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davepend

Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury)

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I think the thing that is being confused is backflying versus being directly under/over the tandem.

People are not saying that you can't backfly while filming a tandem. They are saying you can NOT be in the airspace directly below or above the tandem pair, no matter what position you are flying in.

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Again guys if you have that much of an issue with it (and rightfully so) call the DZ and ask the DZO. If the DZO allows it, start leaving comments about it on the rating tool on dz.com.

Norm Kent could get on here and PJ would say he was right and Norm was wrong and old.

It's not hard to figure out where his videos are shot at least the one in question. If you don't know just ask.

Either way be safe PJ.

"You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out."

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And the only way to ensure that it doesn't is to not backfly under tandems.



Let's fix that to not FLY in any way directly under tandems

below but off to the front is what I thought was the money shot

(busy, moving camera makes bad video, even if it's "fun" for the cameraman and TM. Loose harnesses on the passenger with the TM doing odd acrobatics makes lousy video, even if it's "fun" for the cameraman and TM. etc. Isn't the point about the customer's safety and the video production dedicated 100% to the customer?)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

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Forums like this tend to be the new chronicles of our lives




So Jarrett are you willing to risk your dads house, car, and everything else he has worked for as long as you have been alive? And to you Mr. DZO who would let him keep doing so, are you also willing to risk the cost to defend this minors actions you were paying him to do, in a court of law ???

Not trying to pick on ya Jarrett dude, but trying to get you to look at this from another point of view you may not have thought of yet, the leagle ramifacitions for all the players involved, the lawyers love to sue everyone (right Mr. RW) and your under age, guess who they will seek money the from.



Nah...That can't happen ...The person posting isn't the real Jarrett. Therefore his argument can be that he wasn't *really* flying under a tandem.

Although I had a tremendous respect for this young man, after several PM's and reading posts here and in the video forum (remember the "I hold on to the tandem harness thread?" I find myself now believing he's an irresponsible kid in a highly responsible position. In PM's he's written that "no on on DZ.com is real." Jarrett, like many others here, I post under my real name so you'll always know who I am. Like most everyone else here, I'd speak to you in person exactly as I'm speaking to you here.
And like most every person here, if you spoke to me the way you're posting, it wouldn't be a pleasant scene.

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Now why is it myself and I'm sure most everyone else here is NOT surprised you fail to even start to grasp the concept of the point I was trying to make. :D:S:D:D:D:D

They have a leagle term for it. Any of our resident Lawyers care to chim in here and explain it.

hint: setting or standing pres.......
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Although I had a tremendous respect for this young man, after several PM's and reading posts here and in the video forum (remember the "I hold on to the tandem harness thread?"



I agree with this, but I see the TM (whether his father or not) who encourages his behavior as the bigger problem. If the TM has thousands of jumps and multiple ratings and is teaching that flying directly under a tandem is acceptable to a newer jumper, he's just as much at fault.

Jarrett has to choose between listening to the TM that flies with him or listening to a bunch of people posting on the internet... how many times have we all said to listen to instructors that you fly with rather than people hundreds/thousands of miles away to various posters in other situations? Unfortunately in this case, the in-person instructor appears to be giving very poor advice (at least according to Jarrett since the TM isn't posting here as far as we know).

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

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For what it's worth, since we're not hearing from the "real" Jarrett, I'd like to read a response from the TM or the DZO that apparently encourages this.
I agree, they're responsible for him being permitted/encouraged to do this. However now that he knows it's not safe to fly beneath and does it anyway, it's now Jarrett's albatross.

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review of your video show a (minor) collision with the passenger at the 15 second mark. Was that intentional? If it wasn't, then you have something to think about.

Not bashing you. Just saying....


Rat for Life - Fly till I die
When them stupid ass bitches ask why

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OK so I'm also an old fart, so you probably won't hear this input, but I'm still here, livin large every day

most skydivers I've seen with this type of attitude either voluntarily quit jumping, were thrown off the DZ or died

so Jarrett - which will it be for you?

it is easier to learn from others experience than to learn from your own

be safe, but if not don't take anyone else with you
Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

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Has the TM been contacted by the manufacturer yet? Was it a Strong system? If so, legally Ted has covered his ass...

He could warn the TI and then if something ever happened....this thread will be a slam dunk. Or if nothing is done haul the rating away?
Seems like that could be done already.

Bill

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2 out of 3 dropzones I normally jump at accept what I do.



So then why don't you share with us all what three dropzones you jump at? I mean you have nothing to hide, right? I'm sure you wouldn't mind sharing with all of us the names of the dz's and the dzo's name.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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...if nothing is done haul the rating away? Seems like that could be done already.


Yeah, lets organise a lynch mob.
That 'll educate the kid... :$:SB|

(IMO we all lack in parental duties, from time to time. It comes with the teritory of being a parent. AND it is not as if this was the first footage of foolish behavior with ignorant passengers as innocent victims. But sometimes the "DZ.Com"munity sounds like they (the passengers) should consider themselves lucky just by having their harness adjusted and hooked up prior to exit, so as long as you don't loose them on opening, I think we all deserve some latitude... but hey, that's just me... YMMV...)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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So, what would you expend the tandem manufacturer to do, if they were told that a TM was engaging in actions that:

a) were specifically mentioned NOT to do in the tandem manual

b) KNOWN to increase the hazard to the tandem passenger

You think that Strong or UPT or Racer should just say "oh, that's ok... we didn't realize the skillllzzzzzz that guy has..."

Bullshit.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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Yeah, to be clear....the TI has some issues of whats safe for the pax and himself. If his judgement is off there...what other areas?

Thats all I'm suggesting. It would be interesting to hear him defend himself. Parenting comments should be somwhere in "Community" shouldn't it?[:/]

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It would be interesting to hear him defend himself



(I think you know this) You will never see a post from the dad or DZO defending the kids actions, because it can't be defended, period.

As the wise Mr. Keenan once said,

"These things have a way of working out." ;)
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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"These things have a way of working out."



Amen?
:)

Well. at least when you guys catch up with me doing stupid shit while tandeming, there probably will be video footage of it - if I screw up spectacularly...
I must say that I could really look forward to a nice feeding frenzy between lawyers and mediatypes were I not to miss the event, in all likelyhood...
As Michael Herr once put it: "The only body you really couldn't bear looking at you are not going to see..." - and a parent can always defend his kids actions.... :)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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Jarrett,
You talk about flying underneath fellow skydivers. And people here say that's different, because a Tandem Passenger doesn't know the risk and has no control.
Would you be willing to explain the risk to them in laymen's terms.
Give them a choice. Tell them I would like to shoot your video from underneath you. If my parachute were to open unexpectedly you will almost definately be injured or die. Parachutes do sometimes deploy prematurely. You will have no control of the situation. Or I can stay in front of you, so if this were to happen you will be out of harms way.
Perhaps you could include a special waiver.
I understand that in the event of a premature deployment(which does happen) I will probably be injured or killed, because I choose to have my video shot from underneath me, instead of infront of me where I would be safe in this event. Although it is not the best angle to shoot a tandem video, I would prefer this method, as I am feeling slightly suicidal today.
Why not give the passenger a choice?
"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

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OFF TOPIC (sorry):

Packing Jarrett,
It's great that you like to backfly, just please stop doing it DIRECTLY BENEATH the tandems. That airspace belongs to them.

-dp



I don't understand about this video, it seem regular to me. Back-flyin as videographer is great to capture memory. I notice most videographer do back-fly under the large group of RW.



Backflying beneath the center of a large RW group is *very* different than backflying directly beneath a tandem. If you have a premature opening beneath the center of an RW group, you're not as likely to hit anyone square on. Beneath a tandem, you're guaranteed to hit two people square on.



Oh now, I understand about it. :)
Flyin' Dawg or SkyDog


"To understand is to forgive, even oneself."

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I guess I'm kind of humbled...

You guys got the manufacture to call one of my DZO's.

I was told that it wasn't a good idea to do that so I'm going to stop doing that at the dz.

The manufacture was very polite with the DZO and laid out his views way better than you guys laid out yours.

My dad (instructor), DZO, still doesn't think that its really that much to worry about. The DZO just simply told me, "yeah to keep us from getting in trouble lets not do that." and just like I said before, once asked to stop I did so.
Na' Cho' Cheese

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I've deleted several posts in this thread.

The objective of this forum is to discuss and learn about issues in skydiving safety, and talk about how training can increase that safety. Early on in this thread there were some borderline attacks that I allowed because this _is_ a serious issue, and I can understand (as a former TM) that a lot of people feel very strongly about tandem safety. I would remind everyone, though, that while many skydivers will listen to advice, almost no one (including the people who post here) will take abuse as advice.

This thread has a good outcome; someone learned something about jumping with tandems, and tandems at one DZ have gotten a bit safer. That's much, much better than learning about tandem safety by reading an incident report. Now that that has been accomplished, I will not be letting the more abusive posts remain.

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The manufacture was very polite with the DZO and laid out his views way better than you guys laid out yours.



I am always eager to better my communication skills; may I inquire as to how he was able to better express his views?
-
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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i think it is interesting that most DZs wouldn't allow a 16 yr old to sign a waiver by themselves and do a tandem, because they are not mature/old enough to take the risk by themselves, but this one would put a 16 yr old in the air with the tandem.
He who hesitates shall inherit the earth.

Deadwood
Skydive New Mexico Motorcycle Club, Touring Division

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If the 16 year old has the experience and skill, what is the problem? His age in this case should have no bearing.

Many other "mature" skydivers with far less skill and judgement are allowed to fly with tandems far too often. By end of this season, I'll bet the quality of video will be top notch and performed in a very safe manner to boot.

Cheers.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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