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billvon

Pakistan problems

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As the US has been talking about invading Iraq, there's been a lot of anti-US sentiment developing in the Arab world. That was demonstrated very clearly today during the elections in Pakistan, the first since the warlord Musharraf took control of the government in 1999. At last count, a very anti-American (and pro-Taliban) party has won in at least one of four provinces in Pakistan. Votes are still being counted in the other provinces.

As I've said before, we're going to have to learn diplomacy at some point. It's one thing to invade Iraq, an essentially defenseless country. It's quite another to invade a country that has both ICBM's and nuclear weapons. If the people of Pakistan vote in a pro-Taliban, anti-US government, we are going to have to make some tough choices. Force a regime change, because we don't approve of democracy when the people we like are not elected? Invade them because they have nukes? With Taliban sympathizers at the helm, they are a hundred times the threat that Iraq is, especially since we've sold them half a billion dollars worth of weapons, including Harpoon anti-ship and anti-aircraft missiles.

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The very reason I do not envy our leaders. What is the right answer? Do we sit back, employ diplomacy and hope they don't strike? Or do we initiate a preemptive strike against (hopefully) known nuke sites and come off as the 600 lb gorilla of the world? Had we chosen the first option with Osama, do you think there is any level of diplomacy to which he would have responded? I don't think so, but I don't know so.

I can only hope our leaders are responsible, knowledgeable, and skilled enough for this task. I'm not sure there is a win-win situation in this for either side. This should truly be treated as a non-partisan issue. The stakes are too high for it not to be.

(This is why I majored in engineering. Pi will always be 3.14159... no mater where you are in the world. There's no getting squishy on that.)
Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

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an essentially defenseless country



Huh??? I think there are a SHITLOAD of American and British pilots that would disagree with you. Especially the one I was controlling in 96. I could pretty much here him shit his pants over the radio. It happened just about the time an SA-6 locked him up. Not search radar...guidance radar!!! Defenseless....I think not.....

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Yes essentially defenseless... Maybe not totally, but Iraq stands little chance against a well equipped and modern military.

Killing someone is a terrible way to change their mind. Unfortunately, sometimes it is necessary to defend your way of life using violence. It has been that way since the dawn of man.

As far as being the 600lb gorilla.

It is an egregious thing to act more than you are...

However, it is just as bad to act less than you are.

Blessed be the day when the world energy supply is shifted to a hydrogen base rather than oil... In 50 years we will probably be sending aid to the improverished countries of the middle east.

Dave

Don't make the dragon angry, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

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Neither Iraq nor Pakistan possesses an ICBM missile. The longest-ranging missiles they field are properly classified as being intermediate range ballistic weapons and are incapable of landing on North American territory by any trajectory. Also, the communities located near the Afghani-Pak border have been "anti-western" since the dawn of British colonialism.

Though I don't subscribe to the proferred rationales for occupying Iraq, I do believe that decapitating the regime there would, for many reasons, be a good thing to do sooner rather than later. Personal, considered and familial experiences have shown me that it is possible to engage Islamic entities from a position of power only and almost never otherwise.

Occupying Iraq will afford the West a real opportunity to constructively engage Islamic states and diminish the power of potential launching pads of mass destruction against the U.S. such as Iran and Syria.

Let's roll.

D. James Nahikian
CHICAGO

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Blessed be the day when the world energy supply is shifted to a hydrogen base rather than oil... In 50 years we will probably be sending aid to the improverished countries of the middle east.

Fuck, Yeah!! We should be going after fusion power the way we went after the space race in the sixties ,when we had the USSR breathing down our necks...Most people don't really appreciate how primitve everything was when we put a man in orbit & then put a man on the moon..... I've been to the Goddard space station & seen the replica of the capsule...Man, this would be a challenge right now and everything back then was so fuckin' primitive, yet we had the balls to do it anyway!!

Why can't we apply that same drive to the development of fusion power & free ourselves from enslavement to these Islamist extremist maniacs?? Could it be that our president & his supporters are oil men, and have a vested interest in keeping thingsasthey are? >:( We oughta be going after fusion like it was the space race.....It's certainly a helluva lot more important...Just imagine if we could tell them all to go fuck themselves...B|
Speed Racer
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Most people don't really appreciate how primitve everything was when we put a man in orbit & then put a man on the moon.....



I think someone told me we either put a man in space or on the moon and the capsule itself had the equivalent capacity/memory of a Commodore 64 inside.
Shit happens. And it usually happens because of physics.

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I think someone told me we either put a man in space or on the moon and the capsule itself had the equivalent capacity/memory of a Commodore 64 inside. ***

Actually, a Commodore 64 back in those days was a super computer. The Apollo spacecraft's computer had something like 7k of memory if that much.

Speedracer: Fusion, at least is 50 years away and probably more like 100. What you will be seeing in the next 10 years is a device called a fuel cell, come into wide spread use. A fuel cell produces electricity by chemically breaking apart hydrogen atoms. To learn more go to this page: http://www.fuelcells.org/

Automobile manufacters are racing to get a fuel cell powered vehicle to market. The first should hit the show rooms by 2004 maybe as early as 2003. Fuel cells are also being developed for consumer electronics, such has portable phones and laptops.

Yes, you will be driving around in a hydrogen powered automobile in the near future...

What what about the Hindenburg?!!!!:o

The dispel a popular MYTH, the Hindenburg tragedy would have happened even if the zepplin's flight envelopes where filled with helium (or water for that matter.) By the time the hydrogen was released and burned, the zepplin was already lost. You see, the Hindenburg was painted with a mixture that was based on aluminum oxide. Aluminum oxide is the main ingredient for the propellant in the solid rocket boosters on the space shuttle. Obviously this substance is volitile and the Hindenburg was painted with it. The covering caught fire, not the flight envelopes.

Treated with respect and care, hydrogen can be a safe, plentiful and extremely clean energy source.

Dave

A preposition is a terrible thing to end a sentence with.

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Treated with respect and care, hydrogen can be a safe, plentiful and extremely clean energy source.



Where are you planning to get the hydrogen?
Hydrogen is only as clean as the energy source that is used to make it.
---
PCSS #10

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gentlemen:

jest about this if you will. i tell you this: if the USA invades, INNOCENT AMERICANS will die, (in mass quantities i fear) here, (the middle east) and in terriost retaliation(s) how smart are we now? want to see our sport shut down yet again? think...........

Visit Here
--Richard--
"We Will Not Be Shaken By Thugs, And Terroist"

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jest about this if you will. i tell you this: if the USA invades, INNOCENT AMERICANS will die, (in mass quantities i fear) here, (the middle east) and in terriost retaliation(s) how smart are we now?



Innocent Americans have already died here. That will continue even if we don't do anything.

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want to see our sport shut down yet again? think...........



That is an interesting point of view and set of priorities.


"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

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Where are you planning to get the hydrogen?
Hydrogen is only as clean as the energy source that is used to make it.
***

Actually, that is part of the problem at this point in time. Hydrogen does require energy to obtain. Such as using electrolysis to seperate a water molecule into hydrogen and oxygen. An idea that uses current technology, is using solar farms to power the electrolysis process. The trick is to store enough hydrogen to make up for cloudy days. :)
A search on Google.com will pull up hundreds of sites concerning the subject... I just wanted to point out the likelyhood of the U.S. going to hydrogen in the future.


If the USA invades Iraq, it is a for gone conclusion that it will be bloody. The real question, will it solve anything? I don't have that answer... I just hope that our leaders do.

Did you know that Bin Laden's family partly made their fortune from selling Snapple in Saudi Arabia? Does that not make Bin Laden the ultimate hypocrite? He will sell a western drink to his fellow Arabs, however he will not tolerate the west's existance.

Bill to answer your question... The U.S. should not interfere with the properly elected regime in Pakistan. After all, in a few years it very well may be elected out. It may not be easy, but it is the right thing to do.

Dave

Remember YOU are UNIQUE!!! Just like everybody else.

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>A search on Google.com will pull up hundreds of sites concerning the
> subject... I just wanted to point out the likelyhood of the U.S. going
> to hydrogen in the future.

I see no reason that hydrogen is any better than natural gas. We can make both, and if we make both from scratch they release no net waste into the environment. (both the water and CO2 are reused.) The advantage of natural gas is that we already have sources that we don't need to make, and it's 99% domestic.

>Did you know that Bin Laden's family partly made their fortune from
> selling Snapple in Saudi Arabia? Does that not make Bin Laden the
> ultimate hypocrite? He will sell a western drink to his fellow Arabs,
> however he will not tolerate the west's existance.

No more than we do. We call terrorists the ultimate evil, yet support them whenever we think they will kill/depose/harass someone we don't like. We claim that Iraq must go, yet we buy oil from companies that buy Iraqi oil. We say "Remember 9/11!" as we buy ever larger SUV's, and we applaud people who vote against fuel-efficiency standards.

>Bill to answer your question... The U.S. should not interfere with the
> properly elected regime in Pakistan. After all, in a few years it very
> well may be elected out. It may not be easy, but it is the right thing
> to do.

I agree. I hope we apply that logic more often in the future, but I fear that with our president's new "invade when we perceive there may be a threat in the future" foreign policy we will be seeing more, rather than fewer, invasions.

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No more than we do. We call terrorists the ultimate evil, yet support them whenever we think they will kill/depose/harass someone we don't like. We claim that Iraq must go, yet we buy oil from companies that buy Iraqi oil. We say "Remember 9/11!" as we buy ever larger SUV's, and we applaud people who vote against fuel-efficiency standards. ***

This is a case of where semantics can get you into trouble. Hypocrisy, much like truth is a matter of perspective. This is one of the reasons why I cringe when folks start throwing around good and evil. (Bill this is in general and not directed at you.) I much prefer using "us" and "them." I am sure that the terrorist can point to several instances where the U.S. was heavy handed and can be perceived as acting in an "evil" manner. To them the WTC attack was an act of self defense... Again this is the truth in their perspective. Flip it around some and take a look at SUVs. Yes they consume more gas than a smaller vehicle, they are also being purchased at a prodigious rate. However, SUVs also represent the freedom of choice that we have in the U.S. None of us are forced to buy just one type of vehicle. None of us are forced to worship one religion. Nor do we even HAVE to practice a religion. It all ties in together. I personally would never own an SUV, I have no need of something that size. However, when I see them on the road, I am glad that the person driving it had the freedom to choose (just hope they chose to drive in a safe manner.) As I did when I choose to drive a 200SX. Maybe I should have bought the 200SX SE or GXE, but I decided to buy the SE-R because of its greater power and performance. BTW: It gets 5 to 10 mpg less because of the bigger engine. Am I a hypocrite for not choosing a model that gets better gas milage? No, I am a free person who exercised his right to buy a car with a better engine, better brakes and better tires so that I could use my skills as a driver more effectively to keep me safe on the road.

THAT is what we are fighting for folks. The right to choose and live our lives as we see fit, as long as we do not cause harm to another. The terrorist see that and to them it is a great "evil." To them women should not be educated, men should have long beards. No other religion is to be tolerated. You should ALWAYS have fries with your Big Mac!!!

Do you see where this is going? Is the U.S. way of living the best for everyone? Who knows, I'm not intelligent nor wise enough to answer that question. I do know that the lifestyle in the U.S. works for me and I would like to see other people of the world live in a similar manner. However, I would much rather see them chose it of their own volition, than being forced into it.

Every terrorist that has held up their fist and cried "JIHAD," probably at some time or another had a Snapple grasped in that very same hand.

What does that tell you?

Dave

A preposition is a terrible thing to end a sentence with.

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Did you know that Bin Laden's family partly made their fortune from
> selling Snapple in Saudi Arabia? Does that not make Bin Laden the
> ultimate hypocrite? He will sell a western drink to his fellow Arabs,
> however he will not tolerate the west's existance.

Bin Laden's family are by and large, not terrorists & have disowned Osama & will have nothing to do with him. The rest of the family are supposedly pretty nice people, actually, so if they're selling Snapple, who cares?
Speed Racer
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>THAT is what we are fighting for folks. The right to choose and live
> our lives as we see fit, as long as we do not cause harm to another.

I agree; many Middle Eastern peoples are fighting for exactly the same thing.

> The terrorist see that and to them it is a great "evil." To them
> women should not be educated, men should have long beards.

And we think women should have equal rights and should be allowed to show their faces. Yet we have laws against them showing their breasts. Again, no problem at all - as long as we don't try to impose our idea of what women should be on other cultures.

And I have never, ever seen any terrorist group claim their attack was brought about by educated women. They attack because the US and Israel kill them and their families, and aids those who kill them. Note that that's the same reason we attacked Afghanistan.

There is a bit of nonsense being propagated now, summed up not so glibly by our president:

""See, we love — we love freedom. That's what they didn't understand. They hate things; we love things. They act out of hatred; we don't seek revenge, we seek justice out of love." (8/29/02)

We hate Hussein because we're afraid he will use chemical weapons against the US; the Iraqis hate Bush because they are afraid he will kill them all. We're really not so different. The "Iraqis hate everything, and we love everything" is a saturday-morning-cartoon view of foreign policy at best.

>Do you see where this is going? Is the U.S. way of living the best for
> everyone? Who knows, I'm not intelligent nor wise enough to answer
> that question.

I don't think that's the issue - it's "should we push that way of living on anyone?" We don't like it when a way of life is forced on us.

>Every terrorist that has held up their fist and cried "JIHAD," probably
> at some time or another had a Snapple grasped in that very same >hand.

And many US people who claim to hate Saddam enough to desire his assasination buy gasoline made in part from Iraqi oil. And they purposely buy vehicles that use as much of it as possible. What does that tell you?

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"And they purposely buy vehicles that use as much of it as possible. What does that tell you?"

It tells me that America needs to rethink its dependency on the infernal combustion engine....

I read an interesting article at the weekend by Gore Vidal. It kinda implies that the Iraqi situation may be about oil....no surprises there then.
The US currently has to import about half of its oil requirements, by 2020, it will need to import about 2/3 of its oil....
The sooner you guys realise that you are burning your way into dependence on the likes of Saudi Arabia, and other OPEC members the better....IMHO...
If you are interested I could scan the article, as it doesn't appear online.

By the way, the UK is in the same sticky future, recent studies indicate that we need more nuclear power stations, as, believe it or not, they are actually better for the environment than our hydrocarbon based generators...wtf????
--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

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Well the US won't sign the Kyoto agreement, and they absolutely won't tax their environmentally irresponsible gas guzzlers...... So whats left?
--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

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and they absolutely won't tax their environmentally irresponsible gas guzzlers...... So whats left?



That is something I really don't understand. Here in the UK petrol is taxed so heavily that the thought of owning a 1.4l diesel is actually quite appealing. Plus the added incentive of paying less road tax (and insurance!).

But I don't really see anything changing as long as you have a quasi-Texan who is in the pockets of the oil barons in charge. They have the right to drive SUVs goddammit (and are willing to bomb a whole lot of people to defend that right).;)

Will

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