Incident Reports in General

[DivaSkyChick 0]

I'm just curious about something, and I'm sorry if this is wordy. Also, I'm not trying to argue anything about a particular incident but rather ask a question about incident reports in general. So please do not read into this ANY SORT OF COMMENT ABOUT BUCKEYE.

Do we have a RIGHT to know the details of someone's incident resulting in death? Does anyone but direct family have the actual RIGHT to know?

I can see if I jumped at or was planning to jump at a particular DZ, I'd want toknow that an incident was not negligence on the part of the DZ. I also would like to know what happened in a particular incident, for my education, but if the police or investigative body said simply, it was personal error and no fault of the DZ, would I have the legal right to know more?

Some interesting questions have been raised in the incident reports and I get the feeling that there is sense of "information entitlement" here. I'm pretty sure at the end of the day everyone agrees that correct information is better than gossip but I also get the sense that some people would rather have dribs and drabs on the way to the the good stuff, rather than a period of silence.

Jeez that was wordy. Sorry.

Mandy

---
www.facebook.com/mandyhamptonfitch

[Guest]

I think there is a "right to know", but as with any right, there is also due diligence required to exercise responsibility as well.

The "right" comes from a critical need to understand the circumstances surrounding the mishap, so that lessons can be drawn and applied to ourselves and to the sport at large. The less intrusively this can be performed, the better.

The "responsibility" involves being sensitive to the needs of those who are experiencing grief about the loss, so as not to cause them more distress, in addition to making sure the "hard lesson" is disseminated.

This balance isn't easy to find and maintain, but it must be done.

If I die skydiving, I want people to learn from my mistakes and apply the lessons to their own darned selves, and feelings shouldn't matter.

Besides, nobody is going to miss me when I'm gone; might as well leave a decent legacy, even if it is nothing more than a really bad example.

Another aspect I would remark on is the duty of those who are reporting the mishap to be ACCURATE, and dispell rumours. The rotor strike at Rantoul resulted in a flurry of nonsensical "eyewitness accounts", mostly from people who were never there, but heard it from someone else and accepted it as gospel.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[jtval 0]

in a simple answer
No! no one has the RIGHT to know anything other then events!

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[billvon 2,396]

>Do we have a RIGHT to know the details of someone's incident
> resulting in death? Does anyone but direct family have the actual
> RIGHT to know?

No, we have no right to know. But then, we don't have a right to skydive, either - nowhere is the 'right to jump from planes' guaranteed in any sort of law. In the US at least, you have a right to do anything that's not illegal.

In any incident case, the information provided by USPA, the DZO, the S+TA, the jumpers who saw it etc is entirely voluntary. In general they provide it because knowing that a Nova collapses a lot (for example) may save other people's lives, and skydivers place a value on that that exceeds the value of keeping painful information quiet.

Sometimes the information is painful. The result of a toxicology report that shows the jumper was smoking pot, for example, may be relevant if the incident was judgement-related, but no one wants to put a friend in a bad light by saying something bad about what he did. I think most people understand the importance of that information, though.

In some cases the information is both painful and useless (i.e. "no one liked him at this DZ" "he was doing the DZO's wife") and is best kept to oneself. But I think, to a large degree, people who post information understand that.

But I do think you're right in that we should have patience in waiting for information. It is worthwhile to wait a week and get an accurate report than get an erroneous report ten minutes after the incident.

[Gravitymaster 0]

I know of no skydiver who would object to the details of their death while skydiving being revealed if it would help someone else avoid the same error. If an error was in fact the cause of their death.

With this said, does the family have the moral "right" to withold the details if that is agaist the wishes of the deceased?

[diverdriver 5]

Sorry to pick apart your statements but this is so we can all grow.

Quote

I can see if I jumped at or was planning to jump at a particular DZ, I'd want toknow that an incident was not negligence on the part of the DZ. I also would like to know what happened in a particular incident, for my education, but if the police or investigative body said simply, it was personal error and no fault of the DZ, would I have the legal right to know more?

Knowing what the person did wrong is just as important as knowing that some mechanical device broke or a reserve failed. We are part of the whole accident and our thought processes are important. To just leave it as "well they died because they made a personal mistake" is not good. It implies that we must all be better than the deceased because we know better and wouldn't make the same mistake. Are you so sure? Human factors plays a roll in every accident. Understanding human nature is critical to learning, remembering, and performing. These elements are all involved in the sport we love. When one of these aspects breaks down we must understand why.

Why does any jumper hook themself into the ground? What are the human factors that led into that? How can you recognize the path that will lead you into trouble? Will you recognize the path that will keep you safe? The details ARE important to know. You must look into the mirror and see how you yourself can make the same mistakes. This is how you will learn, grow, and honor the passing of our brother or sister.

Yes, we do have a right to know the facts.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

I know of no skydiver who would object to the details of their death while skydiving being revealed if it would help someone else avoid the same error. If an error was in fact the cause of their death.

With this said, does the family have the moral "right" to withold the details if that is agaist the wishes of the deceased?

Well, it isn't up to the family. The Federal Aviation Regulations and NTSB 830 say that all aviation accidents must be reported. The details of those reports are made public.

Chris Schindler

[homer 0]

If I were to die skydiving I would want others to learn form my mistake. If it were a good friend that had met his/her maker I would want to know what happened to them. So to answer your question YES/NO I do believe we have a right to know details of an accident as to learn what happened and learn from it. To learn is to be safer and possibly prevent it from happening again.
NO, I don't believe ALL details such as toxicology reports should be included such as those that have been posted in the past about skydivers having drugs in there system. This I believe should not be known to all of us just those that it directly effected i.e. those who run the DZ and family.

CSA #699 Muff #3804

[Gravitymaster 0]

Well, it isn't up to the family. The Federal Aviation Regulations and NTSB 830 say that all aviation accidents must be reported. The details of those reports are made public.
_________________________________________________________________

Can you give me the URL of the FAA site that publishes details of ALL skydiving fatalities?

[lazide 0]

I do not think it is a right in the legal sense, however it is an absolutely vital part of our community.

Without reports of fatalities and the EXACT circumstances surrounding them, how are we going to make corrective action to cut down the chances of it happening again? If we withhold parts of the story leading up to it, (intoxication, etc) then we make the entire report not only worthless but WORSE than worthless - a lie that can lead other people into a false sense of security.

People die in this sport - and the key to keeping the fatality rate as low as possible is not burying our heads in the sand, but full disclosure within the community so that we can help prevent these tragedies from occuring again.

If I burn in, ESPECIALLY if it was a stupid mistake, I damn well want everyone to know why. Sure it can hurt - no one wants to hear that their son got himself killed because he was doing drugs, or that their husband died because of bad judgment. But by disseminating the WHOLE truth, you might avoid having someone elses spouse, children, or parents from having to go through the same thing.

In some other sports where this kind of openness isn't as common, I see so many people repeat the mistakes that have killed numerous people in the past.

---
'Damn, I sure wish I would of kept that pretty silver handle' - cutaway ruminations

[Guest]

Well said!

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

If I were to die skydiving I would want others to learn form my mistake. If it were a good friend that had met his/her maker I would want to know what happened to them. So to answer your question YES/NO I do believe we have a right to know details of an accident as to learn what happened and learn from it. To learn is to be safer and possibly prevent it from happening again.
NO, I don't believe ALL details such as toxicology reports should be included such as those that have been posted in the past about skydivers having drugs in there system. This I believe should not be known to all of us just those that it directly effected i.e. those who run the DZ and family.

I STRONGLY disagree about your view on toxicological reports. It is VERY important to know that jumping high / drunk can effect you or if you are hung over from being high / drunk can effect you. This information just might make some other jumper think twice about jumping while substances are in their system or they are hung over. This could save their life. I see this as a very good thing. Prevention is everything.

But I would also like to comment on the whole accident investigation thing. I have been flying for 16 years. Many of my studies in school were about Safety of Flight / Accident Investigation. In skydiving, as in flying, we don't make new mistakes. We just repeat the old ones. VFR pilot flies into IFR weather conditions and crashes. Skydiver loses altitude awareness. Skydiver turns too low to the ground to recover. Why do we keep making these same mistakes? We say we want more information so we can learn from them. But folks, this is NOT a new accident. It is the same accident we have repeated over and over and over. Just the name of who it happened to has changed.

So what are we going to do about it? The same thing we need to do for every jumper. Train them well. Make them aware of their responsibility to themselves. And teach them to always be seeking knowledge. We must be self policing. What that means to me is that we stand up and say "That isn't right" before the accident. Before the fatality. That gear isn't right. There's something better now. That aircraft isn't right. You need to repair it. Your canopy skills aren't right. You need to stop it or learn how to do it better.

That's all I have to say about that now.

Chris

[DivaSkyChick 0]

You don't have to apologise for picking apart my statement - I was asking for opinions and actually, I was curious if anyone actually knew the law in this regard.

Thanks for all the feedback. It's a good use of the forum, i think.

Blues,
Mandy

---
www.facebook.com/mandyhamptonfitch

[diverdriver 5]

Quote

Well, it isn't up to the family. The Federal Aviation Regulations and NTSB 830 say that all aviation accidents must be reported. The details of those reports are made public.
_________________________________________________________________

Can you give me the URL of the FAA site that publishes details of ALL skydiving fatalities?

No URL. It's in Parachutist magazine. NTSB has traditionally not put straight skydiving fatalities in as Accidents with their reports on their website now. But it is still an aviation accident. The FAA will come out and look to see if anything that has a TSO on it malfunctioned or was out of date. After that, the "self policing" comes in and USPA disseminates the information available.

Would I like to see USPA put all incidents online? Yes, I would. So that people can go back and see what is going on. That is why I list all Jump Plane accidents on my site. It is hard to pick them out of the other reports on the NTSB site. New jumpers don't have back issues to Parachutist so they can't see what has happened in the past. I think we do a diservice to new jumpers by not passing on the information directly about prior fatalities. We indirectly tell them about it by saying "Always stay altitude aware. Pull, pull on time, pull stable." But when you can add a picture or a name or something that wakes you up to realise this was not a number, not a statistic, but a real person then you will have caused learning and possibly prevented another accident.

Chris Schindler

[christoofar 0]

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NO, I don't believe ALL details such as toxicology reports should be included such as those that have been posted in the past about skydivers having drugs in there system. This I believe should not be known to all of us just those that it directly effected i.e. those who run the DZ and family.

I disagree vehemently, particularly because an intoxicated jumper burning in is completely different than a non-intoxicated jumper, especially if that jumper is an instructor. This information is just as important as knowing the container and the canopy the deceased was jumping.

Granted, prior substance abuse is not a factor when making a jump, unless you had taken something psychotropic that has serious long-lasting effects. But when you use alchohol or take drugs not long before your jump, it will definitely contribute to the incident report.

All of us know what the effects of alchohol/drugs are on the human body and how it colors our decisions. Imagine if you read an incident report: "Jumpmaster with 15,000 jumps dies - no chute out." You would wonder to yourself why would someone with so much experience not deploy?

If the incident report includes ALL the variables that occured in the skydive, such as the jumper's rig information, he was jumping alone, he left the plane at 3,500 feet, he had no Cypres, he was high on pot... this all helps in determining what occured during the skydive. Maybe now it makes more sense why the jumper would not have had anything out right before impact.

The same goes with a jumper who dies making a high-performance landing. A combination of factors led to the incident, but clearly one factor that helped contribute to the judgement calls that ultimately led to death was recent substance abuse very recently and leading up to the jump.

Jumpers who have serious mental disorders that require medication aren't left out of the bag either. If you WEREN'T on your treatment and you were skydiving... could that have affected your decision making? Think about that!

Your brain and your senses are just another piece of gear that's used in a skydive. It is subject to "malfunction" just like your canopy and your harness, etc. It's up to the jumpers reading your incident report to figure out what was the biggest determinant that lead to your demise. Drug/alchohol use right before a jump sure does make everything you did outside the plane a bit irrelevant, doesn't it?

{p.s. the toxicology report in question showed very recent use of drugs, and it wasn't a trace amount. The jumper was jumping ill.}

____________________________________________________________
I'm RICK JAMES! Fo shizzle.

[Parrot 0]

I think its important to know some details from incidents. To learn lessons from.
I dont think we have to know details such as:- age, -name, and more private details like that.

Heh, thats funny .

[jtval 0]

as a clarification... the simple version of the complicated answer I stated above was:

no one has the RIGHT to know NAMES of the deceased. but it IS our RIGHT(as far as I know) to know of the incidents of the accident. that is also the reason for the USPA lists them each month in the parachutist.
we also have a responsibility to KNOW and Give the CORRECT information.
Correct= the assumed reason/cause of death/injury AFTER investigation.

so the grey answer is ...we have the RIGHT to know the FACTS, but acquiring the facts may take some time!

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[freeflyz 0]

Nobody has the right to anything!!!!!!

[skybytch 259]

I'd call it a "need" to know basic details about skydiving incidents, not a "right."

If a problem with equipment caused (even partially) a fatality or injury, then I feel I need to know about it so I can determine if my equipment does or does not have the same problem, and so I can fix the problem if it does. I sat on the ground for four weeks after a fatality at my home dz a few years ago because I was jumping the same equipment combination as the deceased jumper; until I knew all the details as to what happened and why it happened, I didn't jump my rig.

If a jumper made a mistake, I feel I need to know about it so I can avoid making the same mistake.

If an incident occurs because of something unsafe going on at a particular dropzone, I feel I need to know about it so I can avoid jumping at that dropzone, or at least so I can make sure that the same things aren't occuring at my home dz.

Sharing details about incidents is a way to educate each of us. Applying lessons learned from an injury or fatality to my own skydiving makes me a safer skydiver. Should I ever go in, I hope that my friends and all other jumpers will look at what happened and why and avoid doing whatever I did wrong (or whatever gear/dz/lifestyle choices may have led up to my death); that to me would be the best legacy I could leave.

[homer 0]

Quote

I STRONGLY disagree about your view on toxicological reports. It is VERY important to know that jumping high / drunk can effect you or if you are hung over from being high / drunk can effect you. This information just might make some other jumper think twice about jumping while substances are in their system or they are hung over. This could save their life. I see this as a very good thing. Prevention is everything.

Christoofar

Quote

I disagree vehemently, particularly because an intoxicated jumper burning in is completely different than a non-intoxicated jumper, especially if that jumper is an instructor. This information is just as important as knowing the container and the canopy the deceased was jumping.

May be I should have been more specific about my answer. I meant it in a way that it would harm the character of the jumper for all to know that he/she had died under the influence. After reading the posts again I can agree that it would help to detour some who have jumped before under the influence not to do it again or to keep some newbie from ever doing it. We should also look after one another the following morning to make sure that our buddies are mentally and physically able to jump. Not only will I not let a friend drive drunk or high I wont let then jump just the same.

So, I feel all but the most personal information such as name should be allowed to be read by others in the incident reports.

CSA #699 Muff #3804

[clrarch 0]

I won't jump into the debate on what we have a right to know....I'll throw in my .02 from a student's perspective (two tandem and 7 AFF jumps). When I started my AFF program, especially after my Level 1 jump, I started seeking out information about skydiving fatalities because I had a real need to know what caused the fatalities, more or less because I wanted to understand what kind of risk I was assuming learning the sport of skydiving. I bought "The Skydiver's Handbook", because I wanted to keep the information from my FJC in my head about skydiving emergencies and add to it, to study and learn about gear, wingloadings, canopies, winds, landing patterns, wow...there is so much to know, and I want to know all of it. I moderate my fear by trying to understand how fatalities happen in skydiving, and the book told me there is an annual average of 29 people fatally injured while parachuting. The book has statistical breakdowns on collisions, failure to pull, canopy malfunctions, etc. Specifics of the incidents are unavailable in this particular text. Obviously with the world wide web, seeking out this information has become easier. The trick is to determine what constitutes a reliable source. Looking for this information is how I found dropzone.com and the incidents forum. I lurk, I read, I try to understand what is reported and yes, I often have to separate between speculation and reported fact. It's always better in any situation to wait to know what has been investigated and determined. In some cases, as you know, sometimes very little can be determined and all people can do is speculate. This is where you can get into trouble and curbing that tendency is important. It's helpful as a student to be able to read what has happened---often when I read an incident report I find I have a lot of questions about gear, wingloadings, canopy control...things I didn't necessarily know about or understand and being able to read and learn and ask improves my training and my knowledge of safety. When you're only a few steps away from whuffo, knowledge is the key to keeping motivation (for me at least), otherwise the risk would seem far too great. Of course the risk is ever present, but having a better understanding of the risks involved and how people have handled or not handled them, is how we continue to educate and train ourselves. It's our responsibility and we can help each other.

[billvon 2,396]

>we have the RIGHT to know the FACTS, but acquiring the facts may
> take some time!

I think we would LIKE to know the facts. An independent DZO who has a fatality might be required to report it to the cops, but if he chooses not to release the information to any other skydivers or USPA, he is within his rights. With that in mind, we should be patient and consider the feelings of those who knew the deceased after a fatality. It is likely that the story will come out eventually; no need to rush it. And if it never comes out? Well, there are other incidents to learn from.

[Thanatos340 1]

Yes WE HAVE A RIGHT. Legally and otherwise. Any Police report regarding the death of a skydiver does become public record. The General Public has a Legal right to that information and it can be requested by any interested party. The Coroners report will also become public record and should contain a Toxicology report.

We definitely have a right to the facts and any extenuating circumstances (such as intoxication) that resulted in a fatality at a place where we chose to engage in potentially life threatening activities.

In my Opinion, a DZ should be required to disclose any and all information regarding Fatalities at their Business (especially if it involved students). Sadly, I do not think that there is a law requiring this. So we have to wait for Public Record to become available.
Students who are putting their lives in the hands of of Trained professionals and PAYING for their services have a right to know about their safety record.

[billvon 2,396]

>Yes WE HAVE A RIGHT. Legally and otherwise. Any Police report
> regarding the death of a skydiver does become public record.

(sigh)

Yes, you have a right to the police report. "A 26 year old male died when his parachute failed to open." If that's all you want, along with maybe some sensational video from RealTV, then walk onto a DZ where a fatality recently occured and insist "I GOTTA RIGHT TO KNOW." Ask the people who seem most upset and don't take no for an answer. See what you get. At least you can get the police report later.

Another alternative is to realize that most of skydiving is not based on 'our rights,' laws, or federal regulations. It's based on a lot of skydivers who care enough to help each other. You have no 'right' to interpretation of the SIM, or to free canopy coaching, or to find out what exit separation you need. Fortunately, there are plenty of skydivers willing to help you out because they care, not because you gotta right - and in fact if you get in people's faces and demand your canopy coaching you probably won't get it. If you wait, and help other people out, and then ask for that coaching - you might just get it.

Same here. If you want your rights, demand them. If you want more than that - information on fatalities you can learn from, details that might save your life someday - ask for them, and hope other skydivers are willing to help, as they have been in the past.

[Michele 1]

Irrespective of is there a right or not, I do feel there is a sort of moral obligation, which comes from an honest desire to learn. But that does not extend to rumor spreading and speculation. It is human nature to want closure - to understand why things happen, why them and not me, how could it be me, how can I make sure it doesn't happen to me. We also think like that for our friends to a degree. If Joe is using a rig that is unsafe, for example, we may think it is in his best interest to be informed of that.

I believe that desire stems from a base understanding that we can easily die in this sport, far more so than, say, watching the Lakers on the living room sofa. We don't want to die - or we wouldn't use parachutes, right? So we look for answers, and explanations, and get really concerned when they are not forthcoming.

When there is preliminary data, which is generally discovered at the time of the accident, and that is disseminated appropriately, we are able to decide again if we can handle the risk. We make changes in our safety routine, remind ourselves again to do this or make sure of that, and then we jump happily that weekend. We understand it mechanically, and comprehend it at the top of our brain, and perhaps fool ourselves into thinking "well, it can't happen to me". And maybe, just maybe, what you learn from that incident report is enough to jog you into changing that low swoop habit at jump 43, or practicing emergency procedures, or seeing a series of canopies collapse makes you buy a different main. It is valuable additional information that we use, which may make us safer skydivers.

What we fail to appreciate fully - and I mean this with all sincerity - is shit happens, and sometimes the only answer we'll ever get is shit happened. We all understand this at some level, but it doesn't get "real" - in your face real - until something truly shitty happens. And then we sit back, and think, "well, there must be something. Someone must have seen/known/thought/whatever, for this accident to have happened." And the truth is that shit happened, and there wasn't anything but shit happening.

I think that everyone wants to know - really, honestly know - how/why something happened. If that information comes, we can use it. And we should use it.

But that information has to be real, not speculative. Data, not hearsay. Fact, not gossip. I don't mean to say we shouldn't talk about it, but we need to see what really happened before we start thinking this, that or the other thing. People speculate in these situations, I think, not because they are malicious, or ill-intending, but because they're lacking real data, and start to think how it "may" have happened.

We, as jumpers, can get really arrogant about the whuffo media, but sometimes, that's all that's available. We have to realize and remember that we were all whuffo's once; we all didn't "get" it sometime before we started jumping. We can't discount whuffo media just because it is poorly written or because it was sensationalized. Sometimes, that's all the data we get until later - whenever "later" is.

We also have to remember that as this site grows, we will be knowing more and more people who make mistakes, or who have shit happen. Real people die. They leave behind loved ones, children, family, friends. The survivors need to be consoled, too. They need to be heard and understood, respected for their loss. We lost someone, true, and may have to re-evaluate our actions. But they have lost someone to something they don't always understand. If we don't deal well with "shit happens", we cannot help those who have never tasted the sky, and who have no real concept of shit happening...

This is getting wordy, and I am not sure I am articulating at all well what I am seeing and thinking. And I'd also like to mention that this has been a really hard few weeks for this community as a whole, and emotions are raw in many many instances.

The incident information is vital. It is not always immediately available, or if immediately available, it is not always accurate.

Just my opinion, which I am sure has pissed some of you off....

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~