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davepend

Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury)

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I think that you are upset that your friend has drawn so much flak. That's understandable. It is also understandable that you wish to defend him. But Jarred has done nothing but shoot himself in the foot with the attitude that he presents on this forum. Is it his "real" attitude? Who knows.



I am not his friend (other than I tend to like people in general), never chatted with him online or in person, don't pay much attention to his posts, etc...

Your DELIVERY of a VERY IMPORTANT MESSAGE is what I am not buying into...:S

Yes, I agree 100% that his actions are risking unknowing tandem customers. But, the message was lost in the delivery.

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Raise your hand, who here has jumped with Jarred. You are the ones who know him well enough to give him harsh criticism when you know he needs it.



Bullshit - if he's flying under or over the tandems we ALL need to be telling him that's dangerous and to knock it off.

Several people took a "hey, this is dangerous and here's why" approach to him - and all that they got back from him was excuses and attitude.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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The DZO is Not his dad. The TM in this video is. At one time his dad did own the DZ but that is ancient history.

I'm a bit ashamed of Jarret's attitude on this thread, he probably will live long enough to regret what he's said here though. (I really hope so)

And Jarret:
Attitude really is dangerous - it's attitude more than anything else that causes people to do the stupid shit that kills them.
illegible usually

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Does Jarrett understand that in addition to the safety issues and arrogance he displays, he is to some degree representing his DZ? I wouldn't jump there knowing that this kind of behavior is condoned. If I knew of anyone even considering a tandem in that neck of the woods, I'd be damn sure that they didn't go to his DZ given his attitude as well as the fact that the TM appears to be allowing it to continue.

There are only a couple of people I can think of that I do not feel safe on a plane with. And all of them share the traits of arrogance and not listening to those with more experience.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

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I've finaly gotten to post again after being banned for some reason

I'm only arrogant on here. If we happen to meet at a dropzone you will find me extremely laid back, perhaps even a little shy.

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If I knew of anyone even considering a tandem in that neck of the woods, I'd be damn sure that they didn't go to his DZ



Do you even know where I jump?

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the TM appears to be allowing it to continue.


The tandem master is my father. He's pretty experienced. If I was doing something unsafe, he'd sure tell me. I even asked him,"dad, when I shoot tandem videos, do you think that what I do is dangerous." He told me,"no...no man... shit no... I'd tell you if what you were doing was dangerous." And my dad is safety concious. Former dropzone owner. Multi rated instructor. Thousands and thousands of jumps. Many years in the sport. Jumps all over the country.

I'll agree with you that the posts above were a little out of line. But your guy's post are out of line too.

Its not like I'm not listening to you guys. But you guys are like sheep. One person says something and everyone agrees with that one person, even if they don't know what they're agreeing too.

2 out of 3 dropzones I normally jump at accept what I do. 1 dropzone doesn't recommend it. I have not met (in person) a single tandem instructor who has refused to let me do that (backfly). If/ When I happen to meet one who doesn't want me to do that.... I won't do it.
Na' Cho' Cheese

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Its not like I'm not listening to you guys. But you guys are like sheep. One person says something and everyone agrees with that one person, even if they don't know what they're agreeing too.

2 out of 3 dropzones I normally jump at accept what I do. 1 dropzone doesn't recommend it. I have not met (in person) a single tandem instructor who has refused to let me do that (backfly). If/ When I happen to meet one who doesn't want me to do that.... I won't do it.



After calling people sheep, you then state that your own opinion is correct because the people you fly with (and dropzones you go to) say it's ok.

Do you see the irony there?

Rather than say "so-and-so says it's ok" (which is a bit sheepish), try using logic to explain why it's ok. Or, use logic to reply to the hypothetical question (which SO many have raised in this thread): what if you or the tandem has a premature deployment?
www.WingsuitPhotos.com

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Jarrett -

I'm not seeing much gripe about you backflying the tandem... what we're talking about is being under (or over) the tandem.

THAT is where the danger lies - not in what body position you're in while you're filming.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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what if you or the tandem has a premature deployment?



When flying over (why would you do that?)
If video flyer has a premature= nothing
If tandem has premature= video flyer will go through the canopy

When flying under
If video flyer has premature= tandem will go through the video flyer's canopy
If tandem has premature= tandem could possibly bounce off video flyer- depending on how close vidiot is and how much of a trap door effect there is-*-rig dependant

I usually don't fly over a tandem unless I'm doing like a tandem scenery shot. But I still don't go over the rig.

When I fly under a tandem I must make sure my gear is in tip top shape to eliminate the possibility of a premature deployment.
Na' Cho' Cheese

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When I fly under a tandem I must make sure my gear is in tip top shape to eliminate the possibility of a premature deployment.



Preventing premature openings will never be 100% under your control even with the best gear and maintenance. Not going under the tandem is something that you can 100% control.

Plus, I've got to agree with the other guys that it didn't add anything to the video, so what's the point? I'm sure that fat chick would've preferred her face rather than her belly filling the screen for most of her video:P
Do you want to have an ideagasm?

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>When flying over (why would you do that?)
>If video flyer has a premature= nothing
>If tandem has premature= video flyer will go through the canopy

Right, provided you stay away from the drouge.

>When flying under
>If video flyer has premature= tandem will go through the video flyer's canopy
>If tandem has premature= tandem could possibly bounce off video flyer-
>depending on how close vidiot is and how much of a trap door effect there is-*-rig dependant

I would also add that the passenger's feet are vulnerable at this point; there's often quite a swing effect as the canopy begins to inflate.

>When I fly under a tandem I must make sure my gear is in tip top shape
>to eliminate the possibility of a premature deployment.

Most skydivers consider their gear to be in tip top shape - yet prematures still happen to such gear and people get killed. Generally skydivers can accept this risk, but tandem passengers can't. They just don't understand the various risks enough to make informed decisions.

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2) Jarred has posted a video that has some issues - and you all lost your lunch right away telling him not only about a safety issue - but suddenly that all his video work is crap. Adding salt to a wound, insult to injury, etc... You expect someone to respect you when you don't focus your constructive criticism to one "blow to their ego" at a time, starting with ones that are safety related???



No, we didn't "all" lose our lunch or jump on him. Some of us tried to speak to Jarrett in a civil tone.
Upshot of it is, who you are on the internet is likely who we should be afraid of.
Our character is usually defined by who we are when no one is looking at us.

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OFF TOPIC (sorry):

Packing Jarrett,
It's great that you like to backfly, just please stop doing it DIRECTLY BENEATH the tandems. That airspace belongs to them.

-dp



I don't understand about this video, it seem regular to me. Back-flyin as videographer is great to capture memory. I notice most videographer do back-fly under the large group of RW.
Flyin' Dawg or SkyDog


"To understand is to forgive, even oneself."

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OFF TOPIC (sorry):

Packing Jarrett,
It's great that you like to backfly, just please stop doing it DIRECTLY BENEATH the tandems. That airspace belongs to them.

-dp



I don't understand about this video, it seem regular to me. Back-flyin as videographer is great to capture memory. I notice most videographer do back-fly under the large group of RW.



Backflying beneath the center of a large RW group is *very* different than backflying directly beneath a tandem. If you have a premature opening beneath the center of an RW group, you're not as likely to hit anyone square on. Beneath a tandem, you're guaranteed to hit two people square on.

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> The way I look at it is that if you backfly under an RW group and have a
>premature you might take out more than just 2 people.

Yes. And everyone in that group has accepted that possibility. The tandem passenger has not.

It's like a demo. If you crash and take out someone on your crew - bad news, but they are there to protect the crowd. If you crash and kill a spectator - that's unforgivable.

(Note that people who do go low more than once on RW records are generally removed from the skydive for safety reasons.)

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The way I look at it is that if you backfly under an RW group and have a premature you might take out more than just 2 people.

After reviewing the 400 way record video. If the guy had a premature he might have taken out 5 or 10 people.



Possibly - but I'd be willing to bet that everyone on that 400 way understood the possible risks - that tandem pax doesn't.

Dude - from everything thing I've heard, you're a damned good skydiver, and you're got a right to be proud of what you've accomplished.

BUT - you've also taken on a job that puts you in contact with the DZ customer. Your responsibility in that job is to two-fold - 1. Give the customer a quality product for them to remember their skydive, and 2. Do so as safely as possible.

Getting underneath the tandem is failing #2 - regardless of how you try to justify it.

You want to be taken seriously - part of that is being responsible for your actions, and owning up to it when you make a mistake. There's nothing wrong with saying "Yeah, looking back on it, maybe I shouldn't have done that - lesson learned."
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

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The way I look at it is that if you backfly under an RW group and have a premature you might take out more than just 2 people.

After reviewing the 400 way record video. If the guy had a premature he might have taken out 5 or 10 people.



So that makes it OK?:S
RW groups know what it means to have the vidiot below them on his back. They're able to at least recognize what's up, even if they can't get completely clear. If the vidiot is too close, then they're in his burble anyway. Additionally, they're all very experienced skydivers. A tandem student not only doesn't know what's going on, but has zero ability to respond to it. Neither does a TM/TI.

Bottom line is, no matter how hard you try to argue or justify, there is no justification for flying directly beneath a tandem. There is not any possible means you can guarantee that on each and every skydive, you are 100% certain that you will not experience a premie, and no way you can guarantee with 100% certainty that you're in control. Not at 500 jumps, not at 5000 jumps, and not at 50,000 jumps.
IMO, a tandem skydive should be fairly boring for the vidiot. The student doesn't know the difference between you backflying beneath them and sit-flying/tweenie in front of them. Skydiving is entirely about mitigated risks. Increasing the risk to yourself is no big deal, but increasing the risk to an unsuspecting tandem student...it's called "gross negligence." It's wrong, we all know it's wrong, and knowing it's wrong and doing it anyway vs not knowing it's wrong and doing it, is where you cross the line between negligence and gross negligence. I wouldn't be surprised if whomever makes the rig your dad is flying would jerk his rating if they read this thread.

At the end of the day, what you're doing makes all camera flyers look bad, particularly if you harm some one else.
It's *not* all about you. If you truly love this sport for the sport, and not for your ego, act responsibly.

I wish you luck; with your cavalier attitude, I suspect you need as much of it as you can get. Hope to see you here in a few years, and I'll bet you look back and read this with the thought of "What an idiot I was." Forums like this tend to be the new chronicles of our lives....Whether this is the "real" Jarrett or not.

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Forums like this tend to be the new chronicles of our lives



As well as the first place people looking for infomation would turn to in order the back up their point or claims, say like a lawyers office seeking infomation on the "industry standards" and now we have it from at least one major company as to their views of what the standards are in their view and I'm sure RWS will say the same www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2818662#2818662

Anyone who condones or dose this from now on in the good ol US of A better be ready to defend their actions in a court of law if you live thru the impact, just ask Jason Yasuda the camera man who hit Sean Crossman and now is being sued for 2 million by the estate and children. Lucky for him he only took the TM and not the student too or he might be getting sued for 4 million. If you think the dz waver will save you from to cost to defend civil suits, you had better think again.

So Jarrett are you willing to risk your dads house, car, and everything else he has worked for as long as you have been alive? And to you Mr. DZO who would let him keep doing so, are you also willing to risk the cost to defend this minors actions you were paying him to do, in a court of law ???

Not trying to pick on ya Jarrett dude, but trying to get you to look at this from another point of view you may not have thought of yet, the leagle ramifacitions for all the players involved, the lawyers love to sue everyone (right Mr. RW) and your under age, guess who they will seek money the from.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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So Jarrett are you willing to risk your dads house, car, and everything else he has worked for as long as you have been alive? And to you Mr. DZO who would let him keep doing so, are you also willing to risk the cost to defend this minors actions you were paying him to do, in a court of law ???



Well if you happen to know where my dropzone is (I think its been posted on here) then maybe.

The DZO has seen the videos. If he didn't like what he saw he would put a stop to it. No where does the law say that you can't backfly with tandems. I have no idea if this will even hold up in court.

My dad, is well my dad. He accepts risks when he accepted being my father.

I think your getting way to ahead of yourself.
Na' Cho' Cheese

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I have not met (in person) a single tandem instructor who has refused to let me do that (backfly).



The backflying isn't the issue here. I would let you jump with me and film tandem in any attitude you are comfortable with.
However, there are two virtual cones around me and my passenger, directly above and directly below us.
From what I see in your video you regularly trespass into one of these cones, the one below the tandempair.

You shouldn't.

When you backfly under a RW group, not only do they understand and accept the risks, but NO ONE IS TRAILING A DROGUE.

Just take a look at it like this (since you have done enough video jumps to be allowed to do it with tandems, I gather that you have made a few with unexperienced flyers also...)

Would you fly video with a complete beginner if you were unable to take "evasive action" should you see that beginner approaching way too rapid?

Would you be able to take "evasive action" as easily as you can do now, if you had a passenger strapped to your chest and a drogue trailing behind you?

O and by the way - your dad is biased. :)

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

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Forgive the long post, but I've been lurking here for a while, and it's finally time to chip in. I obviously don't have as much firsthand experience as the other posters with thousands more jumps...but at this point, it boils down to logic - something I know a lot about.

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So Jarrett are you willing to risk your dads house, car, and everything else he has worked for as long as you have been alive? And to you Mr. DZO who would let him keep doing so, are you also willing to risk the cost to defend this minors actions you were paying him to do, in a court of law ???



Well if you happen to know where my dropzone is (I think its been posted on here) then maybe.




Hey, Jarrett - I don't think he's threatening to sue you, but rather pointing out that liability affects us all. I can guarantee you that, were you to accidentally take out a tandem passenger with a premature deployment while backflying (God help us that you won't), it wouldn't matter if we knew where you jump, because their family would definitely know where your DZ is. Their family would easily find out that your name is Jarrett (it would be all over the police report, anyway). And that family's lawyer would undoubtedly look for skydiving information on the internet, where they would undoubtedly stumble upon a thread on a well-known skydiving BBS where the vast majority of experienced jumpers were telling you that backflying under a tandem was unsafe.

If your actions were to lead to an innocent person's death after you had been warned about them - and especially if you had appeared to brush off the concerns in the discussion - it would undoubtedly be admissable in court. Because it shows that you knew the risks, and you scoffed at them.

And that would be a gold mine for that particular lawyer.

I think what most people on this thread are trying to say is this - your dad might not be 'in the right' on this one. What you're doing has the potential to be very dangerous. And there's no way you can eliminate that danger. Even by checking your gear. Rule #2: sh*t happens. I won't go into all the possibilities of how you could wind up having a premature deployment, even on a brand new rig, straight from the factory...because you probably know more ways than I can think of. You've got a lot more time in the air than I have.


One thing that hasn't been said: Let's flip it around and do a cost/benefit analysis: what do you gain by backflying under a tandem?

Not much, IMHO. Not to downplay your video, but I didn't think the backflying underneath added much - in fact, I thought it took away from the video. I agree with the above poster who points out that most tandem videos should be pretty boring for the vidiot. Why? Because they're not paying to see you fly all over the place and do kickass freefly moves and fancy camerawork. They're paying to see themselves, taking their first leap into an amazing sport. (It would be like hiring a videographer for a wedding who ran around getting shots of hot girls (occasionally catching the bride and groom), then edited it to a gnarly soundtrack of Nine Inch Nails and the Cure. Was it a good video? Well, it was well-edited and shot. But that's not the same as "good," in this case.)

So what do you gain? Not much.

OTOH, what does backflying under a tandem cost you? Nothing...unless something goes wrong. And if it goes wrong, here's the kicker: it's gonna go wrong BIG. To the tune of millions of dollars, bankruptcy, the probable loss of everything your family has worked for for a long time, possible jail time for manslaughter.

Why? All because you took an unnecessary risk, after having been warned about it. And what did you gain from it? See above - not much.

Nevermind all the other stuff - just think for a second about how it would feel knowing that your actions had led to the death of an innocent person. Say, somebody's wife? Somebody's mother? Somebody's daughter?

And then add the stigma that you were warned about it previously, but laughed off the warnings and did it anyway? Wouldn't that be the worst situation in which to hear the words, "I told you so"?


I'm not saying that any of that will happen. But it could. And the only way to ensure that it doesn't is to not backfly under tandems.




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The DZO has seen the videos. If he didn't like what he saw he would put a stop to it. No where does the law say that you can't backfly with tandems. I have no idea if this will even hold up in court.



The law doesn't say that you can't backfly under tandems. But it could one day say that, if you were to kill someone by doing it. We're a self-regulating sport right now...but if we start ignoring the responsibilities that go along with that (and if our negligence leads to innocent death), we stand to lose our freedoms pretty quick.

The law also says very specific things about liability and negligence.

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My dad, is well my dad. He accepts risks when he accepted being my father.



Yes, but how about the tandem pax? They accepted the risk of the skydive - did they accept the extra risk that you added by doing something that lots of experienced jumpers warned against?

Rule #1 - Kill yourself, but don't kill the innocents.

---------

Anyway, man, I'm darn impressed by your jump numbers. Taking on a sport like this at your age, you're bound to have to work a little harder to gain acceptance, and to get as far as you have.

But that doesn't mean you shouldn't occasionally bite your tongue, and quit working so hard to show your knowledge and skill. Especially when so many people's thinking is diametrically-opposed to yours.

I think you should really open your mind and consider what these people are saying. Consider the alternatives, weigh your choices and the possible consequences...or maybe ask a tandem passenger to weigh the choices next time. Explain the risks, and how small you think they are, and why it will be better for them if you backfly under them. Somehow I think you'll have a hard time justifying that one.

Good luck,
KC
Signatures are the new black.

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No where does the law say that you can't backfly with tandems. I have no idea if this will even hold up in court.



That might be true, but Strong's Tandem Director told you:
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Whether filming tandems while on one's back, belly, or any axis/orientation, it is imperative that the videographer never drift directly under or directly above the tandem pair on exit, in freefall, or during deployment, whether by accident or on purpose.



And it says in the UPT Sigma manual:
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1) No one should ever pass directly over or under the Tandem pair in freefall or droguefall. On exit, the Tandem Instructor needs room to deploy the drogue, and at any time after that, the drogue could suddenly become a deploying main canopy.



So you've been warned by the 2 biggest manufacturers of tandem equipment (I don't remember from the video what you're DZ uses).

Law or not, you now know better.

Dave

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When flying over (why would you do that?)
If video flyer has a premature= nothing
If tandem has premature= video flyer will go through the canopy

When flying under
If video flyer has premature= tandem will go through the video flyer's canopy
If tandem has premature= tandem could possibly bounce off video flyer- depending on how close vidiot is and how much of a trap door effect there is-*-rig dependant

I usually don't fly over a tandem unless I'm doing like a tandem scenery shot. But I still don't go over the rig.

When I fly under a tandem I must make sure my gear is in tip top shape to eliminate the possibility of a premature deployment.

The way I look at it is that if you backfly under an RW group and have a premature you might take out more than just 2 people.

After reviewing the 400 way record video. If the guy had a premature he might have taken out 5 or 10 people.


Wow, it is amazing to see attitude like this when talking about peoples lives. You do realize that all of the above scenarios end with someone if not muliple people dieing or atleast being severely hurt.
I believe it was two years ago that a tandem instructor and video guy died do to the video guy being slightly above them and on deployment the instructor hugged the student (putting video guy farther above them) and on deployment they surged forward putting the video guy directly above the tandem pair. The video guy and instructor collided, luckly the student lived. In skydiving there are some mistakes that can not be undone and (sorry will not fix)
I had rethought my feelings on underage skydiving a while back and thought it may not be a bad thing. However, after reading your posts and your total lack of respect for human life makes me want to change my opinion, it is obvious that it is atleast in part if not all a pure lack of maturity leading this (and that is truly sad).
Kirk

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