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davepend

Backflying with tandems (Was Rocky Point injury)

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In light of his comment:
"Old man, you can delay yourself from getting arthritus from replying to this thread. I'm not going change just because some cyber (PA removed) flaming me up about the way I do things."

Maybe a remark or two about the quality of his video would get him to re-think since the remarks about the safety of his jump is not getting through.

Like Stratostar and Mike, I believe you at least gotta try.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Like Stratostar and Mike, I believe you at least gotta try.



To a point. I have been copied on two PM's that were sent by two people I have a lot of respect for, becuase of their knowledge and wisdom in not only jumping but video as well. Both were told to fuck off and he could out fly them anyday, so to speak. (LOL, yea right)

It's been thrown out there by many on here who have way more EXP then Jr. yet it falls on deaf ears, so be it. Only those who jump with him can stop it.

Maybe one day when he is older and wiser may he think back and realize what an asshat he is being, we all were young and thought we knew it all too, once, those of us who have survived it now know we didn't know shit, we just thought we did.

Thanks to all the older jumpers who didn't hold back on chewing my ass when I was a total fuck up and told me how it was, I owe you all alot for my well being. Thank you.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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I thought maybe if he observed adults discussing youth and how we learned through time we didn't know it all, he might realize no matter how many skydives he has, shooting video belongs in the hands of mature responsible people. That's why I replied to you instead. Just trying a different angle. I understand your frustration. It's hard teaching a child who knows so much more than you. I don't know if he is old enough to understand, that in the years you've been jumping, plus the years you've been alive, might equate some degree of cumulative knowledge.
"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

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Maybe one day when he is older and wiser may he think back and realize what an asshat he is being, we all were young and thought we knew it all too, once, those of us who have survived it now know we didn't know shit, we just thought we did.



I doubt it. He probably won't make it that long. Everyone got into it with him in the video forum awhile ago. If I ever have the pleasure of meeting him, I will promptly not let him on my skydive. The number of people I am unwilling to jump with is miniscule, but this punk kid is one of them.

This wouldn't fly where I shoot video. None of the TMs would tolerate it. I suspect the ones he jumps with are unwilling to do anything about it because his dad is the DZO.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

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Oh what could you possibly know? You've only been jumping more than twice the years he's been alive. ;)
I don't think we should be upset with a child for behaving like a child. The adults he jumps with should realize, no matter how many jumps he has, he still has the decision making skills of a child. Who is really at fault here?
"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

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I don't think we should be upset with a child for behaving like a child



Upset, who upset? I'm not. When I started @16 the adults expected me to act like an young adult man and when I got out of line they put me in my place till I could show I learned the diff between right and wrong or I didn't get to play in the adult rain deer games @ the dz, Period. Act like a kid be treated as one, act like an young adult man get treated like one. Part of being an adult is being able to admit when your in the wrong.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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*** Act like a kid be treated as one, act like an young adult man get treated like one. Part of being an adult is being able to admit when your in the wrong.***

Agreed
"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

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When I was 16, oh goodness, I don’t even want to admit how much I had yet to learn, how much growing up I had to do.

Belittling this young man, calling him a child and whatnot is probably not the way to bring him along. The truth of the matter is he is blessed, and cursed with youth and we could all take into consideration what it was like, with the hormones popping out of control and the cool factor a must. Imagine, being 16 and having 500 jumps, that must be the ultra immense side of coolness! Even cooler than being able to play Eruption or having a high performance bike or both – 500 jumps at 16 is the epitome of coolness. I can’t imagine what having 500 jumps at 16 would have done to my ego.

500 jumps is also considered a danger point for most male skydivers who still have a repository of testosterone and I suspect he has plenty of that in abundance. How a young man in that position must be at some level, feeling 10 feet tall and bullet proof.
Lets prove how “adult” we are and approach this situation with empathy and heartfelt understanding, to make our attempts of encouragement with kindness and respect while keeping in mind that he is young, is in he 500 jump range (we have all been there) and may not take all of our well intentioned advice because he is where he is at this point in life.

My sense of seeintothefutureism tell me one day he will be a well respected skydiver and instructor, maybe even world class and hopefully there will be no injuries or deaths as part of his learning experience.

And to Jarrett, I would request that you take into consideration the advice these well intentioned over 30 skydivers are trying to give you. It may not seem like it, but they really are taking the time out of there lives writing words of encouragement (although not well communicated all the time) to you because they care – the care about the integrity of the sport, they care about the safety of the student passengers and that these clients get a good quality video they are paying hard earned money to have you document so they can show their grandkids one day and they care indirectly about you.
Your safety, and I believe that not only your well being is the driving force that is motivating, but the plain and simple fact that you are the future of this sport. You will be making a life out of skydiving, with a lengthy past of being around it, and now a long future to look forward to, and that is what we really care about.
One day, you will be the one looking out for the next generation - looking out for the up and coming skydivers that will be the future of the sport a generation after you.

It is difficult for you because not only do you have to prove yourself more so because you were raised around the sport, you are young and already have more jumps than most people that get started in this sport will ever acquire, and you have to prove to yourself that your are a skydiver with a respectable background and level of experience. The quickest way down that road is with understanding, humility and patience – not the usual attributes of a 16 year old but I am challenging you to rise above an beyond.
I believe you have it in you…

Stay safe,
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

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i saw a vid where the tm had taped the student to let them know it was time to bring their arms out few seconds after they left the plane instead the student reached back really quickly and pulled. you cant control everything thats why thier are accidents. but blatantly disregarding safety procedures is just going to make shit worse. i hope this is not your real attitude about safety if so please let me know so we dont end up crossing paths.
light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

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Tell me how this is dangerous



I used to to the same thing you were doing in your vid. The TM's didn't seem to care.

I went to work at another DZ, and one of the TMs ripped me a new one after I flew under him. He turned out to be highly respected I/E who spends all his time these days running AFF / Tandem courses.

He's had premature reserve deployments, and seen a camera man get killed after a tandem rig had a premie when he was under them.

Additonally, I've seem video of a new-ish drouge bridle snapping mid skydive. That video flyer was on his belly in front of the tandem.

Beyond that, I've seen at least 20 students reach down and pull the handle well before pull time. If they have a handle, and are taught how to use, they can and will dump without notice.

On top of it all, why would you want to put your own father at additional risk?

Do you have a mother? How would she feel if her son and husband were killed on the same skydive? Grow up, and have a thought about someone besides yourself.


This is all aside from the additional risk to the tandem passenger, who is jumping under the impression that the 'professionals' at the DZ will be taking every reasonable precaution in assuring their safety.

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Hi Jarrett
You know, I think you are one incredible kid with a huge potential for becoming one outstanding skydiver. Your dad, is also a very great person and skydiver. I understand how easy it would be at your age to think you have it all figured out( Hell, I know I would if I were you). I even have begun to work with my son (inspired by you) to become a skydiver earlier (below is just a selfess promotion of my son). But you really should listen to what these people are really trying to say (beyond the jabs at you). Always respect the opinion of those that have more experience than you and never disregard it. You see the longer your are in this sport the greater chance you have of seeing or at least knowing some that have went in or have been hurt pretty bad (if not it being yourself), it is only after this you can truely understand the real gravity of mistakes(ones that can not be taken back).
I wish you well on your journey and please listen with open mind and ears.
Kirk

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This thread is SHIT.
Jarrett, you are just wrong on this one. Flying under or over the tandem is a move that does nothing for the guy paying the freight and increases his risk.
Almost everyone else (and stratostar especially) your obsession with Jarrett's age is bullshit. We all know there are older TMs and vidiots out there who do the same thing. J has 500 jumps. He is not a student or a novice; he is an experienced jumper with a reasonably large ego. WOW that is so unusual in our sport. Using his age like a stick to beat him with is just dumb. How many references are there in this thread to him being a child. What a pile of shit. We let seventeen year olds go to war as men. it is only when they die that we call them boys.

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I doubt it. He probably won't make it that long.



I'll take that bet. I'd jump with him anyday of the week. My original post didn't go through but looks like my opinion was stated another way by the post above this one.

Jarrett, I've been in some very hairy situations and survived by luck and reflexes... mostly luck. I see the points of these people even though I completely
disagree with their toddler attitudes.

Your points are understandable as well. Just be safe. You'll have enough to deal with even if you're trying to do everything right. Hope to see you in the air someday.

Cheers.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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He is not a student or a novice; he is an experienced jumper with a reasonably large ego. WOW that is so unusual in our sport. Using his age like a stick to beat him with is just dumb.


His age can be a factor why he is not listening.

Some kind of injury can be a cure for his ego. It can help him to walk again on the ground and not floating over it.

I'm happy that teenies here don't have funds to make e.g. more than 50-100 jumps a year. They might have some chance to grow up and get experienced in the same time.

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Almost everyone else (and stratostar especially) your obsession with Jarrett's age is bullshit.



Gee Andrew,
Maybe your confused by seeing me post about starting to jump @ age 16 myself or maybe you just can't fucking read.
I guess you missed where I defend the right of those under the age of 18 to take part in the sport, you don't know me and don't know shit about me, but as early as 8yrs I was packing t-10's for students, when I grew in this sport most things came with a lot of responsibility and if I showed I couldn't handle that or do as expected of me by the grown ups running the show I didn't get to do the jobs I enjoyed doing, because someone else was ALWAYS at risk from my actions!

I have no "obsession" with his age, other then clearly seeing statements made by him that stink to high heaven of that of a immature kid, if he was 21 and acting this way I would still call him on it.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Stratostar,

I am not impressed with your and some of the other people's attitude on this thread.

I see your posts lacking constructive criticism in way that helps a fellow skydiver.

Instead of offering positive ways to improve - this thread bashes Jarred on his age, on his camera work, etc. It starts off with one of the first posts that immediately makes strong accusations about safety instead of saying something like:

"Hey Jarred, read this thread about a fellow skydiver who caused an accident. I am worried about your back flying under the tandem pair. Consider the risks of premature deployment or sudden change in fall rate when you are in that position. I think backflying is cool, but if you back up just a hair and change your angle so you are in front of the pair instead of under the pair, you can solve this problem. Try flying that position this weekend and post a video, we would all like to see it."

Treating someone like an adult probably will yield adult like responses.

Comments that have been made do not teach, because they are just poking fun of and insulting instead of providing positive solutions , "He won't make it", "This video is shit", "this video would not be allowed at our DZ, I would want my money back", "his dad is the DZO so probably every other TM at the DZ can't say anything about his safety..."

Honestly - safety issues aside, I much rather jump with a young and positive and energetic kid than an old fart who brags about being in this sport for twice the age of this skydiver. There is nothing inspiring to me in the "I have years of experience, do what I say" attitude. Not to say I don't want to learn... But there are so many people who have so much experience, but never brag about it and share their knowledge in a way that is fun to be on the receiving end of the conversation.

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am not impressed with your and some of the other people's attitude on this thread



Well that's good, I'm not trying to impress you.

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Instead of offering positive ways to improve



Those were expressed by myself and many others in the fourms and PMs and the reply was fuck off. This is the second pissing contest with this young man about those videos from what I understand. If he is going throw shit at people, then shit will be thrown back!

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old fart who brags about being in this sport for twice the age of this skydiver.



You call it bragging, I call it pointing out the fact I too was a 16 year old skydiver at one time myself and have a tad bit of insight as to what it is like to be a 16 year old jumper in an adult world, my guess is you can't say the same and there for stoop to saying I'm bragging about it.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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I see your posts lacking constructive criticism in way that helps a fellow skydiver.

Instead of offering positive ways to improve - this thread bashes Jarred ...



Usually, pointing out to someone that their actions could kill people is more than enough to make a rational person examine those actions. You, however, are concerned that this matter is not being addressed in the kind, loving, supportive way that Young Jarred can absorb in his nurturing, womb-like world.

Well, Fuck that. Anyone who responds the way Jerrod has to safety comments (no matter how unkindly they are presented) does not have the maturity to be trusted in a Tandem environment. As has been pointed out here, Tandem Passengers are not there for vidiots and TMs to showcase their newest tricks. They deserve the highest level of professionalism and safety, and if that's not "fun enough" for the jumpers involved, then they need to get out of the Tandem business.

It hasn't been too long ago that a young swooper, when given advice about unsafe practices told us all how he was God's gift to skydiving and we were all just jealous of his phenomenal skill. That "expert's" ashes have since blown away in the winds of freefall and will eventually be followed by those of more "experts", who hate the fact that a bunch of "Old Farts" want to restrict their obviously supernatural ability.

These things have a way of working out. Being in the sport for some time allows one the length of vision to see the trends and patterns that cannot be seen from a short view. Nothing is certain. Maybe someday Jarred will be a wise, old jumper thinking of the obstacles he overcame on his way to greatness. Or maybe he'll be a picture on a DZ wall, that people will feel sad every time they pass, thinking, "If only I could have said something more, maybe..."


Kevin Keenan
_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

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My intention here is not to reply to any one person specifically on this thread, but simply to offer a manufacturer perspective on the issue of backflying video under tandems.

Whether filming tandems while on one's back, belly, or any axis/orientation, it is imperative that the videographer never drift directly under or directly above the tandem pair on exit, in freefall, or during deployment, whether by accident or on purpose.

If it occurs by accident, then the videographer must recognize that they are not ready to film tandems from that axis, and must take the personal responsibility to go off and practice on non tandem skydives until they are able to remain out of the danger zones above and below the tandem pair during the entire tandem jump. Tandem jumps are not the place to practice such flying.

If a videographer is drifting under or above a tandem pair on purpose, then I would recommend that videographer review the history of incident reports relating to tandem video. Whether they think it's no big deal flying under tandems, or worse, they are able to comprehend it's risks and do it anyways, they are needlessly placing their tandem pair in potentially catastrophic danger by choosing to fly that way. No one can outfly Mr. Murphy (Murphy's Law).

Why not fly directly above the tandem?
Premature tandem deployments (by accident or on purpose) can and do happen periodicaly. We can never know exactly when. We must assume it will occur on every tandem skydive.

Why not fly directly below the tandem?
Again, premature deployments of the videographer's gear can and do happen periodically. Videographer's containers can go through 10-20 loads a day, often packed quickly to make turn around loads. All it takes is a "I can get through the day with this worn closing loop and change it when were done" mentality, and the chances of a premature container opening increases ten fold.

Aside from premature openings of either the tandem container or the videographer container, another critical control measure is fall rate. A videographer directly under a tandem can easily cork up in the tandem with catastrophic results. And a tandem pair can also accelerate during a normal deployment as they fall away from the drogue they are releasing from. Both scenarios increase the likelyhood of a mid-air collision.

As an industry, I believe that we must collectively recognize that every tandem jump that we make, as either instructor or videographer, carries with it an awesome responsibility. We are %100 responsible for the safety of our passengers and must do everything within our power to ensure that every tandem skydive is conducted in the safest manner possible for the student.

I'd be happy to discuss any of this offline if anyone has any questions or comments, feel free to call me at the factory (407) 859-9317 or email me at tomnoonan@strongparachutes.com.

Best Regards,

Tom Noonan
Tandem Director
Strong Enterprises

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I gotta disagree with ya on this one.

The kid has shown himself to be arrogent and invincible. He needs a good kick in the ass, or something he wants to be taken from him (e.g. his video privileges)

Its no different than our very own Dustin, who has been talked to and nurtured ad nauseum, to no effect. Unfortunetely every time I or someone else goes to give him a harsher correction, even if in the form of some raised-voice counselling, someone jumps in to protect his feelings and tells him it's ok, he's learning, right? Ya, then on the next load hes planning a 3way crew jump with all sub-40 jump friends, or cutting off tandems in the pattern doing S turns because he doesnt want to land in the shrubs.

This jarred kid is no different.

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You, however, are concerned that this matter is not being addressed in the kind, loving, supportive way that Young Jarred can absorb in his nurturing, womb-like world...

Well, Fuck that. Anyone who responds the way Jerrod has to safety comments (no matter how unkindly they are presented) does not have the maturity to be trusted in a Tandem environment...




A few comments:

1) The internet alter-ego of us all is often completely different that the real life person. We say things that are often for the sake of argument and defensive, etc.... Raise your hand, who here has jumped with Jarred. You are the ones who know him well enough to give him harsh criticism when you know he needs it.

2) Jarred has posted a video that has some issues - and you all lost your lunch right away telling him not only about a safety issue - but suddenly that all his video work is crap. Adding salt to a wound, insult to injury, etc... You expect someone to respect you when you don't focus your constructive criticism to one "blow to their ego" at a time, starting with ones that are safety related???

3) How many of you would tell a 10 jump wonder asking about updating a canopy: "The internet is not the place to learn this - talk to your instructor. Only they know how you land."

But suddenly - you all (and I guess myself) have the responsibility to argue strongly with this kid, in the virtual world, in the name of safety WHEN MOST OF US HAVE NOT JUMPED WITH HIM? You assume his attitude on this website and on the internet is his true attitude???

If you are concerned so deeply, there are a few respected ways to solve this problem... Contact the S&TA of his DZ, contact a mentor he respects, etc.

I have received a few PMs for my post... They often have the theme of "adults are treated like adults, children are treated like children. He has to make the first move, and until then I will treat him like a child."

My response - I don't know a single child who ever grows up and acts like an adult, until they have roll models to learn from and emulate. You adults all started talking about him as if he was not in the room making strong insults about everything you could find wrong in the video. Would you have done that in the real world? Would you treat a wayward kid with good intentions at the DZ the same way? Did you establish an environment where a constructive criticism could be discussed?

This is not about a "nurturing womb". This is about treating others in the way in which you would like to be treated.

I actually respect a lot how the thread started.

Davepend said:
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Packing Jarrett,
It's great that you like to backfly, just please stop doing it DIRECTLY BENEATH the tandems. That airspace belongs to them.



Within TWO POSTS, before any replies - people are posting about "ripping him a new asshole" and using words like "no goddamn excuse"

But Jared keeps his cool and says:

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all right I'll bite. Tell me how this is dangerous.

I'll agree this is not a perfect video but many respected video flyers will fly very similar to the way I shoot tandems.



HE ASKED FOR KNOWLEDGE. Someone gave him the link and he read it.

Suddenly people are going off on 7 point lists about the sun, his feet being in frame, etc...

I just never have seen anyone - 16 years old, or 99 years old, ever respond positively to a wide bash of insults including "you are a safety risk to all." Not all - but most - will respond well, or at least hear what you are saying, if you say "I am worried about something... This is why."

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You assume his attitude on this website and on the internet is his true attitude???



All any of us have to go on is what people present here. If Jarred tells someone to "Fuck off", when given some safety advice, we must assume that he means "Fuck off". All of us cannot go and jump with him, become his friends, and understand his inner motivations. All we can go by is what he presents here. If there is a difference between the "Real Jarred" and the "Internet Jarred", how are we supposed to know that ?

I think that you are upset that your friend has drawn so much flak. That's understandable. It is also understandable that you wish to defend him. But Jarred has done nothing but shoot himself in the foot with the attitude that he presents on this forum. Is it his "real" attitude? Who knows.

The attitude that Jarred presents here is one of a bratty know-it-all, who wants to flout the rules. Here's Jarred's profile:
-------------
Interests:
Turning low and stabbing out of it. Turning too high and then turning low to stab out of it. Rapid downsizing. Not listening to anyone. Pulling low. Hooking my RSL to the middle ring on my 3 ring. Freeflying in an old SST racer. Doing hybrids on tandems. Cutting people off on landing while doing really big turns. Pencil packing rigs. Refusing to give and recieve gear checks. And doing other really bad stuff. muhahaha :D
--------
Of course people put goofy stuff in these. Maybe, as you say, the "Internet Jarred" is different from the "Real" one. But this is all the people on this forum have to go on.

Skydiving has always been about free expression and sometimes thumbing one's nose at the "establishment". I started jumping at 19 a long time ago, and have seen and done a lot of it. A time-honored concept, however, has been, "Don't kill the innocents". This includes Tandem Pax. That's what the heart of this discussion has been about. No one cares (at least I don't) if Jarred downsizes, hooks, jumps with no AAD, etc. That's his personal choice affecting his personal safety. It's the safety of someone's Mom, who comes out to make one tandem jump that we're talking about. That person doesn't know the added risk of a video jumper under them in freefall, and has no say in it. The person responsible is the video guy, who has shown questionable judgement.

When you go to a party and drop a turd in the punchbowl - even if you are a really nice person, that turd makes a pretty poor impression.

Kevin
_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

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If people are really concerned about it then call his home DZ up and ask why they allow it.

Edited to add: Based off his videos it isn't hard to figure out where he did the tandem videos he shot.

"You start off your skydiving career with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience up before your bag of luck runs out."

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