Tell a student to quit

[Squeak 17]

Quote

>I still see nothing that tells me that they cant be taught.

You can teach procedures, body position, dive flows and manuevers. You can teach BSR's and DZ rules and canopy control guidelines. You cannot teach good judgment.

Yes you can how do you think we teach children good judgment

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[billvon 2,384]

>Yes you can how do you think we teach children good judgment

By starting at it at year 1 and spending the next 16 years reinforcing it. It's not something you can learn in a day, or a week, or even a year at age 30.

[riggerrob 558]

We had a similar student - in Nova Scotia - a long time ago. He alternated between two clubs, never really learning much at either club. Gear and emergency procedures differed between clubs.

He suffered a partial malfunction on his last jump. He wasted the rest of the dive trying to open rusty Capewells. He never touched the reserve ripcord. Fortunately, Saint Francis Xavier Chevrier was on duty that day.
We found him sitting a field - beside the DZ - still trying to open Capewells.

[Ms.sofaking 0]

So jump after jump, injury after injury if the students desire is strong enough, do you think they should continue to seek better coaching?And hopefully they find that right teacher before they kill themselves or someone else?
I could have a strong desire to be a professional football player, at 5'-7" 130 lbs, do you think if I find the right teacher I could do this? Or, is it possible I just wasn't made for it?

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[MakeItHappen 15]

I think most of you are missing the point.

It is not a teacher's place to tell someone they cannot do something.
It is up to the individual to decide whether they can or cannot do something.
It is a teacher's place to encourage students and let students know what it takes to do such-n-such. From the stories related here, it appears that some students were put into a jump without knowing what to do.
A teacher should also say that a student does not have the skills to do such-n-such and needs more training.
A teacher should be aware that fear may be the 'blocker' to a good performance, not the mechanical or intellectual requirements. Many times in skydiving, this is the root cause of students screwing up. Many instructors do not teach students coping skills or give them confidence in their ability.

See also POE
Stephanie Weimer
Darby Lentz
HEATHER SUE MERCER
Katie Hnida


.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[airtwardo 6]

I could have a strong desire to be a professional football player, at 5'-7" 130 lbs,

Quote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_James

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

• Quote

[Ms.sofaking 0]

I agree it is not up to the teacher to make that decision. But, I think it's up to a teacher to recognize a problem, and guide a student to make that decision for themselves.
I don't believe overcoming our faults is impossible to achieve. But when those faults are becoming a danger to yourself and others, I don't think skydiving is the proper format for overcoming them.

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[Ms.sofaking 0]

I knew that would come back on me!

He still has 41 lbs on me

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[riggerrob 558]

In a perfect world, every instructor would be able to teach every student. Unfortunately, not all of us are that bright.

For example: I have taught the first jump course in english and french. I have also done dozens of tandem jumps with students who only spoke german. However, my command of japanese is so weak that I will not even pretend to be able to teach the finer points of skydiving to japanese students.

Just as we screen instructors for language skills, we also screen students for language skills, strength, flexibility, balance, etc.
Most skydiving schools have some sort of screening process to weed out the most difficult students. Military schools are cruel when they screen students, but civilian schools have to be far more subtle.
Pacific Skydivers warns potential students that we won't do tandem jumps with women weighing over 200 or men over 240 pounds. That is because most men weighing more than 240 pounds have more flab than muscle, which vastly increases their risk of injury.
During the 1970s, I carried enough stretchers off of enough DZs to learn that lesson.

On a similar note: tandems with paraplegics require me to work three times harder, but I don't get paid any more, ergo they are "high risk, low return" jumps.
Where is the financial incentive to do tandems with paraplegics?

[livendive 8]

Quote

>I still see nothing that tells me that they cant be taught.

You can teach procedures, body position, dive flows and manuevers. You can teach BSR's and DZ rules and canopy control guidelines. You cannot teach good judgment.

What he said. You (or at least I) cannot teach proper emotional reactions to stress. I can stress cool, calm, and collected. I can be reassuring, and try to build confidence. But a person who panics under pressure is beyond my abilities, and I similarly can't teach those who refuse to learn. I've given the speech twice. I've got a current student who's been mentioned in this context by a couple of people, but I'm not quite convinced yet and will continue to try. Many people who are not cut out for skydiving never try it. Of those who do, self-preservation instincts usually kick in and most leave the sport on their own. Those who remain should first get our best efforts, but they should also get a respectful TUG speech when appropriate.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I have over 20 years instructing SCUBA and I"m a professional educator of difficult to educate students. I have yet to come across someone who CANT be taught if their desire is strong enough

Divers have an advantage in that there are very few circumstances that can't wait 5 or 20 seconds for you to take a breath and clear your mind. But people who are panic prone and respond to panic by bolting for the surface probably can't be fixed without rolling the dice on their lives. How do you teach stress management and panic avoidance?

and then there are those who listen to you remind them to dive their plan, be part of their team, and 10 minutes in they abandon their buddy. I've all for solo diving (perhaps 50% of mine are), but only when that's the plan. I'd be reluctant to pass a student that puts their buddy at risk every time. This skill can be learned, but only if the person chooses to.

Last, if you can't carry the 70-100lbs of gear necessary to dive in cold water, you probably should restrict yourself to warmer areas.

[MakeItHappen 15]

Quote

In a perfect world, every instructor would be able to teach every student. Unfortunately, not all of us are that bright.

Well, Rob, you just proved the point.
No instructor of whatever topic should tell a student that they are not cut out for it (whatever topic).
Maybe there is a disconnect between student and teacher and another teacher may do better.
It's up to the student to determine if they have the desire and capability to learn whatever else they have to do for xyz discipline.
You have no right to discount someone's aspirations because you suck as a teacher.

Quote

On a similar note: tandems with paraplegics require me to work three times harder, but I don't get paid any more, ergo they are "high risk, low return" jumps.
Where is the financial incentive to do tandems with paraplegics?

Then don't do tandems with paras. You obviously have no idea of why someone physically challenged may want to do what the rest of us take for granted.

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[billvon 2,384]

>It is not a teacher's place to tell someone they cannot do something.

It is a teacher's responsibility to apply their more-developed judgment in cases where the student cannot yet apply the same level of judgment. I am sure that if someone with 8 jumps wanted to do a 60 way at a camp you were organizing, you would tell them they could not do it - even if they had a long and heartfelt explanation of how they were certain they were up to the task. Indeed, if they never got any better, you would tell them they could not do it every time they asked.

That's not because you are mean, or a bad teacher, or you don't "know your place." Indeed, I am sure you would encourage them to seek out additional training, even help them get that training. But if they never got any better, you would indeed decide it was your place to tell them what they could and couldn't do.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

...You have no right to discount someone's aspirations because you suck as a teacher.

From your replies what I'm getting is:

It's the instructor/teacher's responsibility to overcome any and all obstacles a student may present to you that would prevent him/her from making a survivable skydive and in correlation, if he/she goes out and kills themselves, it's the instructor's fault.

BS.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[Squeak 17]

Quote

So jump after jump, injury after injury if the students desire is strong enough, do you think they should continue to seek better coaching?And hopefully they find that right teacher before they kill themselves or someone else?
I could have a strong desire to be a professional football player, at 5'-7" 130 lbs, do you think if I find the right teacher I could do this? Or, is it possible I just wasn't made for it?

So did you actually READ what I typed, check on the words ALTERNATIVE STRATEGIES, Alos check on the sentance that has the words PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS
Teaching someone how to deal with a stressful situation does not always involve putting them in that "at Risk" position all the time

And Bill, if the people you deal with CANT be taught good judgment find a better teacher.
It's been my experience that those who are motivated can be taught.

Skydiving is skill, skills can be taught,

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[pchapman 261]

MakeItHappen wrote:

Quote

It is up to the individual to decide whether they can or cannot do something.

That is a more 'inclusive' way of doing things. Present the facts as best you see them to the student, then let them make the decision. That sounds like an ideal way, although there will be times an instructor has to "say no" due to safety.

Sometimes it goes the other way: an instructor will push a student to do something the student hesitates to do. This is a trickier moral issue but realistically it happens -- where the student apparently has the technical knowledge and skills, despite some self doubt and fear, and may benefit from a bit of a push, figuratively.

This thread reminds us that there are ways around many problems, other than believing that the student is simply an idiot. It's nice to see some concrete ideas on how to deal with particular situations.

I'll try to summarize some ideas off the top of my head, many of which repeat ideas in this thread:

When faced with a "slow learner":

- Try a different instructor who might 'click' better with the student.
- Try different instructional techniques. (Different learning styles for different people.)
- Go back to basics to see if something didn't get enough emphasis earlier in the training.
- Accept that some people take more time to learn certain things, and could still end up being good skydivers.
- Also look for causes beyond simple technical knowledge. ("Maybe she screwed up not because she's too stupid to follow instructions, but because she has some fear & stress issues that need dealing with first.")

Some things are tougher to deal with:

- Weight and strength: There are gear limits, and poor fitness can increase injury risk. Still, there are ways to deal with such issues (Eg, the small-girl-lousy-flare syndrome - may be improved by more precise flare technique and not too low a wing loading to learn on).
- Language issues: Not always something we as individuals can solve.
- Time: There's a limit on how long an instructor will teach given what he's being paid. That's not to say a DZ wouldn't set up some extra instruction to help a student with problems. It's not that the student can't learn; it's just that they aren't keeping up with what is "normal".
- Underlying fear & stress issues: (Which at their worst can lead to panic.) While instructors do get some training on how to deal with it, I think it is harder for some of us to grasp the problem and to deal with it, compared to dealing with more technical issues.
- Awareness issues: This is also tougher to deal with than simple knowledge and skills. It's one thing if a student screws up and realizes it, but it's a bigger issue if they can't seem to be made to be aware that they were in danger.
- Attitude issues: At some point a student will have been given plenty of opportunity to learn but the student's unwillingness to learn hinders the process. (Even those saying in this thread 'anyone can be taught', usually also are saying '...if they are motivated')

[billvon 2,384]

>And Bill, if the people you deal with CANT be taught good judgment find a better teacher.

You have different experiences than I do, then. Good judgment comes from a lifetime of learning, bad experiences, good experiences, good role models etc. I find it is not something that can be taught in a few days (or even a few weeks or months.)

If it were possible to teach good judgment to every single person, the world would be a very different place than it is today.

[livendive 8]

Quote

Quote

In a perfect world, every instructor would be able to teach every student. Unfortunately, not all of us are that bright.

Well, Rob, you just proved the point.
No instructor of whatever topic should tell a student that they are not cut out for it (whatever topic).

I prefer my students remain alive, albeit retired, to feeling the guilt and self-doubt that I suspect comes with one dying. If I have to hurt some feelers in the pursuit of that goal, so be it. Telling someone who panics at 3500 feet and waits for his AAD to fire that his stress response is probably better suited for mountain climbing or scuba diving than skydiving is within my comfort level. Some people need a pause button when confronted with a problem, to collect their thoughts and decide on a path forward. Skydiving isn't particularly tolerant of such respites. If you think he just needs a better teacher, can I give him your number?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Squeak 17]

[reply
If it were possible to teach good judgment to every single person, the world would be a very different place than it is today.

[Ms.sofaking 0]

Quote

So did you actually READ what I typed, check on the words ALTERNATIVE STRATEGIES, Alos check on the sentance that has the words PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS
Teaching someone how to deal with a stressful situation does not always involve putting them in that "at Risk" position all the time

Yes, I did read what you wrote. And you are right, I did give an example of a physical limitation in my attempt to point out we aren't all made the same.

By seeking better coaching, I was wondering if that was your alternative method. Another coach? Or are you saying learn how to cope with fear/panic whatever your issue is, outside of skydiving, then come back?

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[billvon 2,384]

>See this is where our differences lie, it is possible to TEACH, however
>not everyone is willing to learn.'

If that was "not everyone is willing and/or able to learn" I'd agree.

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

not an instructor, so I've never done this, but I know a few that have had to... one guy told someone to take up bowling after having to pull for him on 5 consecutive AFF jumps. The guy did everything else great, but just didn't get the part where you had to F***ING PULL!!

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[Squeak 17]

Quote

***

Yes, I did read what you wrote. And you are right, I did give an example of a physical limitation in my attempt to point out we aren't all made the same.

By seeking better coaching, I was wondering if that was your alternative method. Another coach? Or are you saying learn how to cope with fear/panic whatever your issue is, outside of skydiving, then come back?

Yes that exactly what I'm saying, there are thousands of way to help people learn to deal with difficult situations. The only real thing that is required by the student is a strong enough desire to want to learn. I've seen people move moutains with the right motivation and help.
I will never subscribe to any theory that suports "the unteachble"

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Ms.sofaking 0]

I believe people can overcome many obstacles. If the obstacle you are trying to overcome is poor judgement or decision making, panic or freezing in emergency situations that require quick response time, I think this is something that should be overcome elsewhere. Somewhere your life is not dependant on skills you don't possess. I still feel it is the instructors responsibillty to point out whatever issues may be endangering your life.

Steer them out of skydiving until the problem is resolved.

"I'm not sure how it's going to turn out, except I'll die in the end, she said. So what could really go wrong? -----Brian Andreas

[mnskydiver688 0]

Both of my parents were teachers and I would often hear both sides. Either the student had no desire to learn or they just didn't posses the mental capacity to wrap their heads around certain ideas. Can everyone learn Quantum Physics? Even if someone has a sincere interest in learning it sometimes a person's mind doesn't have the capacity to do so. Look at a school example. Say you have two people one person barely goes to class and is able to pull off an A. The other person is struggling and putting in hours of studying, meeting with the professor, and giving 110%. At the end of this class they fail because their work wasn't correct. Is that the fault of the professor or is that person just not cut out for learning that particular subject? Back to skydiving. What if the student poses a serious safety risk to themselves or others? At what point do you step in and tell them to reconsider things in the interest of safety? This is a very interesting thread and a great point to discuss.

Sky Canyon Wingsuiters