phoenixlpr 0 #26 June 11, 2007 Quote Squeak and phoenix, you guys really need to stop hating on the bowlers. I won the U10 Novice division in my first bowling comp and had an average of 155. This in ten-pin, and not lawn bowls. just to clarify. ???? AFAIK I had no statement about bowling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #27 June 11, 2007 QuoteFor all the people who said a wind tunnel is not safe skydiving. I now must agree. Even though it is billed as indoor skydiving and caters to kids and other whuffos, you guys and girls are absolutly right. It is not safe. Genuises, whiz kids, all those types of adjectives come to mind. Thanks for keeping me in check. I really don't know what I was thinking when I made that comment and put a wink symbol behind it. Like tandem jumps, the wind tunnel is oversold as the 'safe' version of skydiving. It's not. It merely has lower risk. I have friends that have children just getting old enough to go to a tunnel. but I'm reluctant to suggest it...unless the tunnel instructor never lets go, there's the chance for the kid to spin out and smash into the wall or the doorway. Most of my parenting friends tend towards the risk adverse side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #28 June 11, 2007 QuoteNow, I am sure there is more to this. I am more interested in opinions on the degree of being safe. Skydivers each decide on what they consider to be acceptable risk/reward trade-offs where risk is often underestimated by less experienced skydivers who don't know what they're getting into and ignored by more experienced skydivers who've gotten complacent. Quote I mean say if a person decided never to do any swooping, never to jump when wind is more then 14mph. Never to jump when there is turbulence more then certain degree. Stick to the same canopy size. Not involve in risky disciplines in freefall. Is this person any safer then most of the skydivers who do all the things mentioned above? Definately. Quote Don't you think sky diving will become boring to such a person and that will actually make him unsafe? Either they'll be content (I've met a few people who jump big accuracy canopies and do small RW jumps with people they know) or find some way to make things more exciting but less safe (I was wrong when I said I'd never hook turn or BASE jump) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sparkie 0 #29 June 12, 2007 QuoteI have wondered about this all the time. Is there even such a thing like "Safe Skydiving" I mean we are jumping out of the plane. This can never be safe. I think that people that over analize skydiving and it's safety like you are, are looking for a reason to justify quitting it. I do not mean to offend you but you might want to re think if you want to continue skydiving. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
longtall 0 #30 June 12, 2007 Nothing is safe with Murphy lurking.................J........" 90 right, five miles then cut."---Pukin Buzzards Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GreenLight 5 #31 June 12, 2007 QuoteSafe skydiving is the wind tunnel Not True... Plenty of people have been seriously injured in wind tunnels and it won't be long before someone is killed in one... Especially when the rotors give out and fall on the unsuspecting flyers. This will happen because someone at the top has bribed the maintenance guy to sign off stuff that was not properly attended to... I know this happens as a fact... I wouldn't get into one of those things if you paid me...Green Light "Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there." "Your statement answered your question." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jigneshsoni 0 #32 June 12, 2007 QuoteQuoteI have wondered about this all the time. Is there even such a thing like "Safe Skydiving" I mean we are jumping out of the plane. This can never be safe. I think that people that over analize skydiving and it's safety like you are, are looking for a reason to justify quitting it. I do not mean to offend you but you might want to re think if you want to continue skydiving. I believe your intent was not to offend me. But those were pretty harsh statments. No offence taken since everybody can have their own opinin. I totally dis-agree with yours. I do not think people who analyze skydiving and it's safely are looking for a reason to quit. They are infact looking for everything that can go wrong and master all aspects of it to become a good skydiver. I do not think there is anythhing like "over analyze" It is just a perspective of 1 person for the other persons analyzing behaviour. On offence taken, but I have indeed re-thought if I want to continue sky diving many times, and everytime I come to the conclusion that "YES I WANT TO CONTINUE SKYDIVING BECUASE I LOVE THIS VERY MUCH. This does not mean I am not going to analyze all aspects of skydiving. To me analzing only makes me safer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #33 June 12, 2007 QuoteQuoteI have wondered about this all the time. Is there even such a thing like "Safe Skydiving" I mean we are jumping out of the plane. This can never be safe. I think that people that over analize skydiving and it's safety like you are, are looking for a reason to justify quitting it. I do not mean to offend you but you might want to re think if you want to continue skydiving. People who want a reason to quit just stop jumping. You can't force people to pack, manifest, get in the plane, and jump out. Some people are philosophers at heart. Some people like to analyze every detail of their hobby (esp when new to it). Some people just think what the fuck and go blindly in. In this subject, people have debated the notion of "safety" in many sports for a long long time. See all the threads on the safety of skydiving versus driving? All most of those people looking for a reason to justify quitting one of the two activities? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
squarecanopy 0 #34 June 13, 2007 Quote Safe skydiving is the wind tunnel I heard about Olaf Zipser (Zipster?) breaking both arms in the wind tunnel at Orlando. Even the wind tunnel will bite you if you don't manage the risk. Ain't no free lunch... Just burning a hole in the sky..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sparkie 0 #35 June 13, 2007 Quote I do not think people who analyze skydiving and it's safely are looking for a reason to quit. They are infact looking for everything that can go wrong and master all aspects of it to become a good skydiver. I do not think there is anythhing like "over analyze" It is just a perspective of 1 person for the other persons analyzing behaviour. By over analizing I was thinking of an AFF student @ the DZ i jump that went so far as to go asking "what if both parachutes fail?" several times. He quit before finishing his AFF. Nothing wrong with analizing but the above I classify as over analizing, and he was indeed looking for a reason to quit. I had that incident in mind, and may have put you into a "box" a bit hasty. Quote On offence taken, but I have indeed re-thought if I want to continue sky diving many times, and everytime I come to the conclusion that "YES I WANT TO CONTINUE SKYDIVING BECUASE I LOVE THIS VERY MUCH. This does not mean I am not going to analyze all aspects of skydiving. To me analzing only makes me safer. Well, welcome to the rest of us addict then. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DougH 270 #36 June 13, 2007 Quote By over analyzing I was thinking of an AFF student @ the DZ i jump that went so far as to go asking "what if both parachutes fail?" several times. He quit before finishing his AFF. Nothing wrong with analyzing but the above I classify as over analyzing, and he was indeed looking for a reason to quit. It isn't over analyzing. Both parachutes can fail and you will die. I hope if I have a double mal I at least die quickly. I hope none of my friends die while I am in the sport, but if I stay in it long enough I know that some of them will. The student in your story made his own risk versus reward analysis and made the right choice for him. Maybe I am inferring too much, but it sounds like you are describing his "looking for a reason to quit" in a negative manner. Personally the rewards I get from skydiving out weigh the chances that I will bounce in some horrible way; it is a personal analysis and it only applies to me."The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall" =P Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trae 1 #37 July 11, 2007 "is there even such a thing as safe skydiving " ? Nope. one of the safest forms of skydiving involves ALL participants actively involved in conscious risk minimisation. The weakest link in this activity is the most dangerous one. there are so many things which make skydiving safer. Unfortunately there are more ways that make it dangerous with new ones constantly emerging. The challenge (if you like that safety feeling) is to recognise, isolate and deal with the things making it dangerous = risk minimisation. having fun with your safety mission can be a bit of a challenge given some amazingly negative attitudes towards staying alive and in one peice. enjoy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UDSkyJunkie 0 #38 July 12, 2007 QuoteIs there even such a thing like "Safe Skydiving" obviously not, but you seem to have figured that out. QuoteDo sky divers draw a line on what they will do and what they will not do in skydiving that will keep them safe? Things I will not do: - exit immediately before certain individuals/groups whom I know to ignore exit separation rules. - "casual" big-ways... after a couple of ugly 50-60 ways, I plan to limit my casual dives to less than 20 people. - swoop when conditions don't permit it (traffic, weather, landing area...) - BFR ("big fucking round") and similar zoo-fests with 10+ people who don't know what they are doing - tracking dives (at least not with people of the skill level at my DZ) - get my coach/AFF ratings before I really have the flying skills (just got coach rating) - CReW with microline or with anybody who has no prior experience (so far this has resulted in zero crew) - Go balls out on landings during the first several jump of the season The list goes on... by the way, I observe several of the above done by other people nearly every weekend. QuoteI mean say if a person decided never to do any swooping, never to jump when wind is more then 14mph. Never to jump when there is turbulence more then certain degree. Stick to the same canopy size. Not involve in risky disciplines in freefall. Is this person any safer then most of the skydivers who do all the things mentioned above? Don't you think sky diving will become boring to such a person and that will actually make him unsafe? They are possibly safer. They are also at risk to become complacent, and therefore may become less safe. The key is to keep doing things that are new and challenging, but do them one at a time, and push forward slowly. I know people with 10,000 jumps who are completely complacent and unsafe (no joke!) and others with similar numbers who avoid big risks but I trust completely."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #39 July 12, 2007 I always wear a condom when I skydive, just to be safe... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWPoul 1 #40 July 12, 2007 Quote Things I will not do: ... - tracking dives (at least not with people of the skill level at my DZ) ... What's wrong with Tracking Dive?Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UDSkyJunkie 0 #41 July 12, 2007 QuoteWhat's wrong with Tracking Dive? nothing when executed correctly. however, on all tracking dives I have been on, noone follows the "leader", noone keeps level, and within seconds it turns into chaos, with 10 people tracking blindly in all directions. After two or three experiences of seeing people zipping all over the sky like bumper cars, I decided not to do them anymore."Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 14 #42 July 13, 2007 How about a tracking race around pylons , , , in a figure-8 course? I was invited on one, but sniveled off when I found out it would be a figure-8. I don't need a head on collision, thank you very much. The post dive I heard was "ugly". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWPoul 1 #43 July 13, 2007 Quote however, on all tracking dives I have been on, noone follows the "leader", noone keeps level, and within seconds it turns into chaos, with 10 people tracking blindly in all directions. After two or three experiences of seeing people zipping all over the sky like bumper cars, I decided not to do them anymore. That's why i prefer be the rabbit:) You either can stretch the flock or at least run away from these "10 people tracking blindly in all directions" :) All in All, IMHO the tracking dive is less dangerous (due to natural horisontal separation and it's far less likely than somebody get low and deploy under ya, or strike ya and other in HD) than regular formations with same people taken. And it's has a ton of positive, since even if you chase the flock being ~100 ft from it - You are still in the race with flock!Why drink and drive, if you can smoke and fly? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Remster 24 #44 July 13, 2007 QuoteAll in All, IMHO the tracking dive is less dangerous (due to natural horisontal separation and it's far less likely than somebody get low and deploy under ya, or strike ya and other in HD) I think you are fooling yourself. On a good tracking dive, pleople will be close. Heck, part of the fun is touching the rabbit. Also, your overall speed is higher on a tracking diver (v + h speed vectors), and any time speeds are higher, reaction times are shorter and risk is higher.Remster Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
