Whose fault was it?

[Baksteen 84]

I guess forgetting your countdown is the same as not looking at your wrist while trying to fix that twist.

I am from a small DZ too, with a student landing area which is quite large and has lots of outs and only a few minor obstacles.

We have no radios as far as I know, but students might get visual signals for the final stage of their first five jumps. I certainly never did.

You've got a point about alti-reliance though.
I recently found out that I was correcting my eyes by my alti, instead of the other way around.
This resulted in basically good landings and patterns, but usually WAY off target.

ETA I fixed this now, some ten jumps ago.

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[peregrinerose 0]

Quote

Also, this is a small dz, so there is little to no air traffic. Students have first priority to the airspace, so there is no need to fly a strict landing pattern.

I just cringed a little bit to hear that. How are those same students going to react after jumping at a dz where landing patterns are not actively encouraged when they go to a boogie with 30+ other canopies in the sky? Landing pattern, at least to me, is part of surviving a skydive. People who have no landing pattern that is even remotely predictable can cause big problems.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[skydave238 0]

Quote

I just cringed a little bit to hear that. How are those same students going to react after jumping at a dz where landing patterns are not actively encouraged when they go to a boogie with 30+ other canopies in the sky? Landing pattern, at least to me, is part of surviving a skydive. People who have no landing pattern that is even remotely predictable can cause big problems.

I never said they dont learn to fly a consevative landing pattern. I should have said, we dont focus on strict landing patterns for the first part of their progression, but we DO expect them to learn that towards the end. We have the ability to do that at our dz. You might not want to or cant do that at a bigger dz.

Ready...Set...Go..!

SkydiveSwakop

[sartre 0]

Quote

Are you saying that AFF students land on their own on their first jump?

No, actually I'm not exactly saying anything. I was asking for clarification because I wanted to understand the reasoning behind not using an altimeter.

I was in no way attacking anything or anybody, just asking for an explanation. Personally, I think it's smart to ask questions when you don't understand something.

[skydave238 0]

Quote

I was in no way attacking anything or anybody, just asking for an explanation.

Likewise, i wasnt attacking you or anyone. Sorry if thats how it came off.

Ready...Set...Go..!

SkydiveSwakop

[riggerrob 558]

We sort of agree on this point.

Jump-masters are not expected to teach pilots basic stick-and-rudder flying skills.
However, jump-masters should contribute to "finishing school" for new jump pilots.
Jump-masters start by telling new jump pilots what altitude, heading and landmarks to use for jump run.
Jump-masters can give steering corrections on jump run, reminders of altitudes, etc.

[pilotdave 0]

You really teach first jump students how to read an aircraft altimeter? Even AFF students that will go above 10,000 feet?

Dave

[RedBaron 0]

Quote

Quote

how do they come up with a hard deck for EP's without an alti

How can it be too overwhelming to teach a student altitude awareness when it is such a basic necessity for safety?

-----------------------------------------------------

Yep - this is another good example of those in the sport assuming that a very important piece of equipment (or training) is "overwhelming." Poor decision making I believe. An altimeter is one of the most important pieces of equipment, and I believe should be worn by every jumper every time - from the first time. Just understanding what objects look like at different altitudes (which can only be verified by an altimeter) is very important, as well as defining key landmarks / landing patters etc. There is NO GOOD REASON NOT TO WEAR ONE...in my opinion.

----------------------------------------------------------

Wow, hold on there. No one is saying we dont teach S/L students altitude awareness. Just because they dont jump with an alti, doesnt mean we dont teach them altitude awareness.
Brief eg. They shout/count "arch thousand two thousand....five thousand check". By "five-thousand check" they should have something above their heads. From there normal canopy checks, canopy control and Ep's if necessary. Malfunctions that can be rectified like: closed end cells; slider stuck; line twists, the student has a time span to rectify. Normaly 5 seconds.

----------------------------------------------------------

Great process - but I still believe an altimeter should be worn at all times - from the first jump...for the reasons stated above.
----------------------------------------------------------

Quote

how they set up their landing pattern

Are you saying that AFF students land on their own on their first jump? No. They are brought in by a JM or Inst on the ground.

-----------------------------------------------------------

WRONG! Not ALL programs do things the way YOUR program does. Think outside your world. In my training, we did EVERY landing alone - with no radio contact to instructors...period. As I've found since beginning this sport - there are many different training methods at different DZ's. Let's NOT assume everyone does it the same way...

----------------------------------------------------------

You might argue that if you have an alti, you can correspond where your Inst is flying you with your alti (downwind leg, baseleg etc), but then IMO you are becoming totaly reliable on your alti to judge how high you are. Without an alti you learn to judge height by visualy looking. (Am i making sense?)

----------------------------------------------------------

This is a silly argument..."becoming totally reliable on your alti to judge how high you are." HUH? I think that's the obvious objective. I now use a Skytronic GFX - so that I know EXACTLY where I'm at to the foot. It's been very helpful! BTW - do you believe most people (newer jumpers) can tell the difference between say, 300 and 500 ft? That can mean the difference between landing a pattern correctly or not, and I don't believe most new jumpers CAN tell that difference. Altimeters should be worn at all times by all jumpers. There is NO GOOD REASON NOT TO WEAR ONE (in my opinion).

----------------------------------------------------------

Here you do 3 ground assisted landings, and 5 (or more depending on the student) unassisted landings under supervision from a JM or Inst on the ground, who will bring the student in at any point he feels the student needs help. So you learn to form your own altitude awareness. Also, this is a small dz, so there is little to no air traffic. Students have first priority to the airspace, so there is no need to fly a strict landing pattern.

Quote

And if AFF students can handle reading an altimeter from jump one, why not a S/L student?

S/L students do jump with an alti (as i have now found out). It just seems that at some dz's they only start jumping with an alti during the freefall part of their progression.

As a whole, I dont disagree with S/L students jumping with alti's. In fact, I like the idea. But i also trust and respect the Instructors that i work under. They have been training S/L students for over 20 years, and there have never been any serious student incidents.

----------------------------------------------------------

Well, the DZ I jump at is owned / operated by a DZO that has been in the sport 40 years, and has more than 30,000 jumps. He insists that everyone wear an altimeter when jumping. He's also progressive, and willing to listen to differing opinions by instructors and others. That's how he's stayed in touch with the necessary changes in the sport. We should all do the same.

----------------------------------------------------------

Dave

edit to add: I'll discuss this with our CI this weekend and see what he thinks.

Red Baron
www.kneeriders.com

[Ether 0]

Quote

It just seems that at some dz's they only start jumping with an alti during the freefall part of their progression.

I didn't jump with an alti during my IAD jumps, so I learned how to set up a proper landing pattern first with radio assistance and then more by "feel", by judging distance and altitude by sight. When I started PFF and had an alti, I found that if I checked my altitude below 800 feet or so, I was relying too much on the numbers and less on what my eyes were telling me. Consequently I had poorer accuracy until I decided that once I had a canopy safely over my head, it was time to ignore that thing on my wrist and go back to using my eyes.

Disclaimer: low jump numbers, so I have no idea what I'm talking about.

Looking for newbie rig, all components...

[stanlholmes 0]

Quote

I teach AFF and it's in my FJC.

Make your students aware of their surroundings.

You are an above average instructor. I absolutely yield to your skydiving experience. I've sat in 3 FJC's and it was never mentioned. Of course 2 of those were in an Otter, so I couldn't have seen the darn thing anyway.


I teach primary flight training. My students have had several simulators and have an altimeter 24 inches in front of them. It's very common for them to see it, but not be able to interpret it or make any changes because of it, at least early in their program. Not to mention they aren't under the added stress of preparing to jump out of the a/c. IMHO, there are more critical things for the 4th jump student to be concerned about. We all trust our rigger to pack our reserve. Your 4th jump student trusted someone else to pack his main. He should be able to trust his instructor and the pilot to find the proper altitude.

From a skydiving point of view, I'm a rookie, so take this for what it's worth.

Stan

[skydave238 0]

Quote

Not ALL programs do things the way YOUR program does.

You are absolutly right about that.

Quote

In my training, we did EVERY landing alone - with no radio contact to instructors...period.

..."becoming totally reliable on your alti to judge how high you are." HUH? I think that's the obvious objective. I now use a Skytronic GFX - so that I know EXACTLY where I'm at to the foot. It's been very helpful!

Im just curious. If you are a first jump student, with no ground instructor helping you, and your altimeter stops working, then how would you except the student to land safely???

Quote

There is NO GOOD REASON NOT TO WEAR ONE (in my opinion).

I cant argue with you or anyone there. But IMO, being totaly reliable on your alti to safely fly your canopy is silly.

Ready...Set...Go..!

SkydiveSwakop

[hukturn 0]

I say the instructor. Primarily beacuase you are student who knows very little. But, I am sure that you have been taught to do exactly as the instructer sys. So, what if the plane lost a wing and you were lower than your pre-planned jump altitude? The pilot is going to tell you guys to get out...should you second guess it? The instructor fucked up. End of story.
Catch 22 - Were YOU aware of your altitude during the jump? If not, you should still fail the jump because that is a requisite to all static line and AFF courses. Altitude awareness is a very important aspect of your skydiving career.

[AFFI 0]

Quote

I say the instructor.

Agree...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[pcrt 0]

Why do we Americans always want to know who's fault it is?

Take responsibility for what you do.

Jumpers are always double checking each other. It can save a life. If you see something not right, speak up, don't jump until you feel it's safe to do so.

~Paul Creel SCS-5015

[cpoxon 0]

Quote

I would put it on the Instructor.

Yes, YOU are responsible for your skydive. Yes, YOU should be checking alti before exit.

However, YOU are a student and the instructor assumes moral, if not legal, responsibility for his/her students.

Right. Seeing as this allegedly took place in the UK, Section 1 (Conduct and Control of Sport Parachuting) Para 3 (Responsibility) Sub-Para 3.3 of the BPA Ops Manual says,

Quote

Student Parachutists (see Section 2 - Designation and Classification of Parachutists) may only parachute under the control of a BPA Affiliated Club and under the supervision of a CCI or BPA instructor authorised by a CCI. Such instructors will be responsible for their training and parachuting activities.

Section 8 (Parachuting Limitations) Para 4 (Opening Heights) Sub-Para 4.2 says,

Quote

Student Parachutists jumping ram-air parachutes 3,000ft AGL

Quote

You guys who do not let students wear an alti...WTF????

Section 6 (Equipment) Para 4 (Instruments) Sub-Para 4.1 says,

Quote

Altimeters must be worn by all Student Parachutists (other than Tandem Student Parachutists), jumping Piggyback equipment.

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[Baksteen 84]

Quote

Im just curious. If you are a first jump student, with no ground instructor helping you, and your altimeter stops working, then how would you except the student to land safely???

Please let's not go there
This argument, of course, works both ways:
"If you are a first jump student with no alti, and your radio stops working, then how would you expect the student to land safely?"

ETA: In reply to your actual question: I'd turn into the wind as best I could, try not to drift, and flare "when I could see the grass blades"

"That formation-stuff in freefall is just fun and games but with an open parachute it's starting to sound like, you know, an extreme sport."
~mom

[Yossarian 0]

just curious, why does the ops manual state that all student parachutists must wear an alti while using piggyback equipment? why wouldnt one be required while using a chest mount reserve?

[riggerrob 558]

Quote

just curious, why does the ops manual state that all student parachutists must wear an alti while using piggyback equipment? why wouldn't one be required while using a chest mount reserve?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It has been so many decades - since chest-mounted reserves disappeared from civilian skydiving schools in North America - that the question is no longer relevant.

[brianfry713 0]

You should always know your altitude before jumping. It doesn't matter who's fault it is, it's your life on the line. It sounds like you were wearing an altimeter. Most airplanes descend on jump run for a number of reasons. If you knew the student in front of you only got 3k, then you should realize that you'll be getting less.

It's your decision on whether to get out or not. If you don't have as much altitude as you want either ask for more or ride the plane down. Altitude awareness is probably the most important skill to have in this sport.

[cpoxon 0]

Quote

just curious, why does the ops manual state that all student parachutists must wear an alti while using piggyback equipment? why wouldnt one be required while using a chest mount reserve?

They are, once they've done a 15 second delay. The rest of the sub-para says,

Quote

Also altimeters must be worn by parachutists carrying out planned delayed openings of 15 seconds or more, (other than Student Parachutists jumping Traditional equipment, on their first successful 15 second delay).

My guess would be that since squares are much more steerable than rounds, with greater distance being covered, being aware of you altitude is important and most courses involve some flight path training relating to altitude.

Also, 15 seconds is the most anyone can be reasonably expected to count accurately, so after that, deployment is dependant on altitude, hence requiring an altiemeter.

But as Rob said, it's mostly irrelevant. Only two centres in the UK do rounds anymore and one (if not both) progress to freefall via retraining to square parachutes.

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live