Tell a student to quit

[Squeak 17]

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Both of my parents were teachers and I would often hear both sides. Either the student had no desire to learn or they just didn't posses the mental capacity to wrap their heads around certain ideas. Can everyone learn Quantum Physics? Even if someone has a sincere interest in learning it sometimes a person's mind doesn't have the capacity to do so. Look at a school example. Say you have two people one person barely goes to class and is able to pull off an A. The other person is struggling and putting in hours of studying, meeting with the professor, and giving 110%. At the end of this class they fail because their work wasn't correct. Is that the fault of the professor or is that person just not cut out for learning that particular subject? Back to skydiving. What if the student poses a serious safety risk to themselves or others? At what point do you step in and tell them to reconsider things in the interest of safety? This is a very interesting thread and a great point to discuss.

Yes providing there is not mental problem, anyone can learn Quantum physicis, what it may need is for the student to be taken back a few years to make certain that their foundation is solid. This is somthing teachers generally dont have the time nor inclination to do.
I know this to be true becuaser it's what i do. Many of the kids i start with are at different levels if I just chose to reach to the aVERAGE LEVEL I WOULD LOSE MANY OF MY KIDS. VSO ALL MY KIDS ARE ON INDIVIUAL LEARNING PLANS.(oops sorry ) some kids are learning aT A YEAR 5 LEVEL OTHER AT A YEAR 11

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Ms.sofaking 0]

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Yes providing there is not mental problem, anyone can learn Quantum physicis, what it may need is for the student to be taken back a few years to make certain that their foundation is solid. This is somthing teachers generally dont have the time nor inclination to do.

I beg to differ here. I'm not saying all people who struggle with learning to skydive have low IQ's.
There could be many reasons.But people do have different IQ's. Which has nothing to do with cumulative knowledge, but what one is capable of learning. And reasoning skills. We are not all made the same. I think what you are talking about is far beyond the realm of a skydiving instructor's job.Are you suggesting he go back years in one's life and help them build a solid foundation? His responsibillity to his student is to teach skydiving and recognize when a student is a danger.

How long do you let someone endanger themselves or others?

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[Squeak 17]

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There could be many reasons.But people do have different IQ's. Which has nothing to do with cumulative knowledge, but what one is capable of learning. And reasoning skills. We are not all made the same. I think what you are talking about is far beyond the realm of a skydiving instructor's job.Are you suggesting he go back years in one's life and help them build a solid foundation? His responsibillity to his student is to teach skydiving and recognize when a student is a danger.

How long do you let someone endanger themselves or others?

Do you seriously think I mean that the instructor would personally do all of the foundation building of the student
If the student is motivated enough, and they are given the proper direction they will go and build the requisite skills and come back at a later stage.
MY assertion is that all things being considered NO ONE is UNTEACHABLE

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[damion75 0]

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The only real thing that is required by the student is a strong enough desire to want to learn. I've seen people move moutains with the right motivation and help.

and

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If the student is motivated enough, and they are given the proper direction they will go and build the requisite skills and come back at a later stage.
MY assertion is that all things being considered NO ONE is UNTEACHABLE

Sorry - this is all a bit 60's for me. People have different strengths and aptitudes, both mentally and physically. Some are clumsy, some are dextrous. Some are bright, some are not. These are not all learned skills - they have just as much to do with 'brain wiring'. So no, I don't buy into that idea that everyone is equal and you can teach anyone anything.

The far more pressing issue though, is one of time. Drilling home lifesaving skills to a less suited student may be possible given enough time. But that 'time' will only increase with each jump and on each of those jumps they are in danger because they just haven't got it yet. This is a major increase in risk to the student - but while the instructor will know this, the student may not.

A case in point, back when I was doing AFF, was the guy who suffered sensory overload on every jump and went foetal. After 5 x AFF L1 doing this, he got the talk. Nothing to do with the instruction - his brain just couldn't cope. This may have saved his life - so was it wrong?

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.

[Squeak 17]

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A case in point, back when I was doing AFF, was the guy who suffered sensory overload on every jump and went foetal. After 5 x AFF L1 doing this, he got the talk. Nothing to do with the instruction - his brain just couldn't cope. This may have saved his life - so was it wrong?

So what you are telling me is that there is no way no how that someone could have helped him deal with his sensory overload. That it didnt matter that he have have been able to go aw3ay and get the required assistance, over come his problem then come back and try again.
Well all i can say is I"m glad you were not one of my teachers

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Firephoto 0]

Not that I have a lot of skydiving experience which I don't I am a new skydiver, but I am a fire fighting Instructor so I kinda have some feelings on this subject.

Any student can be taught to do anything.

Not every student can be taught to do anything well.

Just because a student is not living up to "your" standards as an instructor or what you think a skydiver or in my case a firefighter should be, you need to ask your self if the person can function safely.

If the answer is no then you need to ask your self as an instructor why that is. Is it your own fault for being to judgemental or are you just a bad instructor.

There are people in the fire academy who have been firefighter for 20 or so years and are the greatest firefighters I have ever met, but they are also the worst instructors I have ever met. It just goes to show that not everyone is cut out to ba an instructor. Sorry for getting a little off topic, but what ever.

The only reason for telling someone to quit is after exhausting all other options, and they are constantly acting unsafe. If they can't do it physically send them to the gym, if they are having problems getting stable send them to a tunnel. There is always another way to get through to someone, maybe send them to another instructor. Or try a different approach with your teaching methods.

Well, that is just my 2 cents.

and just to add I am sure no one here is a bad instructor, I was just generalising

[wmw999 2,120]

I thought the student the Billvon mentioned who was finally cautioned to not do anything too challenging because he was so slow was a really great example of the kind of person who proves that you can teach anyone if you try hard enough, and they want to badly enough.

There are 2 parts to it. Most people focus on one side of the equation. But the untalented student who really, really wants to do it needs to make sacrifices that aren't required of the more-talented student. Like giving up on social life, or having it cost more money, etc.

Sometimes people are unteachable because they're not willing to invest what it takes to learn. The onus is more on the instructor than on the student, but a student who fucks off all the time and is unwilling to change might not be a good investment. But tell them THAT, and not that they're not capable.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Ms.sofaking 0]

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Do you seriously think I mean that the instructor would personally do all of the foundation building of the student
If the student is motivated enough, and they are given the proper direction they will go and build the requisite skills and come back at a later stage.
MY assertion is that all things being considered NO ONE is UNTEACHABLE

I thought we were talking about a skydiving instuctors responsibillity to the student. It seemed like you were implying in this thread if someone was a good instructor they would exhaust all means. The thread is about having "the talk" with a student. So do you believe it is up to the instructor to have this talk and include alternative solutions to enable a person to come back later?
I'm all for someone exhausting all means to achieve their goals. However, I still disagree, aside from mental or physical disabillities, anyone can be taught anything. I think many difficult students can overcome their problems, but, not ALL. We do not all have the same capacity to learn. I guess we just disagree.

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[denete 2]

Yes, I am a student, and yes I am going to give you my opinion.

I have no problem whatsoever with an instructor telling me that I'm not cut out for skydiving, not yet ready to continue / advance, not responding to my EP reviews fast enough, etc.

I want someone who knows the sport better than I do telling me if I'm in position to be able to save my life. Guess what, my ego is not so fragile that I'm going to have a bad reaction to this. If it were, I probably shouldn't be jumping solo anyhow.

I don't want to be in the air when the student who isn't "getting it" puts my life in danger either. I am a teacher myself, and I do believe that I can teach just about anybody. But, I also belielve that every student has a point at which they max out. If one maxes out at being able to put on a jumpsuit, helmet, and goggles, then they are probably a tandem candidate. Sure, you can teach them by rote, but if you know that under stress they will freeze, you can bet that I will not be the person that says they are ready to go save their life.

Please, let them have the experience of a lifetime (tandem) but don't put them in a position to kill me.

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

[Ms.sofaking 0]

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I don't want to be in the air when the student who isn't "getting it" puts my life in danger either.

I think an instructor also has the responsibillity of not allowing the student to endanger other people.

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Please, let them have the experience of a lifetime (tandem) but don't put them in a position to kill me.

That might be an interesting conversation an instuctor could have with your family
"The student was known to be unsafe an make poor decisions, but I thought anyone could be taught anything, and they had a strong desire to learn. I'm sure if I had ,had more time I could have taught them. Sorry, I was just trying to be a good teacher."

Would that be considered negligence?

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[popsjumper 2]

Aw hell, David...we were having fun arguing and here you go putting logic and common sense into it....







Bottom line, folks...sometimes you just have to say "Screw it" or "better safe than sorry" or "Shit or get off the pot".

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Squeak 17]

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I don't want to be in the air when the student who isn't "getting it" puts my life in danger either.

I think an instructor also has the responsibillity of not allowing the student to endanger other people.

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Please, let them have the experience of a lifetime (tandem) but don't put them in a position to kill me.

That might be an interesting conversation an instuctor could have with your family
"The student was known to be unsafe an make poor decisions, but I thought anyone could be taught anything, and they had a strong desire to learn. I'm sure if I had ,had more time I could have taught them. Sorry, I was just trying to be a good teacher."

Would that be considered negligence?

No sure, but that scenario would be considered ridiculous. thanks for illustrating just how closed minded you are to the topic.
I shall waste no futher bandwidth on you

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[riggerrob 558]

Yes!
... because the primary duty - of any instructor - is keeping students alive.

[riggerrob 558]

... anyone can learn Quantum physics ...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sorry dude, but we are just going to have to agree to be gentlemen and agree to disagree on this subject.

I will never understand Quantum Physics.
Sure, I have read a dozen books about Quantum Physics and listened to dozens more explanations, but none of them sank in.
A large part of my learning block is caused by the clashes between Quantum Physics and what I already understand about Mechanical Engineering (specifically fluid dynamics and structures).
Furthermore, I am not motivated to learn Quantum Physics because I cannot see practical applications for Quantum Physics.
Rather, I am hoping that applying all my brain cells, for the rest of my life - might give me a working knowledge of TSO-testing procedures (Applied Mechanical Engineering).

In conclusion, some of us are simply not bright enough to grasp Quantum Physics.

[kallend 1,623]

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Can everyone learn Quantum Physics?

I have been teaching quantum physics for more than 30 years. While some apparently unlikely students had little trouble with it, my experience leads me to believe that there are people who will never get it no matter how hard they try and no matter who teaches or tutors them.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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... anyone can learn Quantum physics ...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sorry dude, but we are just going to have to agree to be gentlemen and agree to disagree on this subject.

I will never understand Quantum Physics.
Sure, I have read a dozen books about Quantum Physics and listened to dozens more explanations, but none of them sank in.
A large part of my learning block is caused by the clashes between Quantum Physics and what I already understand about Mechanical Engineering (specifically fluid dynamics and structures).
Furthermore, I am not motivated to learn Quantum Physics because I cannot see practical applications for Quantum Physics.
Rather, I am hoping that applying all my brain cells, for the rest of my life - might give me a working knowledge of TSO-testing procedures (Applied Mechanical Engineering).

In conclusion, some of us are simply not bright enough to grasp Quantum Physics.

Let me try again.

It is a teacher's responsibility not to place a student in danger if they do not have the requisite skills, especially in skydiving or fire fighting.
A teacher should not say you are not cut out for xyz, (skydiving or fire fighting or quantum mechanics.)
Sometimes a specific teacher and a specific student just do not connect.
Then you need to get a different teacher.

It is wrong to say to a skydiving student that they can never become a skydiver. A teacher, who only knows the student for a short time, may not know what motivates the student or why a student is struggling. Kudos to those instructors that can figure it out. But to summarily dismiss a student and tell them they can never become a skydiver is rather presumptuous and most often incorrect.

I've taught physics, math and skydiving professionally. These are all difficult subjects. The students that had problems generally were missing some fundamental knowledge or skill that the current lesson was based upon. It wasn't until you filled in the missing knowledge or skill that they could succeed. Teachers that say someone is not cut out for xyz because they do not understand that a student is missing some fundamental knowledge or skill are wrong.

Rob, if you want to learn about quantum mechanics and how those laser cutters work, let me know.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Squeak 17]

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Can everyone learn Quantum Physics?

I have been teaching quantum physics for more than 30 years. While some apparently unlikely students had little trouble with it, my experience leads me to believe that there are people who will never get it no matter how hard they try and no matter who teaches or tutors them.

Not if they are trying to teach them without the proper foundations

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[MakeItHappen 15]

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... anyone can learn Quantum physics ...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sorry dude, but we are just going to have to agree to be gentlemen and agree to disagree on this subject.

I will never understand Quantum Physics.
Sure, I have read a dozen books about Quantum Physics and listened to dozens more explanations, but none of them sank in.
A large part of my learning block is caused by the clashes between Quantum Physics and what I already understand about Mechanical Engineering (specifically fluid dynamics and structures).
Furthermore, I am not motivated to learn Quantum Physics because I cannot see practical applications for Quantum Physics.
Rather, I am hoping that applying all my brain cells, for the rest of my life - might give me a working knowledge of TSO-testing procedures (Applied Mechanical Engineering).

In conclusion, some of us are simply not bright enough to grasp Quantum Physics.

Meet Joe
Joe is in his sleep state.

Meet Joe.
Joe is in his couch potato state.

Meet Joe.
Joe is in his stand-up and walking around state.

Meet Joe.
Joe is in his break dancing state.

A day in the life of Joe goes like this.
Joe wakes up from his sleep state and then stands up to walk around. He has a Wheaties breakfast to get him into a higher energy state.

Joe drinks a Go-Fast energy drink. Joe now enters his break dancing state, full of energy.

Joe dances for several minutes and collapses into his couch potato state.

This is quantum mechanics, albeit simplified.

If Joe were a molecule or atom, then there are discrete energy states that Joe could be in. For Joe, it would be sleep, couch potato, stand-up or break dancing.

Joe needs the addition of energy to move from a low energy state to a high energy state. That Wheaties breakfast or Go-Fast drink boost his energy levels. Joe needs the removal of energy to move from a high energy state to a lower energy state. All that dancing takes energy and works up a good sweat.

Molecules and atoms don't break dance. Instead they give off electromagnetic (EM) energy. Electromagnetic energy is radiation that is sometimes in the form of visible light. Sometimes it may be heat radiation (at lower frequencies).

A laser cutter works the same way Joe does. A bunch of energy is supplied to a bunch of molecules or atoms in a sleep state. The atoms dance around for a while at the break dancing state and then collapse into a lower energy state, the couch potato state. A little photon (a chunk of light energy) is produced. A bunch of mirrors are used to collect and focus the photons into a pinpoint beam of EM energy. This beam is used to cut materials.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[winsor 186]

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Have any of you instructors ever had a student that wanted to skydive, but simply wasn't getting it? Has anyone ever straight out told a student that they didn't seem to be getting it and that could get them hurt or dead? Having a small amount of instructing experience in my proffesional life, I know that when I run into someone like that, I don't say that. I take it personal, sort of, and view it as a failure on my part if I can't get them to 'get it'. The worst that can happen to them is they can't get what they want from the software I train them on.
Obviously, skydiving is a little different.

I am not a skydiving instructor; my instructing credentials are in Physics and Firearms. I have, however, been detailed to give someone "the talk" on more than one occasion.

The commonality between firearms and skydiving is significant in that neither is particularly forgiving of gross lapses of procedure. In both there are fundamental principles which, if not grasped fully in advance, can result in immediate death or ghastly injury.

I am strongly convinced that not everyone is cut out for this hobby. Maybe limiting someone to static line jumps on rounds with an AAD-equipped reserve would place low enough demands on them if their decision making skills are not up to sorting things out with a planet coming at them at 120 mph, but even there you have a limit.

I know of one very motivated individual who is limited to an endless series of tandems because her decision-making skills are the pits. I watched her open a soda, which began to overflow, whereupon she continued to open it - amazed that it then poured all over the packing area. Retightening the cap the moment it began to fizz over appeared to be beyond her grasp.

The reality of the sport is that it is dangerous as hell, and cuts nobody any slack as far as wrong or too-late decisions go. I have seen enough people die or get maimed that I have seen people come to grief whose downfall was no surprise to anyone.

Life is by its very nature a stochastic process, and in this sport we rely on the odds to a very great extent. If you hope that someone will beat the odds and survive long enough to catch on just by sheer luck, you are doing them no favor by encouraging them to continue.

"The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong. That is, however, the way to bet."


Blue skies,

Winsor

[denete 2]

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Aw hell, David...we were having fun arguing and here you go putting logic and common sense into it....

Guilty...but alive.

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

[popsjumper 2]

Joe Rocks!

"Joe needs the removal of energy to move from a high energy state to a lower energy state."

But, does Joe understand that he has to properly pull something to get from that 120mph high-energy state to that under-canopy lower energy state? If not, maybe Joe should stay with the break dancing.


...and anyway, that explains how the cutting beam is created but it doesn't explain how those laser cutters work...where's the resultant work?



Why do I see Mr. Kallend stepping in here?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[denete 2]

Water jet cutters are more fun.

SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

[Ms.sofaking 0]

Thanks A LOT!!!

Now, due to the limitations of my brain, I can't participate in this discussion!

I think you guys are just showing off!!!

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[RB_Hammer 0]

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Meet Joe
Joe is in his sleep state.

Because I like to type as little as possible, call this SS

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Meet Joe.
Joe is in his couch potato state.

Call this CP

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Meet Joe.
Joe is in his stand-up and walking around state.

Call this SU/WA

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Meet Joe.
Joe is in his break dancing state.

Call this BD

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A day in the life of Joe goes like this.
Joe wakes up from his sleep state and then stands up to walk around. He has a Wheaties breakfast to get him into a higher energy state.

Joe drinks a Go-Fast energy drink. Joe now enters his break dancing state, full of energy.

Joe dances for several minutes and collapses into his couch potato state.

This is quantum mechanics, albeit simplified.

Ok, I understand all of that so far. Joe get energy to go to the BD stateWhat causes Joe to go from the CP state to SS? What causes Joe to go from SS to SU/WA state?



I posted this not because I am an instructor, or know of someone that, in my opinion, should get the TUG/TUB talk, but because I was thinking of all of the people I see these days that simply have no business at all riding a motorcycle, much less a heavy, high powered bike like the HD's.
I have been riding for over 40 years, all types of riding, street, dirt, motocross, TT, trials road track and oval, dirt and asphalt, so I do have a lot of experience and knowledge in that sport. Usually, I can tell a person's riding skill by watching them simply leave from a standing start, like at a traffic light, and the way they stop.
I know not all of them have actually taken a riding course, but I have seen some riders been passed on an experienced rider course that really did not 'get it'. I know the reason they were passed, it is simply not a course that matters whether you pass or not, it is to learn skills and gater knowledge. Passing or failing does not get you any benefit, except some insurance companies will give a small discount for the pass. The other reason is the instructors want the students to be happy.
I have also seen students taking the beginning riding course that will allow them to get a MC endorsement on the drivers license for passing. Not all of them pass. The instructors I know that have failed people on this did so because they were not getting the skills and knowledge they need to be able to ride. On this course, having a happy student makes no difference. The student has a defined set of skills and knowledge they must display to pass. All students must do this.
Despite someone passing this beginning riding test, I have seen some that are going to get themselves killed riding because they simply did not really 'get it'.
I figured there must some that are skydiving that are like that and wanted to ask the instructors out there about it.
Great replies from all.

"I'm not lost. I don't know where I'm going, but there's no sense in being late."
Mathew Quigley

[crotalus01 0]

"NO ONE is UNTEACHABLE"

Dead wrong statement. To take it to the extreme the braindead and comatose are unteachable by virtue of the fact that they have no self-awareness and/or brain function.
Do you really think you could teach my cousin to skydive??? He has moderate Down's Syndrome by the way, so that might be a problem. He can't drive so I am guessing skydiving might be unteachable to him no matter how determined he might be to learn it.
Bottom line is there are some people who simply cannot grasp some concepts. I work with plenty of them, and have seen more than a few try to learn to skydive and fail (fortunately skydiving seems to have a failsafe where those individuals realize they are in over their heads before they bounce or kill someone else).

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...