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Work done on a rig without consent.

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While I'm going to count your response as a rigger I wouldn't do business with again.

Mark.



I'm sorry I don't understand which comment you are replying to or what you're trying to say. Do you mean:

-- you'd rather be rigless than have repairs done without your explicit consent? or
-- you'd refuse to pay the bill? or
-- you'd pay the bill but then take your business elsewhere? or
-- as a rigger you wouldn't do business again with a customer who put you in the position of having to choose?

Mark

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I'm not a rigger and obviously a newbie. But I wouldn't be "guesing" the right call. My answer would be "I called multiple times, no answer. We all know what assumptions lead to" also, why would a reputable rigger put themselves in that spot? On the line for unauthorized repair. Just sounds shady.



Let me up the stakes for you.

You've got your skydiving vacation planned. Non-refundable airplane tickets, hotel reservations, etc. -- the works. You drop by the dz go to pick up your rig on the way to the airport, and your rigger says, "I'm sorry, I was unable to get hold of you to get authorization to fix something that in my professional judgment you need for your rig to be airworthy."

See, the problem is that there isn't a right answer. Your rigger has to make a decision based on limited knowledge, and whichever way he chooses, sometimes someone is going to be unhappy.

If you do not trust your rigger's judgment, if you do not believe he has your best interests at heart, why did you bring your rig to him?

Mark



Your lack of preparation is not my emergency.

I tell my rigger (who is one of the most anal people I know) - fix all the little stuff you want - if shit's gonna get expensive, call me. But then again , I trust him completely.

Much like a work order sent to PD. I sent in a canopy for a reline - I got a call after inspection letting me know of a tear they found. They don't proceed with repairs without customer authorization.

Get a new rigger and a better relationship with them.

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That's a stretch isn't it?



Yup, sure is.

Mark



Bad planning by the jumper does not create an emergency for the rigger, so why should the rigger behave as if its an emergency?

Even after you up the scenario I do not believe the rigger should do unauthorised work. We are all well connected these days, so if your rig is in at your rigger cause you need it badly and he calls you but you don't return his call... well its on the jumper.

That said, I like the idea that a rigger should ba allowed to do $25 of work without having to call me. Good to have that kind of agreement in place.
"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

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See, the problem is that there isn't a right answer. Your rigger has to make a decision based on limited knowledge, and whichever way he chooses, sometimes someone is going to be unhappy.


There absolutely is a right answer. Don't perform any work without authorization. Or if you do, do it with the understanding that you may not get paid for it. I would expect the same decision in any industry. I understand that you're trying to say, and I appreciate the sentiment, but performing work unauthorized is not your call to make. If it's not ready, then it's not ready. Your customer is the asshole here for dropping it off without enough time and not being available to contact, not you.

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If you do not trust your rigger's judgment, if you do not believe he has your best interests at heart, why did you bring your rig to him?


It has nothing to do with trust. I trust my mechanic and I would be more than a little miffed if he did work on my car without asking. Would I get the work done anyway? Probably, but it's my call, not his. I trust my rigger too and my attitude would be the same involving a rig.

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Riggers are like any other group of people, there are good ones and bad ones, honest ones and dishonest ones.



And I'll add that it isn't black or white whether someone is good or not, there's also a lot of differing opinions out there, and different ways things are done in different areas. There are plenty of things some riggers find totally unacceptable on a rig, while others think is quite acceptable even if not ideal.


One thing that can catch a rigger is if they have a rig for a while and then try to do the entire I+R just before the rig is needed. Of course the jumper wants a late repack date, and it can be a pain for the rigger to have a bunch of unpacked rigs lying around, but if you inspect the rig Thursday night when the rig needs to be ready for the weekend, then both the rigger and the owner are in a bit of a bind time wise if major issues are found.

Sometimes one can ease the shock on a customer by warning them a repack or two ahead of time: "The top inner widget is getting pretty worn. It is still acceptable and I'll pass it, but I strongly recommend we order a new one some time or else I'm not sure I'd pack this rig next season."

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While a $25 buffer sounds like a good idea to me as a rigger, it would frustrate the hell out of me as a customer...

Example:

Shortly before I became a rigger I took a rig I was selling to the Perris loft to have it repacked for sale to a friend. When I received the rig back, they had replaced all the elastic keepers on the rig and charged me a buck or so each... They did a couple other minor things like restitch a piece of unimportant velcro (pile) as well and charged me that $25... I was pissed... I was selling the rig and sure as shit didn't need them to replace those things that would not change the airworthyness of the rig.

I will never go back to that loft nor will I ever suggest a friend go. Hell, I take my tools with me each time I go to perris and if a friend has a mal, I offer to pack it for cheap so they will NOT go to the perris loft.

There are too many riggers out there trying to nickel and dime ya... If the customer isn't ok with it, the work doesn't get done. Period.

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I once replaced the main closing loop on a racer(it was just a piece of gutted 550 with a loop that was 18'' long, not finger trapped). everyone in loft agreed that it was dangerous as the loop COULD catch the corner of the main bag and trap it. we didnt even charge the guy for it. he went absolutely ballistic had to give him his old loop back , even after explaining to him the danger involved. you just cant satisfy some people.

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I once replaced the main closing loop on a racer(it was just a piece of gutted 550 with a loop that was 18'' long, not finger trapped). everyone in loft agreed that it was dangerous as the loop COULD catch the corner of the main bag and trap it. we didnt even charge the guy for it. he went absolutely ballistic had to give him his old loop back , even after explaining to him the danger involved. you just cant satisfy some people.



I thought main closing loops lasted pretty much forever until my rigger moved and after replacing a couple of frayed loops I realized that he'd been changing them out at no charge.

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The guy who needed his rig for a competition shouldn't have waited until the last minute to get his reserve repacked. Or should have had a backup rig available.

What would have happened if the work was going to take longer? Or if it needed parts that would have to be shipped?

I won't do any extra cost work without specific approval from the customer. Period.



I'm going to count your reply as a vote to disappoint the guy who needed his rig. The score so far is: work 0, disappointment 2.

Mark

You can count me in the WORK score.
Actually I have 1 rigger who would do the work if small, and get hold of me for bigger work (Mister Colin Thompson working in Empuriabrava), my other riggers would only do the repack and/or very minor work.

I do trust Colin A LOT, for me he is a rigger of the third type. You know Senior Riggers and Master Riggers. To me he is a Jedi Rigger. Not only I find he doesn't charge MUCH for work (I+R are rather expensive though if you "only" need a repack), but when I go to his place, my "old" rigs come out as good as new. Plus he always spends LOTS of his time to explain what he did and why he did it. Even if I don't have work to give him, I always make sure to pay him a visit for a quick hello, and he always makes sure I get out of his loft 1 hour later, and more educated. And this from way before I had any interest in rigging.
Some other riggers, I wouldn't let them even repack my main or change a bungee on my dbag.
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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Truthfully, I don't think any riggers are out there 'making up' work just to stick the customer for the bill, especially one who still charges $40 for an I&R.



An alternate view (and I don't know the rigger in question so have no idea) is that the $40 rigger is like the "free oil change" auto shop. Sure, it's free, till we find all these other things that need to be done to your car for us to do the oil change.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

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Hi Mark,

Having been down this road more times that I would like, I finally started telling them that I had to have authorization to do $XX dollars of work without contacting them. Aterwards, they always got a detailed listing of the costs.

Then it was their choice to do business with me or not.

Do you do something similar?

Just curious; as regards your thoughts on this.

JerryBaumchen

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Much like a work order sent to PD. I sent in a canopy for a reline - I got a call after inspection letting me know of a tear they found. They don't proceed with repairs without customer authorization.



They might have done that for you but one of my customers since in a canopy for a reline after breaking multiple lines on an opening and got a bill not only for the reline but for washing the canopy since they found "unknown blood like stains",and a list of other small stuff that added up quickly. PD was great about working it out since it was unauthorized work and they took some of the charges off in the end but even shops like PD sometimes do things beyond what customers are expecting.

I will call my customers if the charges are going to be more than $25 or so over the normal stuff. I've had them say don't do it (replace BOC, replace Velcro, etc) and then find them jumping the gear a few weeks later and wondering why the risers keep coming out in freefall.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

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Much like a work order sent to PD. I sent in a canopy for a reline - I got a call after inspection letting me know of a tear they found. They don't proceed with repairs without customer authorization.



They might have done that for you but one of my customers since in a canopy for a reline after breaking multiple lines on an opening and got a bill not only for the reline but for washing the canopy since they found "unknown blood like stains",and a list of other small stuff that added up quickly. PD was great about working it out since it was unauthorized work and they took some of the charges off in the end but even shops like PD sometimes do things beyond what customers are expecting.

I will call my customers if the charges are going to be more than $25 or so over the normal stuff. I've had them say don't do it (replace BOC, replace Velcro, etc) and then find them jumping the gear a few weeks later and wondering why the risers keep coming out in freefall.


It was several years ago, different manufacturer...Split a seam in an older canopy and sent it back for repairs 'if possible / practical'.

Told 'em I didn't want to put a whole lot into it as it was a spare anyway, they fixed it & the tab was over half of what a new canopy cost! :S

My fault for not clearly outlining what 'a whole lot' was & their fault for not checking with me 1st.

Live & learn :|










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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See, the problem is that there isn't a right answer. Your rigger has to make a decision based on limited knowledge, and whichever way he chooses, sometimes someone is going to be unhappy.


There absolutely is a right answer. Don't perform any work without authorization. Or if you do, do it with the understanding that you may not get paid for it. I would expect the same decision in any industry. I understand that you're trying to say, and I appreciate the sentiment, but performing work unauthorized is not your call to make. If it's not ready, then it's not ready. Your customer is the asshole here for dropping it off without enough time and not being available to contact, not you.

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If you do not trust your rigger's judgment, if you do not believe he has your best interests at heart, why did you bring your rig to him?


It has nothing to do with trust. I trust my mechanic and I would be more than a little miffed if he did work on my car without asking. Would I get the work done anyway? Probably, but it's my call, not his. I trust my rigger too and my attitude would be the same involving a rig.



100% agree with this. I run a small loft and won't do any work over an inspection and repack without talking to the rig owner (although I have agreements with some to do whatever I want, regardless of cost.)

It doesn't feel right or even legal to me to do anything else without talking to the owner about other options (retire the rig, send it to the mf, pay me to do the work needed, take it to another loft, etc.)

There is a huge gray area on who will seal what rig.

I don't care how badly a guy needs to jump this weekend; if I won't seal the rig we need to talk. I won't do ANY unauthorized repairs.

IMO it's better to err on the safe side with rigging, always.

The world isn't gonna end, and hopefully you can borrow a rig.

To the OP: Sorry this happened. Sounds like bad communication all around.

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Having been down this road more times that I would like, I finally started telling them that I had to have authorization to do $XX dollars of work without contacting them. Aterwards, they always got a detailed listing of the costs.



Agree with Jerry.

As with most things in life, a small amount of pre-planning saves alot of headaches down the road.

As for my personal thoughts:
1) As of today, no one that hard to get a hold of. Between a work phone, a cell phone, a yahoo email account, facebook, etc, I've been contacted within minutes 15,000 miles away more times than I can remember on time sensative items.
2) Most riggers have some "commitment" to the understanding of how skydiving stuff works, where as there are alot of sport jumpers, justifiably so, that skydiving is just a part of their lives, ie, we can't expect every sport jumper that drops a rig off to truly grasp what SBs or what repair needs may be found after they leave it with us, thus, it is our obligation if we choose to take the work, to inform the customer A) if we find repairs under $XX, that we want their permission to do so, and that we will contact them if it is over that amount, AND it is their responsibility to be reasonably available to contact in that time frame, otherwise, we agree ahead of time, the work will not get done if I cant reach you.
3) For a rigger to perform hundreds of dollars of work on a rig without prior consent of the owner, thats a gamble on the riggers side of things, and if the customer refuses to pay it, if it hasnt been agreed upon prior, its on the rigger to eat the cost. Which, in the grand scheme of things, is mostly labor costs, which the rigger can choose or not to eat if the customer refuses to pay for unauthorized work.

In the end, most every rigger/customer issue is caused by lack of communication. Education is key in preventing these sorts of scenarios from occuring. Both sides, customers and riggers alike would do well to use this opportunity to revisit their current SOPS (riggers) and expectations (customers) when it comes to getting your next repack done and use this experience to have a 5 minute conversation with your rigger to ensure your both on the same page.

Last thought, as it relates to this incident, I dont know anyone involved, but knowing as many riggers as i do, who are all forethcoming with info, and assistance, I doubt this, or most any other rigger would do work without consent just to make some extra $$.
Namaste,
Tom Noonan

www.everest-skydive.com

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This has been an interesting discussion, thanks for the replies.

In my case, I decided to accept the work done and not complain, because to do so would have seriously harmed my "DZ experience" and damaged my relationship with the rigger. After he went through it with me, some of the work seems to have been necessary (as in, he wouldn't have completed the repack without it), and some was pretty much cosmetic external stuff (or loosely preventative, perhaps - to be generous).

In future I will just make sure to specify that he please contact me if the agreed work and agreed cost looks set to change in any way at all. As mentioned - people aren't all that hard to reach these days, and I, for one (as I will clarify to him) am never in so much of a rush for my rig to be airworthy again.

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Same post, new user name? Interesting...:|

So what was the agreement going in?

Both sides have a stake in having a fair agreement; if a rigger's halfway through an I&R (which typically has a fixed price assuming there are no repairs needed), he or she has invested time and effort, and there's a cost to stopping that work mid-stream to try to get hold of the owner. They want to be protected for the time they've already invested.

Owner also wants to be able to approve repairs, that also seems fair.

Which is why there should be an agreement going in. Owner could say "Call me for any repair no matter the cost" but should also understand that may lead to a higher cost and/or having to pay for the rigger's time already spent if the owner chooses to say "no" to the repairs. Owner might say "Anything up to $100 is fine, please call me for anything more expensive." Owner may say "You're the expert, do what you think needs to be done no matter what the cost."

It's all about what you agree to. If there was no agreement, well ... you find yourself where you seem to be today.



There was no agreement - it never occurred to me that he'd do things to the rig without me asking him to. I just dropped it off for a standard repack, at the usual $40 cost that was confirmed and agreed, and then it turned out that a bunch of other stuff was done, costing about 20% of the rig's whole value. Money I can't really afford and would not have spent by choice...


Why don't you tell us what the repairs were and how much it actually cost? "20% of the rig's whole value" could mean anything..

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When I rigged in Perris, a lot of repairs got billed at "$25" simply because I was not willing to waste the time trying to get the owner on the phone.
I figured that my time was better spent sewing than phoning.
Besides, I just wanted to pack the %$#@! thing, clear the floor and get started the next I&R.

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Hi Mark,

Having been down this road more times that I would like, I finally started telling them that I had to have authorization to do $XX dollars of work without contacting them. Aterwards, they always got a detailed listing of the costs.

Then it was their choice to do business with me or not.

Do you do something similar?

Just curious; as regards your thoughts on this.

JerryBaumchen



Hello Jerry -

There was a time when I had a standard work order which allowed a customer to specify any dollar limit they wanted for a repair. If work would exceed the limit, the customer acknowledged I would bill them for the time involved in getting their approval, and their work might be delayed. Most customers, but not all, checked the "use your best judgment" box.

Now I'm not so formal. I try to keep in contact with my customers, but if I'm unable to reach them, I make the best decision I can. Some of the factors I consider:

-- estimated cost of the work
-- estimated value of the component
-- jump history of the customer (work rig? competitor with practice or competition soon? occasional jumper?)
-- attitude of the customer towards his gear (no one willfully abuses his gear, but some folks are more casual than others about appearance)
-- time until the end of the season and likelihood of jumps during the off-season
-- ability of the customer to afford the repair

I figure I'm not so much in the rigging business as I am in the customer service business.

Sometimes I guess wrong. I do whatever I can to make things right. I've never had to send anything to a manufacturer to have my work done better, although I'm prepared to do that and pay for it. My standing policy is "Your Last Service is Free," and if the customer decides he'd prefer to take his business elsewhere, there is no charge for any portion of his last service.

BTW, the same standard work order I mention in the first paragraph also had an option for the customer to select the music I would listen to as I packed the reserve. The choices included techno, rap, country, metal, and pop, but everyone always chose classical.

Regards,
Mark

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Not so fast, Mark. Like many hypotheticals, yours leaves out a vital piece of info. How well does the rigger know the owner? Does the rigger know that the owner wants necessary repairs made and will pay to get the rig in shape for the week-end? If the rigger doesn't know the owner, I'd say he should ask the owner what he expects and come to some agreement, otherwise I'm with Normiss.
You don't have to outrun the bear.

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Not so fast, Mark. Like many hypotheticals, yours leaves out a vital piece of info. How well does the rigger know the owner? Does the rigger know that the owner wants necessary repairs made and will pay to get the rig in shape for the week-end? If the rigger doesn't know the owner, I'd say he should ask the owner what he expects and come to some agreement, otherwise I'm with Normiss.



Umm. . . I don't think you read my post.

Mark

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I think he did.

You still insist on removing your customer's right to make a monetary decision on their personal property.

That's wrong to me.



If you (or he) were my customer, you would always get a call before additional work.

Mark

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I think he did.

You still insist on removing your customer's right to make a monetary decision on their personal property.

That's wrong to me.



If you (or he) were my customer, you would always get a call before additional work.

Mark



Great to see you say this. However, this isn't the same position you have previously expressed.

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