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gowlerk

When you see Airtec at the Symposium.....

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You are correct that one of the purposes of the thread was to apply pressure to the manufacturer to act responsibly and repair the defect in a timely fashion.

I disagree that Airtec is offering an acceptable solution. As far as I can see you are merely being a "complainer/whiner" about a thread you disagree with.



I am interested to know how much of a static zap it takes to make it lock up. Since you would like to have your unit updated right away, why didn't you try to make it lock up by building up a charge in the normal way and discharging it by touching the unit up against the reserve wall, or the controller, or whatever. Why didn't you do that?
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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What makes you think that it is the static electricity that would make it freeze ?

To the OP, if I find people who want to purchase your unit, I will let you know:)



My memory is that is what Airtek said. Static discharge/zapped whatever the tech term is.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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What makes you think that it is the static electricity that would make it freeze ?

To the OP, if I find people who want to purchase your unit, I will let you know:)



My memory is that is what Airtek said. Static discharge/zapped whatever the tech term is.

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They did say that, and with industry standard equipment it is easy to verify. Why they didn't perform standard electrostatic testing (ESD) in the first place is beyond me.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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They did say that, and with industry standard equipment it is easy to verify. Why they didn't perform standard electrostatic testing (ESD) in the first place is beyond me.



Who says they didn't do that? Remember the RF sleeves back in the last decade?

http://www.pia.com/piapubs/ServiceBulletins/SB_31012013_eng.pdf

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Additional Technical Details:
The reason that only units manufactured during the above
date range are affected is because the manufacturer of a
component made a change on an internal ASIC microcircuit (which
is something like a processor) to a higher level of
integration. Prior to accepting the revised component,
Airtec went through a 13-mont
h evaluation period.
This
included laboratory testing as well as field-testing of
151 CYPRES units with no events or anomalies experienced.
The revised component entered CYPRES production in February 2009


you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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They did say that, and with industry standard equipment it is easy to verify. Why they didn't perform standard electrostatic testing (ESD) in the first place is beyond me.



ESD testing is required for CE/FCC approval. Airtec even published the test protocols from their testing. The fact that you have been unable to read and understand those is (imho) beyond me. FYI, the required levels of ESD resistance required by CE/FCC approval is way lower than the levels to which Airtec is testing. If you are looking for any luck in a consumer rights case, you need to prove that the ESD susceptibility is breaking the CE/FCC approval. Good luck doing that!

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They did say that, and with industry standard equipment it is easy to verify. Why they didn't perform standard electrostatic testing (ESD) in the first place is beyond me.



ESD testing is required for CE/FCC approval. Airtec even published the test protocols from their testing. The fact that you have been unable to read and understand those is (imho) beyond me. FYI, the required levels of ESD resistance required by CE/FCC approval is way lower than the levels to which Airtec is testing. If you are looking for any luck in a consumer rights case, you need to prove that the ESD susceptibility is breaking the CE/FCC approval. Good luck doing that!



Ok, I'll bite.

1) Can anyone show me a Declaration of Conformity and CE Mark for either Vigil or Cypres?

2) Can anyone provide evidence of an FCC product ID, for either Vigil or Cypres? If so what part are they being tested to?

3) Can you point out the FCC immunity requirements that a product is required to be tested against? I'm looking for EMI/ESD immunity, rather than proof that either manufacturer has done the testing? Not looking for the EU standards as I am aware of those.

4) Out of interest are avionics products exempt from CE/FCC testing in the same way that automotive products are?
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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1) The label on my Speed Cypres has the CE stamp. I am not sure if a unit sold in the US has the corresponding FCC stamp though. The following portion is taken directly from the manual:
"14. Electromagnetic compatibility Manufacturer's Certification:
We herewith certify that the automatic parachute activation device "CYPRES" (Cybernetic Parachute Release System) is free from electromagnetic interference in accordance with order no. 1045/1984 of Deutsche Bundespost.
Deutsche Bundespost was informed of the release of this system, and has been granted the right to check that these products conform to standard.
Airtec GmbH, Mittelstrasse 69, 33181 Wuennenberg, Germany"

2) I think the above is the reference you are looking for

3) http://www.dbicorporation.com/standard.htm#product. It is difficult to tell which class of product a Cypres would fall under, however the ESD requirements for most categories are the same. The ESD requirements are the same as CE (+/-4kV for contact discharges, +/-8kV for eir discharges. ) however, the test setup might be defined differently, but you'd probably have to buy the standard document to get the details.

4) I have no idea. I dont think that the Cypres is classified as an avionics product though. However, I am pretty sure that avionics get separate treatment as they have several sensitive ports that are exempt from ESD testing. (The same as external antenna ports on a cellphone)

regards,
Stefan

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1) The label on my Speed Cypres has the CE stamp. I am not sure if a unit sold in the US has the corresponding FCC stamp though. The following portion is taken directly from the manual:
"14. Electromagnetic compatibility Manufacturer's Certification:
We herewith certify that the automatic parachute activation device "CYPRES" (Cybernetic Parachute Release System) is free from electromagnetic interference in accordance with order no. 1045/1984 of Deutsche Bundespost.
Deutsche Bundespost was informed of the release of this system, and has been granted the right to check that these products conform to standard.
Airtec GmbH, Mittelstrasse 69, 33181 Wuennenberg, Germany"

2) I think the above is the reference you are looking for

3) http://www.dbicorporation.com/standard.htm#product. It is difficult to tell which class of product a Cypres would fall under, however the ESD requirements for most categories are the same. The ESD requirements are the same as CE (+/-4kV for contact discharges, +/-8kV for eir discharges. ) however, the test setup might be defined differently, but you'd probably have to buy the standard document to get the details.

4) I have no idea. I dont think that the Cypres is classified as an avionics product though. However, I am pretty sure that avionics get separate treatment as they have several sensitive ports that are exempt from ESD testing. (The same as external antenna ports on a cellphone)

regards,
Stefan



Thanks. It is pretty common for small(er) companies to not fully comply with the entire requirements of the standards. Primarily because the standards are a convoluted maze. I couldn't find any reference to a CE mark on either AAD and it is normal practice to include the declaration of conformity in the user manual (neither manufacturer does this). It could be that the DOC is supplied separately to the manual as a loose sheet, but as I've never bought an AAD new, I can't say. The DOC must state the EU directives which the product complies with - not the harmonised standards.

That dbi corporation link doesn't actually say much. The EU has a funny system where standards and quality are mixed up. You can argue that a product susceptible to ESD/EMI is a nuisance to the user and not an 'interferer', therefore it should not be regulated, but rather left to the market to self regulate. This was the driving argument when I was involved in radio standards in the EU and significant effort was being made to remove the 'quality metrics'. The US tends towards market regulation, and I don't believe EMI or ESD testing is a regulated requirement. I've certainly never experienced a requirement in the few US projects I've been involved in.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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not directed at you, but meant as a note to all people questioning airtec's ethics and standards.

I have no idea if you (the general you that is) know, what inspired helmut cloth to develop the cypres unit and through what lenghts he went just to develop this device. how meticulous every (and I mean every!) part of the unit is tested thoroughly before, during and after assembly... I do not know if you know, that each and every unit is (basically) disassembled and rebuilt during maintenance so that you get a practically new unit every 4 years...
could you say the same about the other competitors on the market? one brand became famous for changing the manual every time a glitch/issue became known... they are still here. another brand just went out of the market after i became known that a vital/essential part of quality testing/manangement never happened. now how's that for "customer service"?????

since you asked for CE-labels and testing: you can rest assured that airtec has set and follows higher internal testing standards than CE and other norms.


This is my last contribution to a thread that (I think) should have went to the recycle-bin right after it came to surface. this is really dz.com at it's worst.
The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

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As far as I can see you are merely being a "complainer/whiner" about a thread you disagree with.



Well Ken you are entitled to your opinion even if you have nothing to substantiate it. Stating an opinion once is hardly complaining or whining. However, starting a thread to do so and repeatedly posting against those that don't share your view might constitute such a thing. Just a thought ;)

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The dbi link was the result of a quick scan to digg up the ESD levels required by FCC testing, per your request. If you want to have the complete comparison, you probably need to contact a test lab.

As far as self regulation. I know for a fact that this is not the case. Think about it, your product might be radiating signals into the licensed radio spectrum, it would potentially cause major harm to by civilian and military emergency systems. When it comes to ESD, I would agree that it is more of an internal issue, but I still dont think that anyone that has done FCC compliance testing would skip ESD.

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The dbi link was the result of a quick scan to digg up the ESD levels required by FCC testing, per your request. If you want to have the complete comparison, you probably need to contact a test lab.

As far as self regulation. I know for a fact that this is not the case. Think about it, your product might be radiating signals into the licensed radio spectrum, it would potentially cause major harm to by civilian and military emergency systems. When it comes to ESD, I would agree that it is more of an internal issue, but I still dont think that anyone that has done FCC compliance testing would skip ESD.



I thought my post was fairly clear, but just to expand. In the USA EMC (emissions) is regulated by the FCC, but the 'quality' metrics like EMI and ESD are left to discretion of the vendor.

Anyway, I'm probably pissing people off, nitpicking of details that aren't really relevant, so I'm going to drop the subject:)
Just to go on record, I think Cypres is a great product, and I think it is always extremely difficult to deal with a negative product issue.
Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

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I thought my post was fairly clear, but just to expand. In the USA EMC (emissions) is regulated by the FCC, but the 'quality' metrics like EMI and ESD are left to discretion of the vendor.

Anyway, I'm probably pissing people off, nitpicking of details that aren't really relevant, so I'm going to drop the subject:)
Just to go on record, I think Cypres is a great product, and I think it is always extremely difficult to deal with a negative product issue.



Haha, just to nitpick back then :P
EMC stands for ElectroMagnetic Compatibility, ie if the device is not disturbing devices around itself and if it is not disturbed itself. This includes all sorts of radiation, ESD, etc.

EMI stands for ElectroMagnetic Interference which is what you were looking for. Ie does the device emit things that it may not.

As these terms have been used from time to time, I just thought it to be valuable for people to know what we are talking about.

And yes, you were right, FCC only regulates EMI, ie does the device disturb other devices. All forms of disturbance on the device is subject to the manufacturers discretion. I guess this is a moot point though as the (at least my) Cypres unit has a CE mark in it which means that it has been tested for compatibility of all kinds. Ie, both whether it radiates and how it withstands outside radiation and other disturbances such as ESD.

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To the OP, if I find people who want to purchase your unit, I will let you know



A CYPRES 2 DOM 10/12 brand new and still in the box is now available on Ebay. Item# 161004827409. This should show us what the free market thinks about the SB.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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