you pay for it. Once you've sent your money, you may have little or no recourse if the rig doesn't fit or isn't everything it was described to be.
Read other post on here regarding purchase of used gear and you will find a lot of valuable advice and some horror stories of people that didn't exercise due diligence and got burned.

I bought a used rig off of the classifieds here on dropzone.com and went through the process of having it sent to my dz to be inspected. Everything was exactly as advertised and I got a great rig with exactly the kind and size of canopy I was wanting.
I paid the seller once I got the ok from my rigger and have been very happy with my purchase. The money saved buying used instead of new has allowed me to make more jumps and pay for a couple of canopy courses, furthering my education in skydiving.
Blue Skies

Canopies must all be female. If I treat mine good, she gives me a good ride. If I slap her in the bag, she will dump me like a turd.

Courtesy of PRE7117, love that line.

[RPrice375 0]

TracyS

***Thanks for the sarcasm! What wing load should I be looking at then? Again, NEW HERE!! That's why I'm trying to use this site. Thought some of you experienced guys could give me some QUALITY info as well as my instructor. I was also looking at used rigs and they look to be around $4500 for anything decent. If I could get a new one for $6500 and use a couple different canopies in it that would get me a few years of use I would be ok to spend more. That's all I am asking here. Thanks in advance for any help.

Welcome to the forums AND to skydiving.
You'll quickly learn on here, just like any other forums, that there are certain individuals who rarely give any useful advice and just want to talk shit when they have nothing of value to add to the conversation.
It's how they feel good about themselves for some reason.
The best you can do with those individuals is to ignor them and focus on the responses that offer valuable info.
You've already gotten some good responses and there will probably be more to follow.
Some of the people on here that will offer you good advice, based on years of experience and an interest in your safety and long life in the sport are:
Popsjumper
DSE
Davelepka
Skymama
Billvon
Airtwardo
NWFlyer
And many others.
Spend some time reading through older threads and you'll begin to see which people are offering good advice based on REAL experience.

A word of warning though. If you ask a question, don't expect any of these folks to give you the answer you want to hear. They are gonna shoot straight with you.
If you ask a question that you should know better than asking, i.e. "is it ok to fly a camera at 50 jumps?", or "I have 75 jumps and am ready to start swooping, any guidance?" Stand by, you're probably not gonna like some of the responses you get.
If you ask good honest questions that show you are truly trying to learn and improve your knowledge, these folks will offer you a wealth of information.

Don't try to go too fast as far as downsizing goes. Thoroughly learn the canopy you start with. Take a canopy course such as those from Flight-1 or Brian Germain.
My advice, with my vast experience of about 80 jumps, would be to look for used gear with a main somewhere in the 190 Sq ft size. Also the model of canopy is important.
As a starting point, you might consider going to Performance Designs website and reading the descriptions of the different models of canopies to get an idea what model canopy might be a good starting point.
http://www.performancedesigns.com/products.asp

Used gear can be a really great way to get started, but be cautious before parting with your money.
Have the gear sent to your rigger for independent inspection before you pay for it. Once you've sent your money, you may have little or no recourse if the rig doesn't fit or isn't everything it was described to be.
Read other post on here regarding purchase of used gear and you will find a lot of valuable advice and some horror stories of people that didn't exercise due diligence and got burned.

I bought a used rig off of the classifieds here on dropzone.com and went through the process of having it sent to my dz to be inspected. Everything was exactly as advertised and I got a great rig with exactly the kind and size of canopy I was wanting.
I paid the seller once I got the ok from my rigger and have been very happy with my purchase. The money saved buying used instead of new has allowed me to make more jumps and pay for a couple of canopy courses, furthering my education in skydiving.
Blue Skies

Thanks for taking the time on the reply. All great info! With everything I have got so far it looks like Ill be searching the classifieds for a used 190. I'll continue to do my homework, I still have time. I just wanted to start to get an idea. Thanks again!

[skybytch 259]

Quote

Any input would be great as far as a time frame and number of jumps I would need to safely be under a 132 at 170 lbs

Maybe a few hundred jumps, maybe a thousand, maybe never. Every jumper is different. You might not ever have the skills to safely fly a 1.4 wingloading, or you could have those skills within a few hundred jumps. You might decide you are happy with something in the 150-170 range for the rest of your skydiving career. There is no rule that says you have to downsize.

[RPrice375 0]

skybytch

Quote

Any input would be great as far as a time frame and number of jumps I would need to safely be under a 132 at 170 lbs

Maybe a few hundred jumps, maybe a thousand, maybe never. Every jumper is different. You might not ever have the skills to safely fly a 1.4 wingloading, or you could have those skills within a few hundred jumps. You might decide you are happy with something in the 150-170 range for the rest of your skydiving career. There is no rule that says you have to downsize.

Thanks! I was under the impression this was the norm. I'll worry about my first rig and safely flying it for now. Thanks again.

[ChrisD 0]

GooniesKid

1.30WL just getting licensed? Sounds like an awesome plan..hey, why don't you try getting into FF or Wingsuit flying..i heard it is super easy and the cool thing to do these days.
Guess demo'ing stuff is for old dinosaurs.
There's a bunch of used gear that fit a nice buck like you at 6'1" 170 lbs, but hey, why not get a whole new rig.

I might be wrong but I kinda think some of this sarchasim is warrented! Goonies Kid is actually looking out for this individuals best interests...

Implied in the OP's original question is a bit of knowledge that most bigginers don't have. The immediate sarchasitic comment when the OP doesn't get the answer that they want to hear. The pandereing by a few to show others that they can answer any question without thinking and thus show others that they are more knolegable...

And then we have someone who wants to "rate" the quality of responses like some sort of score card??? And takes the time to list, in their opinion, who is worth reading and who isn't??

What the fuck happened to personal responsibility? And learning as much as you can?

The "KID" is right on by pointing out the logic expressed here, the wing loading is the point and to take part in this scam question as compared with "helping" a newbie is not the point.

Most all AFF, A lic kids have a fundamental understanding of the wing loading issue. It is a requirement for the course and of the lic.

By ignoring this issue in a real sense the OP is stating that they were not paying attention in their course. Or the instructor didn't teach it? Additionally the SIM is quite clear regarding the smaller canopy sizes and the differing flight characteristics. The OP apparently hasn't bother to read the SIM either?

What is not said here is just as important as what has been said....

C

I am disgusted by this constant trend here regarding future downsizing and purchase discussions by these individuals purportedly asking for biggineer advice, and the responses generated by supposedly more experienced individuals. All your doing is supporting the number one cause of injuries and death. Every time you answere this kind of question, wheather you understand this or not,... your supporting swooping by inexperienced people.

If that's not what the OP wants to hear, then tha'ts too bad....

I for one don't need to hear back from a newbie what they want to hear or not, nor do I need my responses "rated" by an obvious scammer....

"and go all the way down to a zp 132 before I need a smaller one."

"Thanks for the sarcasm! What wing load should I be looking at then?"

"Exactly what I was looking for. "

ETC, etc,....

Again the "rating" system in action....

Absolutley nothing about demoing, and all about future downsizing...

Goonies Kid is spot on.

But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

[BIGUN 1,049]

More important thought is, "what size reserve will you purchase?"

You'll want no more than 1:1 W/L.. around the 218 range.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

First thing:

Is the 170# your "stepping out of the shower" weight?
Or your actual "Exit Weight"?

Exit weight is how much you weigh going out the door.
You, clothes, rig, other gear (helmet, alti, ect.).
Step on a scale when you are ready to get on the plane. You might be a bit surprised. With an appropriate sized rig, I'd guess you are a bit over 200# exit weight.

Read Brian Gemain's chart based on exit weight. You may want to start under a 210, not a 190. Almost for certain not a 170.

Finding gear in that size range can be a challenge.
Finding a complete rig (that fits you) will be worse.

But piecing one together isn't all that difficult.

First, choose a reserve size. Keep in mind that you will be flying it after a malfunction and cutaway, possibly landing off, while flying it for the first time. Size it conservatively.

Second, choose a main size and type. If you are going used, you may have to be flexible on the type. There are a bunch of satisfactory models by all the manufacturers that are suitable. You won't be on it forever, so don't worry too much about it being the "perfect" one (especially the colors).

Last, choose the rig. Finding one that fits is most important (well, make sure it's safe of course). The easiest way is to get your measurements and compare them to the rigs you are looking at. Measuring procedures are on the manufacturers websites (have someone else measure you, you can't measure yourself, it doesn't work). Get the serial number of the rig from the seller and send it all to the manufacturer. They can tell you if it will fit, or if it can be resized (and how much it will cost to resize).
Like canopies, for your first rig, don't worry too much about the "perfect" one, just make sure it is in good shape and fits properly.

Used has the advantage of price, and the worst of the depreciation being done already. If you take good care of it, you can usually sell it for most of what you paid. And that size of gear usually sells pretty easily.

Search around for the pitfalls and processes of buying through the classifieds. the phrase "Rigger as Escrow" will bring up the generally accepted ways of purchase.
Make sure you work with your local rigger to avoid buying something you can't use or something that is junk. It happens. We like to think of ourselves as a "Big Happy Family", but that simply isn't true. There are liars cheats and outright thieves that jump. And some of them prey on unwary purchasers in the classifieds.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[GooniesKid 0]

RPrice375

Hey guys, I am finishing up my A license and will be looking to buy a rig. My question is what size can I expect to be using once I have my A license and how many jumps will I get out of it before its time to drop down a size. I am 6'1" and 170 lbs and I am assuming I will be looking for a 170 sqft main. I was looking at used rigs but I'm also not ruling out a new one as long as I can get some use out of it. I talked to someone from Aerodyne and they said I can fit a zpx 168 canopy in their ICON I4 container and go all the way down to a zp 132 before I need a smaller one. That's all well and good, but I have no idea what kind of experience level I need to be using a 132 at 170 lbs. If it's a matter of 300 jumps or a few years then I can see spending the money but if its less I'll have to start looking used. Any input would be great as far as a time frame and number of jumps I would need to safely be under a 132 at 170 lbs. Thanks!!

hey OP, you might want to check out this article on Buying your First Rig:
http://www.dropzone.com/safety/Gear_and_Equipment/A_Guide_to_Buying_Your_First_Skydiving_Gear_873.html

[GooniesKid 0]

ChrisD

I might be wrong but I kinda think some of this sarchasim is warrented! Goonies Kid is actually looking out for this individuals best interests...

1 person understands me...how i think...how i put perspectives in a different way. No joke, but I'm touched and it hit me straight in the chest like 2 tons of bricks.

I love you man (as in a brotherly love or comrade)

[Southern_Man 0]

RPrice375

***

Quote

Any input would be great as far as a time frame and number of jumps I would need to safely be under a 132 at 170 lbs

Maybe a few hundred jumps, maybe a thousand, maybe never. Every jumper is different. You might not ever have the skills to safely fly a 1.4 wingloading, or you could have those skills within a few hundred jumps. You might decide you are happy with something in the 150-170 range for the rest of your skydiving career. There is no rule that says you have to downsize.

Thanks! I was under the impression this was the norm. I'll worry about my first rig and safely flying it for now. Thanks again.

It is not the norm, although some people do downsize more aggressively. I flew 210s loaded at 1:1 (maybe slightly above when I gained some weight) until I had 300 jumps and just downsized to a 190. Just worry about getting something that fits the right size canopies and that you can jump safely now.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[RPrice375 0]

Big thanks to everyone, even Goonieskid. lol. I know you're looking out. All great info and input. You guys definitely helped me get pointed in the right direction. Thanks again!

[TracyS 0]

ChrisD

And then we have someone who wants to "rate" the quality of responses like some sort of score card??? And takes the time to list, in their opinion, who is worth reading and who isn't??

I for one don't need to hear back from a newbie what they want to hear or not, nor do I need my responses "rated" by an obvious scammer....

ChrisD,

I beg to differ with your opinion that Goonies Kid is looking out for the OP's best interest. There is nothing in his first post that has the slightest hint of being helpful and comes across as just another smartass trying to feel good about himself by putting someone else down when they asked an honest question.

As to my listing who is worth reading and who is not. You might want to go back and do a little basic reading. I simply listed, for the OP, some of the people that I have noticed giving real help, based on experience. I also indicated that there are many others that also give help without trying to belittle someone. I never indicated anyone that was not worth reading, but instead suggested to the OP to ignore the smartass comments and focus on the people that are offering real help.

What's wrong, get your panties in a bunch because you weren't on the list?

As for your not needing your responses "rated", well, it's a forum cupcake. When you post something, you open yourself up to response and critique. Don't like it, don't post. You seem to forget that forums exist for the exchange of information AND debate.

As to your comment about someone being a scammer, I haven't seen anything on this thread that would indicate that someone is trying to run a scam on anyone. Maybe you're searching for a different word, not sure. Keep trying.

Edited for misspelled word.

Canopies must all be female. If I treat mine good, she gives me a good ride. If I slap her in the bag, she will dump me like a turd.

Courtesy of PRE7117, love that line.

[TracyS 0]

GooniesKid

***

I might be wrong but I kinda think some of this sarchasim is warrented! Goonies Kid is actually looking out for this individuals best interests...

1 person understands me...how i think...how i put perspectives in a different way. No joke, but I'm touched and it hit me straight in the chest like 2 tons of bricks.

I love you man (as in a brotherly love or comrade)
Goonies, never sure what to make of you dude. On one hand you come off smartass and trying to deride someone for asking a question. Then you post this trying to help and point the OP toward something useful.
You're still on for that beer if we meet up sometime. But remember, I still don't put out on the first date. Cheers!

Edited for misspelled word.

Canopies must all be female. If I treat mine good, she gives me a good ride. If I slap her in the bag, she will dump me like a turd.

Courtesy of PRE7117, love that line.

[GooniesKid 0]

TracyS

******

I might be wrong but I kinda think some of this sarchasim is warrented! Goonies Kid is actually looking out for this individuals best interests...

1 person understands me...how i think...how i put perspectives in a different way. No joke, but I'm touched and it hit me straight in the chest like 2 tons of bricks.

I love you man (as in a brotherly love or comrade)
Goonies, never sure what to make of you dude. On one hand you come off smartass and trying to deride someone for asking a question. Then you post this trying to help and point the OP toward something useful.
You're still on for that beer if we meet up sometime. But remember, I still don't put out on the first date. Cheers!

Edited for misspelled word.

We, sir, need to kick back, after a day of epic jumps, and throw down some brew and watch the sunset...first one on meh.