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Cheapest AAD that doesn't make you LESS safe?

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Fucking POINT THREE: "I don't want an AAD at all and my reason for getting one would simply be that DZ's require them, to tick that box. My decision between AADs is almost entirely financial, therefore."


A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE YEARS OF EXPERIENCE KNOW BETTER THAN YOU! BUY THE FUCKING AAD OR DON'T JUMP,...

YOUR ATTITUDE SUCKS!!!



Your bad mood is showing today. I just gotta disagree with this. Skydiving is an adult sport and people are entitled to make up there own minds about this. And FWIW price does matter. At least to me it does. I've never owned an AAD myself, I only use them for tandem. The only reason I don't own one is the price.

Ken
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Your bad mood is showing today. I just gotta disagree with this. Skydiving is an adult sport and people are entitled to make up there own minds about this. And FWIW price does matter. At least to me it does. I've never owned an AAD myself, I only use them for tandem. The only reason I don't own one is the price.

Ken



His adult entitlement to make his own decisions ends with the DZO's entitlement to make the rules.

If he doesn't like the rules he should vote with his feet, instead of trying to minimize the impact to his check book.

I could be mistaken but I think he suggested upstream in the thread that he isn't going to turn it on anyway.

The adult way to deal with this issue is to find a DZ that doesn't require it.
"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

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I could be mistaken but I think he suggested upstream in the thread that he isn't going to turn it on anyway.



You are indeed mistaken.

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The adult way to deal with this issue is to find a DZ that doesn't require it.



That would be one possible solution.

People sure do get emotional around the whole subject of AADs. They have and will continue to save lives. That said, too many people put too much trust and faith in these devices and then feel anyone without one is somehow unsafe. As the label says, it's only a backup.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE YEARS OF EXPERIENCE KNOW BETTER THAN YOU! BUY THE FUCKING AAD OR DON'T JUMP,...

YOUR ATTITUDE SUCKS!!!



My oh my!

What about RSL's?
Large 3-rings or small 3-rings?
Skyhooks?
B-12's or Step-in's?
Solid harness or articulated?
D-ring or fabric loop?
Flat pack or Pro pack?
Dacron or Spectra?

Gosh, so many choices. I need someone to mandate everything for me so I won't have to think about customizing my gear for my particular needs. Please help me out.
- Fud

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:(

I'm in a real shitty mood today,

POINT ONE: Your original question is fucked up and stupid, please don't try to manipulate me or anyone else I know by setting the stage and carefully "framing" your questions to suit your own agenda.

POINT TWO: This subject has been beat to death elswhere on this forum, please do a search before,yet again, you waste my time and others, (and yes I am aware the rest of you are fully capeable of defendiny yourselves.)

Fucking POINT THREE: "I don't want an AAD at all and my reason for getting one would simply be that DZ's require them, to tick that box. My decision between AADs is almost entirely financial, therefore."


A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE YEARS OF EXPERIENCE KNOW BETTER THAN YOU! BUY THE FUCKING AAD OR DON'T JUMP,...

YOUR ATTITUDE SUCKS!!!



Who pissed in your corn flakes!

Your attitude isint much better.

We are here to learn he asked a question.

You dont like it then dont read the thread, and if its such a waste of your time DONT REPLY!!!

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Assuming your container manufacturer has not banned them, I'm voting Argus. You can get them cheap and if you are only going to turn it on for gear checks and (maybe) turn it off, the battery will last forever. There are a couple of DZs that won't allow them. Skydive AZ is one of them.

OR, get your rigger's ticket and a Cypres 1. Just don't ever loan out your gear. Seriously, if you do questionable stuff with your own gear, that's one thing. If you involve anyone else, that is MUCH more of a problem.






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Imagine if someone was happy jumping without an AAD and, given the choice, wouldn't purchase one. Try not to worry about why they might make that decision, just "accept" it for the purposes of this thread.

They decide to get an AAD, though, because the majority of DZ's require one - either officially or unofficially. What would be the cheapest way to tick the "has an AAD" box that doesn't actually make him less safe? I know some people refuse to use certain models of AAD because they supposedly give false positives, for example. Of course, for this person false negatives wouldn't be a concern because the alternative is no AAD at all.

Any suggestions? Not including things that require lying/deception such as a fake/empty AAD, haha.

Thanks,

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OR, get your rigger's ticket and a Cypres 1. Just don't ever loan out your gear. Seriously, if you do questionable stuff with your own gear, that's one thing. If you involve anyone else, that is MUCH more of a problem.

Well (in the US) you do involve the Pilot when jumping....
scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

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A LOT OF OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAVE YEARS OF EXPERIENCE KNOW BETTER THAN YOU! BUY THE FUCKING AAD OR DON'T JUMP,...



Sure hope you meant 'don't jump at that dz" and not "don't jump, period." AFAIK, at most dz's in the US, we do still have the freedom to choose whether we want an AAD on our rig or not.

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Point taken. You are absolutely right.

Both the jumper/rigger and the pilot will be in deep kimchee if the feds ever figure out that you have an out of date Cypres in your rig. How they would figure that out is a different story and the rigger will probably be in deeper kimchee but if he did go get his rigger's ticket and then put a (possibly) out of date Cypres in there he would be endangering the pilot's ratings.

"No pilot in command of an aircraft....."



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OR, get your rigger's ticket and a Cypres 1. Just don't ever loan out your gear. Seriously, if you do questionable stuff with your own gear, that's one thing. If you involve anyone else, that is MUCH more of a problem.

Well (in the US) you do involve the Pilot when jumping....

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Here if you have an AAD in your right, it is required to be airworthy (ie., not timed out). Places that require one all additionally require it to be active.

Can we give the clever 'just don't turn it on' posts a rest?
--
"I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan

"You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at?

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I'll second that one. Until we got rid of the last FXC's at my DC there was a constant stream of them going back and forth for their maintenance.

As others have said, any AAD will do. If you think with statistics not emotions the chance of an AAD failing or misfiring is so small that any one will improve your safety.

-Michael

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While we're on this subject, and given that practically any loop-cutting AAD could lock up instead of cutting cleanly, why do some H/C manufacturers put the cutter on top of flaps rather than the base of the container?



:)
I'm only quessing but the loose end being hot may fuze to something nearby??

Perhaps a phone call to the manufacturers to answer this one!

Thanks man...
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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Can it be that certain riggers will only work with certain AAD's? Maybe I should ask my rigger what the options are as far as he's concerned. If I bought new I'd get a Mars M2 (£750 for 15 years), I wonder if he'd be comfortable installing it.

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Hi Quag,

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why do some H/C manufacturers put the cutter on top of flaps rather than the base of the container?



Every thing I write in this reply is only my own thoughts; based upon various pieces of information that I have come across over the years. Some of it in writing and some merely from conversations.

If you go back to the PIA Symposium in Orlando in 1991 when Helmut Cloth introduced the CYPRES you will learn that he wanted it above the reserve pilot chute. At that time, AirTec req'd that any h/c mfr send a rig to them for testing and determination of cutter location.

Over the years, numerous mfrs have located the cutter(s) in other locations than on top of the reserve pilot chute. I have here right now a friends Infinity ( DOM 2006 ) in which the cutter is directly above the reserve free bag. I do believe that the current location for the cutter in a new Infinity is directly above the reserve pilot chute.

A couple of years ago, André Lemaire ( who posts here as ERDNA, I 'think' ) posted a write-up and some photos of his testing of his Vector III by cutting the loop below the reserve pack tray, using a hook-knife. He cut it just underneath the floor plate. His write-up & photos showed that his reserve pilot chute deployed completely out of the container, just as it would if he had merely pulled the reserve ripcord.

The PIA has developed a Technical Standard, PIA Technical Standard TS-112 v1.0, Harness/Container – AAD Installation Test Protocol, for mfrs to make some determinations on performance of the cut loop.

This document is available on the PIA website under Public Documents.

I, personally, have a serious disagreement where the mfr of a non-certificated device can tell the mfr of a certiicated product where they must put/locate the non-certificated device. Reminds of the cart leading the horse.

About 7-8 yrs ago I was in DeLand and having lunch with Mike Truffer and he was of the same opinion as me, as per the above paragraph. I will only say that he was somewhat more emotional on the subject than my writing here appears.

I am of the opinion that only the h/c mfr can determine the proper location of the cutter; no one else.

Thoughts?????

JerryBaumchen

PS) Kelly Farrington of VSE made his own mechanical cutter ( and he gave it to me a few years ago ) for doing some testing. Attached are three photos of his device. It is crude but it works. I am currently working with someone to, hopefully, come up with a better mechanical cutter that could be used for this type of testing. Time will tell.

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I think the point Quag has raised,...

"How can a DZ require you to equip a Certificated Reserve with a Non-Certificated device that might fowl that device?" Mr. John Sherman's Quote, as well,...

is what has been raised, thanks once again to the kid who is making backyard canopies and ground launching from his bumper....

WHY isn't the cutter assembly located on the pack tray so that in case it "fowl" ('s) the reserve pin still functions???

I may not have enough time to pull the reserve, and this may be a moot discussion, but I certianly don't like thinking that my aad could lock up my reserve, even if it turns out the physics are not in my favor! (considering an activation alt of 600 feet, I can't react that fast...)

How about instead of a cutter we have an "cypres" release instead of the "cypres" washer???

C
But what do I know, "I only have one tandem jump."

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Jerry,
Sorry for the late reply but at least irt will be fresh on everyone's memory for the next few days at the symposium.
I will be coming down today BTW.

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Who says that it is required?



The FAA actually.
If the item in question is to be "approved" then it needs to be listed in the specs/manual.

This would not be any different than say hardware that is used in a H/C.
I was told this exact statement as a result of my letter of Interpretation from legal.


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No ACO that I know of offers any type of guidelines as to what must be in the 'specifications' that are to be submitted.



Exactly!
..and not one manufacturer that I can find has ever committed to including it in the documentation on their own accord.

The other side of the coin is the fact that anything changed or added to the system outside of the manufacturer needs to be done as an approved alteration.

This includes changes to the original configuration, method of operation, or anything that effects the overall performance of the approved device.

In other words, an approved alteration could/should be completed to be truly legal as per the regulations.

With that said, I have never seen either of the above.


See ya in a few hours,
MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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