Landing large American Flags

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

Two things.

When I arrived home today I found my July 07 issue of Skydiving in my mailbox.

First, while reading this issue, on page 24 I found the article "Secuity Company Self-Promotes with Demo Jumps." Seems this article shows the demo team in question doing several things wrong that Airt and Zing have pointed out that show disrespect for the U.S. Flag.



Second, unfortunately, turn the page of this same issue of Skydiving and one finds another article that shows how things can really go wrong when one jumps a large flag into a demo. The article "Demonstration Jump Turns Ugly for Ohio Skydiver" shows the member of a demo team breaking his back when the large flag he is jumping with evidently caught and snagged in a tree as the jumper approached the landing area.

[airtwardo 6]

Second, unfortunately, turn the page of this same issue of Skydiving and one finds another article that shows how things can really go wrong when one jumps a large flag into a demo. The article "Demonstration Jump Turns Ugly for Ohio Skydiver" shows the member of a demo team breaking his back when the large flag he is jumping with evidently caught and snagged in a tree as the jumper approached the landing area.

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Part of my presentation at the PIA convention addressed that issue...it's a matter of diminishing returns regarding the larger you go with a flag.

More risk, less places you can take it into...etc.

I'd go into more detail but I'm off to Sacramento...to jump a large flag into a demo this weekend!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[GLIDEANGLE 1]

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While it looks spectactular to display an American flag under canopy, it is, by tradition and not law, that the flag of the United States of America should never be allowed to touch the ground.

The prohibition against the US flag touching the ground IS LAW:

The Flag Code Title 4, United States Code, Chapter 1
§ 8. Respect for flag
No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
(b) The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise.

The entire US Flag Code can be found here: http://www.legion.org/documents/pdf/flagcode.pdf

The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

[squarecanopy 0]

Great post Zing. Well said. I have witnessed the same thing as a boy, at airshows where an airshow pilot buddy of my dad would release an American flag from his Citabria as part of his act, and it would flow down to the ground fully unfurled (small delta wing on the top leading edge, sandbag on the bottom). It was a small flag by today's standards, but still big enough to impress the crowds back then. I saw the act three times over a five year period, and not once did the ground crew ever completely catch the flag and keep it totally off the ground. He told my dad later that the reason he took that out of his act was the criticism he received from observers about his disrespect for our flag, even though the ground crew apparently caught the flag an average of 80% of the time.

Just burning a hole in the sky.....

[billeisele 122]

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While it looks spectactular to display an American flag under canopy, it is, by tradition and not law, that the flag of the United States of America should never be allowed to touch the ground.

The prohibition against the US flag touching the ground IS LAW:

not sure that is a Law, but a regulation (where is lawyer familiar with CFR's when ya need one)

break the law get arrested, break a regulation get shunned

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

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[kallend 1,623]

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The prohibition against the US flag touching the ground IS LAW:

What is the penalty for dropping the flag on the ground, then?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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[BillyVance 34]

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The prohibition against the US flag touching the ground IS LAW:

True, but exceptions are made for the extra large flags where it's just nearly impossible for ground crew to catch a huge flag and keep it from touching the ground while the jumper is landing. Catch the flag, you risk injury to the jumper if somebody grabs the flag and stops the jumper's progress.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

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[Zing 2]

Glideangle, the flag code is just that, a code of conduct relating to the proper use and display of the US flag, but it does not have the force of law behind it ... hence the ongoing attempts to pass legislation to criminalize activities like burning the flag.
Its about respect ... act in a disrepective manner toward the flag and you risk criticism, but, as far as current regulation stands, you can't be prosecuted for dropping it on the ground, burning it, or improperly displaying it ... though you might suffer the wrath of someone who takes offense to the disrepect shown, and then that may become an issue that law enforcement will get involved in.

Billy, referring to the flag code, only the commanding officer of the armed forces, the president of the USA can grant that exception you speak of, other than that, when the flag is dropped on the ground, its going to piss some folks off and leave a poor impression in the minds of others.

There are other red white and blue banners that will be just as impressive as Old Glory on a demo jump, but aren't flags of the United States of America.
A demo team is a very public representative for all skydivers. In my humble opinion, its bad pr to drop a US flag on the ground in front of a crowd, and there are other alternatives. The idea of an "exception" because it is dangerous or inconvenient just doesn't hold water, and skydivers aren't going to change the minds of the folks who take this issue seriously.
Especially when it becomes a matter of which demo team is currently jumping the biggest flag. As noted in one of the posts above this, there have already been incidents when the huge banners proved to be more than the demo team could safely or properly handle.

Zing Lurks

[hoyt 0]

Yes, I'll be at SkyFest. I'll see you there.

Every day is a great day, some are just a little better.

[Erroll 49]

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No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America;

But if you are annoyed at your government you can burn it, stomp on it or wash your car with it?


To John:- I don't know about demos and the like, but certainly in the South African military our national flag is not allowed to touch the ground. I have taken part in many parades (such as Remembrance Day) and often lowered the flag. I have ended up with extras at least once for letting the flag touch the ground.

[PhreeZone 15]

The new "Closing on" the old "Photo Finish" in Parachutist this month shows a security company flying large American and British flags side by side. They have theit logos on their canopy and have a third jumper with the company flag under the pair. This team is not the only one to Logo their canopy and the fly the American flag into demos. It only takes a few minutes online to find at least 3 demo teams flying logo'd canopies and trailing the flag.

Here is one for you, what if someone has the flag design sewn onto their canopy, is their canopy allowed to touch the ground?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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The new "Closing on" the old "Photo Finish" in Parachutist this month shows a security company flying large American and British flags side by side. They have theit logos on their canopy and have a third jumper with the company flag under the pair. This team is not the only one to Logo their canopy and the fly the American flag into demos. It only takes a few minutes online to find at least 3 demo teams flying logo'd canopies and trailing the flag.

Good post.

If its the one I'm thinking of, I'm famliar with the photo you're speaking of.

Personally, I take exception to this demo team flying the U.S. flag with their logo'ed canopies and also towing the U.S. flag with a logo'ed banner; "self promoting" thier company in conjunction with the dispaly of the U.S. flag.

Furthermore, Public Law 94-344, known as the Federal Flag Code states, in part, "...The U.S. flag, when carried in a procession with another or other flags, should be either on the marching right (the flag’s own right) ..."

In the picture you mention PhreeZone, if one considers the 4-way Diamond Crew Stack as a "procession" this same demo team is incorrectly displaying the U.S. flag to the left of the Union Jack.

I have been contemplating writting a letter to both those publications that have printed stores and picutes relating to this demo team as well as to this demo team itself voicing my displeasure regarding their, 1) Self promotion of their company / demo team by use of their logo in conjuction with the display of the U.S. flag... as well as... 2) Their incorrect display of the U.S. flag when displayed with other flags. Given the experience they claim their parachute demo team has (as per their website), I'd have thought they would have known better.

[wzettler 0]

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The Flag Code Title 4, United States Code, Chapter 1
§ 8. Respect for flag
No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
(b) The flag should never touch anything beneath it, such as the ground, the floor, water, or merchandise.

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While it looks spectactular to display an American flag under canopy, it is, by tradition and not law, that the flag of the United States of America should never be allowed to touch the ground.

The prohibition against the US flag touching the ground IS LAW:

not sure that is a Law, but a regulation (where is lawyer familiar with CFR's when ya need one)

break the law get arrested, break a regulation get shunned

I'm familiar with the CFR (though not a lawyer).

The reg with the flag stated above (if indeed it is a regulation) is non-mandatory (voluntary). The key word that makes it voluntary is "should". If it was a mandatory regulation the word used would be "shall" or "must." So the way its written means its kind of a recommendation for best/suggested practices and is indeed voluntary.

I think when Jesus said "love your enemy" he probably meant don't kill them.

[kallend 1,623]

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The new "Closing on" the old "Photo Finish" in Parachutist this month shows a security company flying large American and British flags side by side. They have theit logos on their canopy and have a third jumper with the company flag under the pair. This team is not the only one to Logo their canopy and the fly the American flag into demos. It only takes a few minutes online to find at least 3 demo teams flying logo'd canopies and trailing the flag.

Here is one for you, what if someone has the flag design sewn onto their canopy, is their canopy allowed to touch the ground?

All of my canopies have a PD logo on the stabilizer. In fact, I can hardly recall seeing ANY canopy that did not have the manufacturer's logo on it somewhere, usually on a stabilizer.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[BoilingMidnight 0]

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I've always wondered about the logic of not wanting a flag to touch the good earth of the nation it represents. I suppose logic doesn't enter into it. Do other nations have similar hangups about their flags?

Interesting how the same individuals who label patriotic traditions as “hangups” will call terrorists “freedom fighters” and say it’s politically correct.

That’s called rationalization, and no supposing is needed to see logic doesn't enter into that.

"Iþ ik qiþa izwis, ni andstandan allis þamma unseljin."

[kallend 1,623]

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Do other nations have similar hangups about their flags? I know the UK doesn't.

Pardon me, Kallend.

With respect to not wanting the U.S. flag touching the ground, its not a "hangup".

If you don't understand that and/or don't have a problem with the Union Jack drug on the dirt, I'm okay with either of those, but don't refer the U.S. flag being dropped on the ground as a "hangup".

Thanks.





Sorry all for the Offtopic-ness... Now back On Topic.

I think it's a "hangup" if someone, anyone, thinks it more important to keep a flag off the good earth of the country it represents than to prevent injury to the flag bearer.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[diablopilot 2]

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The new "Closing on" the old "Photo Finish" in Parachutist this month shows a security company flying large American and British flags side by side. They have theit logos on their canopy and have a third jumper with the company flag under the pair. This team is not the only one to Logo their canopy and the fly the American flag into demos. It only takes a few minutes online to find at least 3 demo teams flying logo'd canopies and trailing the flag.

Here is one for you, what if someone has the flag design sewn onto their canopy, is their canopy allowed to touch the ground?

All of my canopies have a PD logo on the stabilizer. In fact, I can hardly recall seeing ANY canopy that did not have the manufacturer's logo on it somewhere, usually on a stabilizer.

I know of several canopies that have been produced for demo use that were specifically built without logos of any sort.

The use of the US flag for advertising purposes is in very poor taste IMO.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[PhreeZone 15]

Look at my canopy some time I don't have a logo, warning label or any info on the canopy at all.

By logo'd I'm refering to having "COMPANY X" with their logo all over the bottom or top skin. The Knights used to have "USA Army" down one cell of thier canopies whish I think is great since their purpose is to promote the military. It it approriate to jump a canopy that says "Eat at Joes!" into a demo while carrying in the American flag? Thats a question I don't have an opinion on since I can see and understand both sides of the arguments.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[catfishhunter 1]

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I think it's a "hangup" if someone, anyone, thinks it more important to keep a flag off the good earth of the country it represents than to prevent injury to the flag bearer.

I am stunned Kallend.. Truly, I thought you where much smarter then that. The Flag Bearer Choose to fly the flag and if they could not "fly" the flag appropriatly then they shoudn't be flying it.

Your logic is twisted and from you that just doesn't make sense.

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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Do other nations have similar hangups about their flags? I know the UK doesn't.

Pardon me, Kallend.

With respect to not wanting the U.S. flag touching the ground, its not a "hangup".

If you don't understand that and/or don't have a problem with the Union Jack drug on the dirt, I'm okay with either of those, but don't refer the U.S. flag being dropped on the ground as a "hangup".

Thanks.





Sorry all for the Offtopic-ness... Now back On Topic.

I think it's a "hangup" if someone, anyone, thinks it more important to keep a flag off the good earth of the country it represents than to prevent injury to the flag bearer.

Kallend,


I have pride in my country and its flag. The display, care and handling of the U.S. Flag should be done in an honorable way; Period. You don't have to agree with that and I don't care if you do not and, frankly, I pay little attention to your posts.

However...

Your argument about "safety" is wrong, IMO, or silly at best or a feeble attempt on your part to hide behind the "safety" card at the least; Ooooh, "You can't disagree with this! Its for Safety!" Nonsense.

The solution is simple. If you or anyone else doesn't want to get hurt jumping a flag, banner, smoke, streamers, etc. on a demo, its simple, don't jump them on a demo or don't do the demo in the first place.

Myself and many others don't like seeing our country's flag drug on the ground.

Either intentionally or otherwise, I feel that you are trying to bait me and others with your posts on this tread.

Retort that you're not... I don't care.

Again, The display, care and handling of the U.S. Flag should be done in an honorable way; Period.

[RB_Hammer 0]

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I think it's a "hangup" if someone, anyone, thinks it more important to keep a flag

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I think it's a "hangup" if someone, anyone, thinks it more important to keep a flag off the good earth of the country it represents than to prevent injury to the flag bearer.

What a fouled statement. That is the same as me taking a large American flag and putting it on my car antenna then saying, "No problem, if it covers my windshield, I will just cut it off because I can't drive safely with it on the windshield." It is a matter of respect. I wouldn't do that because it is highly probable I would have to cut it away, and disrespect it by letting it go to the ground or street. That same respect should be used by those that choose to jump the American flag in the planning they do to make sure it does not touch the dirt. off the good earth of the country it represents than to prevent injury to the flag bearer.

What a fouled statement. That is the same as me taking a large American flag and putting it on my car antenna then saying, "No problem, if it covers my windshield, I will just cut it off because I can't drive safely with it on the windshield." It is a matter of respect. I wouldn't do that because it is highly probable I would have to cut it away, and disrespect it by letting it go to the ground or street. That same respect should be used by those that choose to jump the American flag in the planning they do to make sure it does not touch the dirt.

"I'm not lost. I don't know where I'm going, but there's no sense in being late."
Mathew Quigley

[DSE 3]

this whole new direction of the thread is ridiculous, IMO.
Look at Gene's situation. Could he plan for a child to run into the landing area? Should he have stayed his course and potentially killed the kid, but hey...no one could say the flag touched the ground.
Or in the process of saving the child, should he have died so the flag didn't touch the ground?
Shit happens. You plan for success, but to ignore that sometimes situations go beyond your control?

No one *wants* to see the flag touch the ground, no one intentionally drops the flag to the ground. But you can't always control the crowd, wind, or other potential issues that may come into play.
It's absurd to suggest that not touching the flag to the ground is paramount to a flag-bearers safety.
I'm driving down the road, flag on my antenna, and a 4x4 hits the side of my car, spilling oil onto my flag and dropping it to the ground. Have I just disrespected the flag? Should I forego a display of my patriotism because an accident might occur?

[wmw999 2,121]

But the point that it might not be worth using the flag during a jump is one well worth considering.

Wouldn't a red white and blue banner, or something with stars and stripes that wasn't the flag, give that same patriotic flavor without pissing off some folks?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DSE 3]

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But the point that it might not be worth using the flag during a jump is one well worth considering.

Wouldn't a red white and blue banner, or something with stars and stripes that wasn't the flag, give that same patriotic flavor without pissing off some folks?

Wendy W.

I understood the point, to which my response is:
Should I forego a display of my patriotism because an accident might occur?

I could be wrong, but I'd bet a banner representing the flag would offend/upset some folks more than seeing the flag touch the ground. More importantly, many times the Star Spangled Banner is playing and/or people reciting the pledge as the flag comes in. It's not appropriate to recite the pledge nor play the national anthem when something other than the flag is flying in, is it?

[AFFI 0]

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this whole new direction of the thread is ridiculous

Perhaps it could be stated with a high level of accuracy that a recognizable percentage of posts in these forums fit into that category?

I have been surprised at how many dissertations in these forums can be identified as whiny self-centered and spoiled individuals wanting their own way and crying about how they are not getting it bleed onto the overall scheme of things. There are so many variables involved the people who are doing the whining do not take into consideration simply because they are not getting the car they wanted for their 16th birthday...

For crying out loud! Which is what everyone seems to be doing…

Waaahhhhhh …..

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…