Rig considerations... Velocity or Sunpath?

[braden.smith 0]

Here is the deal. I work as a full time camera flyer. I am on pace to be doing about 900-1000 jumps a year. I am currently working at a year-round operation. I have been jumping an old Javelin for a while (2000.) I really do like the Javelin for a variety of reasons. Easy to pack, simple, comfortable and safe. I also have been thrilled with Sunpath's customer service in the past. I met one of the reps when I was in Lodi this past summer and he was AWESOME. I am a new and poor skydiver, only about 900 jumps so I certainly don't expect to get a lot of attention from any sort of reps or professionals in the industry. I had some questions for the Sunpath rep and I got WAAAAYYY more than I bargained for. He chatted me about my rig for like 30mins, answered all my questions, gave me his card and offered to replace my number 1 flap on reserve (little fraying.) I also had a recall on my reserve pillow which was handled in a very timely fashion. The only part of the Jav that I don't like is my main flap comes open quite a bit. I started routing my bridle and stowing my main flap between the number 2 and 3 flaps and it took care of the issue (mostly.) I am also not totally thrilled with the pop top. I like the idea of my reserve PC completely covered. I don't know if that makes any since form a rigging perspective as I am not a rigger. I do like the way the bridle is stowed too with the little bit of velcro right about the main pin.

I don't know a ton about Infinity but everyone I know that has one simply raves about them. They are sleek, streamline and simple. I have also heard a lot of riggers say they are one of the easier reserves to pack. This is important to me because if I have a chop on a busy Saturday, I want a rigger to be able to attend to my rig quickly and not mind doing so. I have heard some riggers bitch about certain containers and that could potentially put me to the back of the priorities list, were all human right? I heard that the Infinity also has one of the quickest opening reserves on the market (skyhook not included.) I don't want a skyhook as I am a camera flyer. The enclosed reserve PC is also enticing. Infinity also does a double wide leg strap which I heard is much more comfortable. The main flap is bullet proof. I heard they also offer great customer service. Above all else, they almost put a rig into space. The cheaper price also makes a difference for me because I am a poor camera flyer. Safety is obviously my #1 priority but they both seem very safe.

Would anyone like to offer some pros and cons to either system? I would love some input from the community. Thanks to all.

Blue skies from Texas,

-Braden

[jjudd 0]

Infinity's Customer service and rigs are top notch! I have never been a javelin guy it was micron and infinity and infinity has way better customer service turn, around times(UPT is military customer service primarily and thats all they care about unless you want to pay extra), and quality is equal if not better. There is much more customization available with the rig design also.

Feel free to pm if you want

Justin

[braden.smith 0]

Thanks for the response.

[faulknerwn 36]

Why are you concerned about the partial poptop? Generaly the more flaps in the way the longer its gonna take for your pilot chute to get out and your reserve open because the pilot chute has to do more work to get IMO the airstream.

I know people complain about racers but I've never heard about the partial poptop of a javelin.

[skytribe 16]

Packing a javelin or a Infinity is very little difference. I pack both and have no problems with either. The time difference to pack is minimal. The rig I hear riggers bitch about are racers - almost all the other rigs fall into two categories which are either Javelin like (Semi external pilot chute) or Vector like (Completely enclosed pilot chute).

Spacerfoam on the legpads makes things comfortable. Whether single or double width - I never had a problem doing CRW and hanging in harness for long durations. If the harness is made to fit, you'll have few comfort issues with either.

Speed of reserve deployment on both is comparable without skyhook. The semi-external pilot chute may potentially lead to quicker deployment as less flaps to push out the way BUT this difference is probably negligable.

I've never had a problem with Sunpath customer service in 20+ years of owning javelin's. I havent had cause to speak to infinity but have no doubt they do good customer service. As others have said.

Both a safe rigs that function great. I guess it comes down to personal preference and cost for you.

[davelepka 4]

Quote

I work as a full time camera flyer. I am on pace to be doing about 900-1000 jumps a year

I am a new and poor skydiver,

If both of those are true, you're doing something wrong.

Quote

I have a chop on a busy Saturday, I want a rigger to be able to attend to my rig quickly and not mind doing so.

Despite being a 'poor' skydiver, you better pony up for a spare cutaway/reserve handle and a freebag/PC when you buy your rig. No matter how eager your rigger is to drop everything and repack your stuff, if you lose any of the above, you're out of the game until you replace it.

Here's a hint - before you have a problem, figure out which one of the TIs has a good rig that fits you. If they're busy doing tandems and your rig is out of service, just borrow their rig for a day or two. Even if you have to flip them $50 to use it, you'll make way more than that in the process.

Anyway, buy an Infinity. I've got 8 seasons on my current Infinity with no problems of any kind. I like it enough that I'm going to order another one for the upcoming season. Besides being less expensive than the rest, they can typically deliver it much faster than the other manufacturers.

[SEREJumper 1]

If you can try on an Infinity, or better yet jump one that fits you, you would be doing yourself a service. My experiences were that an Infinity i bought was longer than the Javelin I was used to jumping (both made to fit me) both fit a 170 main/160 reserve.

The Infinity was pretty bomb proof and you could pick up the rig by the main closing flap and it wouldn't open (but opens like a charm in the air). I ended up sticking with the Javelin, I like the the shorter rig for my body style.

Try before you buy will go a LONG way, no matter what anyone says on here.

We're not fucking flying airplanes are we, no we're flying a glorified kite with no power and it should be flown like one! - Stratostar

[councilman24 36]

If you have an experienced rigger that knows how to pack Javelins the partially exposed PC (not what I call a pop top because the pin is still on top) is not an issue. And the reserve is the appropriate size for the container. Some rigger compensate for inexperience with a longer loop. Not good.

Either of these two rigs would be a good choice with my own choice probably going to Infinity.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[tdog 0]

I have packed both reserves.... I personally like the looks of the Jav better than the Infinity...

I have seen some Infinity rigs that just look bad (fabric weave being too smooth + shape of the rig being too long and flat + wrinkles on flaps).


So, I would go with the Jav because you said the rep took 30 minutes to work with you, and wanted to build a customer service relationship with you... This is worth something, and if all other factors are equal (price, delivery time, etc), that rep should be rewarded for his efforts.

[djmarvin 2]

Both rigs are solid options. I have owned both Javelin and Infinity rigs and enjoyed both, but have stuck with Infinity over the years. I have jumped VSE rigs since 1999 and listed below are a few reasons why I prefer their rigs.

Reserve pilot chute design:
-I prefer a fully enclosed pilot chute. The smaller rigs typically are harder for riggers to keep the partially exposed PC completely seated and you occasionally see PC material peaking out from the pop top.
-VSE makes their reserve PC of approximately upper 90% nylon and lower 10% mesh. This allows for the PC to inflate much quicker even if it some how ends up on its side (e.g. unstable reserve deployment)

Riser covers:
-I like the fact that VSE uses secondary riser covers. How many times have we all seen someone with toggle or brke line peeking out. The shape of the secondary riser covers helps promote even deployment of the risers from the container.
-I have never had my primary riser covers come open when they were not suppose to and they have always open when they are suppose to. If you lay the riser covers out flat you will see they have a straight line which helps prevent risers from hanging up on deployment.

Main pin flap:
-The main pin flap and the top main container flap are anchored from the same point keeping them the same length relative to each other at all times. This keeps the pin flap secure at all times even when changing canopy sizes. I can pick up any of my Infinity rigs by the main pin flap with out it coming open.

Leg Straps:
-VSE makes an extremely comfortable rig. One of the reasons is their double wide leg straps. I have not placed a leg strap over an Infinity leg strap that was wider (sport rigs, tandem rigs typically have very wide straps also). Displacement is a key factor in leg strap comfort. The wider the strap the more area to sit on. Think sitting on a 2x4 vs. 2 2x4s.

Customer Service:
-VSE has AWESOME customer service (as do many manufacturers). Try contacting most manufacturers in the sport. Some you will never get a response from. Some will be slow to reply. VSE typically responds IMMEDIATELY.

Cost:
-Equip each rig the same and you will see that VSE rigs are more affordable than most.

These are a few (of several) reasons I prefer VSE over other rigs. I hope this helped. Hit me up at the DZ and jump my Infinity with the 135 in it and I am sure you will agree.

DJ Marvin
AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E
http://www.theratingscenter.com

[braden.smith 0]

Thanks for all of the input. Infinity is probably the direction I am heading however it might upset some people at the DZ .

A friend of mine who is a rigger in Hawaii said that he has seen some weird things come from Infinity that had to be sent back. Main trays too big or reserve trays too small. Emergency handles way too high on the lift webbing, 3 ring sits too far forward or too far back. I will take this info with a grain of salt because this is the ONLY person I have heard say anything negative about Infinity after about a dozen or more that I have spoken to.

Thanks again for all the thought out responses.

[skytribe 16]

Everyone has a vested interest somewhere - people who have brand x generally don't rubbish it because they don't want to look like they bought something crap and didn't do their research.

I think any rig you buy from a reputable manufacturer is going to work just fine. If you buying new then they should fit comfortable as they are made to fit your dimensions.

I've seen weird things on all manufacturers - so again take with a pinch of salt. When ordering make sure that the container is sized appropriately and not just for the smallest you can get.

Whichever way you chose I think you will do just fine.

Both are fine rigs, with 1000's of happy customers out there.

[tbrown 26]

Like you, I owned and jumped a 2001 model Javelin for several years - and was very happy with it. But when I finally had the opportunity to order my custom "dream" rig, I decided on an Infinity.

As happy as I was with the Javelin, I think they're over priced, probably because they're the most popular rig on the market and can charge whatever they want. My research also showed me that Sunpath nickels & dimes for "extras" like hackey handles and collapsible pilot chutes. That's really bullshit, as those features are standard on almost all other competitors' rigs. The nickel & diming gives the illusion of knocking the basic price down lower, but nobody wants a rig these days without most of the extras.

Because I was buying a dream rig, I did opt for most (but not all) of the extra bells & whistles available for the Infinity. I did not go for chest rings on the harness, as I don't swoop, and I elected the plastic hook knife over the metal one. One pleasant surprise was finding the spring clips on the leg strap adjustors, which is a standard feature on all but the cad plated hardware. VSE told me they got onto this feature after seeing some climbing harnesses, so after putting them through testing, added them as a standard feature (on all but cad plated, where it apparently doesn't work so well).

Both Sunpath and VSE offer excellent customer service, but as I live on the west coast, I favor VSE for being "next door" in Oregon.

I have used the reserve on my Javelin twice, once on a low speed cutaway and once on a terminal pilot chute hesitation. Both times the reserve deployment was very quick and smooth (the cutaway was assisted by a standard RSL, which beat me to the punch on my reserve handle). So far, with 150+ jumps on my Infinity, I haven't had the "opportunity" to use the reserve, but I'm really impressed with the size and design of the reserve p/c. Again, I'm using a standard RSL with the Infinity. As to whether the pilot chute is completely enclosed, partly enclosed, of completely exposed, I see that as a matter of personal choice, though I like the way the Infinity p/c is completely enclosed.

I find the Infinity has a much tighter main container to close up, also that Infinity doesn't have the leverage on the closing loop that the Javelin has. But I do my own packing and got used to closing up the main quickly and easily enough. I love what a smooth tight rig it is. And last but not least, I love the double riser flap protection on the main risers.

I think for price (especially including "extras" as standard features), fit, comfort, and advanced design, you can't go wrong with the Infinity.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[braden.smith 0]

Thanks tbrown. Awesome info there.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Ok my $0.02. Worth exactly what you paid for it.
Disclaimer: I have an Infinity and like it very much. I have jumped a Javelin that belongs to a friend several times.

Both are good rigs. I don't have any preference for packing, either main or reserve.

I had a bit of difficulty with Sunpath customer service on the one occasion I e-mailed them. It took them longer to get back to me than it took me to find an alternate source of the info I needed. But that's a sample size of one.

Velocity c/s has been great, and I've used it several times.

The sales rep for Velocity was fabulous. Gail isn't there anymore, but I'd guess whoever it is now is the same. She spent a good half hour to 45 minutes showing me the rig, and answering my questions. She showed me the measurement page and pointed out where mistakes are most likely to happen (and also really emphasized not trying to do it alone).
They called with a couple questions on my color choices, and kept me informed of the progress when it was being made (got order, confirmed order, start construction, finished and shipping out).

Personally I prefer a fully enclosed reserve pilot chute. Others have different opinions.
I've played around a little with a reserve closing loop that I didn't want to re-use, and closed it out of sequence a couple different ways. The RPC launched fine no matter what I did.

I like the riser protection, main pin protection, and reserve pin protection. Those flaps aren't opening up by accident, yet open fine when needed.

I chose a new Infinity, but I like the Javelin too. The choice is mostly preferrences, you'll probably be happy with either one, as long as it's sized correctly (harness, main and reserve).

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[braden.smith 0]

More great info. Thanks a lot. Just out of curiosity, have other containers encountered problems when closing flaps in different sequence on reserve?

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

Quote

More great info. Thanks a lot. Just out of curiosity, have other containers encountered problems when closing flaps in different sequence on reserve?

I don't know. I just had a situation where my reserve closing loop was still mostly intact, but had a little fraying on it. I wasn't willing to use it for real, so I decided to answer the "what if I do this...?" question.

It seemed to work fine, even with the side flaps closed over the top and bottom ones.

NOTE: This is not something I would even consider taking up into the air. It was done on the ground. (just for those who only read some of a post and then react with an "YOU'RE GOING TO KILL SOMEONE DOING THAT!!!")

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jonathan.newman 1]

I currently own and jump both a Jav and an Infinity.

I bought the Infinity used after it was cut off a jumper following an accident. I sent it to VSE with an order form listing my measurements. I got the new harness, new leg pads x2, new BOC (cut in like original), RSL, and one toggle, along with a minor stitch repair for $400, shipping included. In less than 3 weeks. Top-notch service, priced right.

The Jav works as it's supposed to. I've only had to deal with Sunpath over the phone a time or two, but great service there.

As for the main flap cover coming open, make sure your closing loop is not too long, make sure you have the right d-bag in the right orientation. Make sure you aren't over stuffing a larger canopy. Learn to pack your canopy smaller. Finally, try pulling the 1 and 2 flap closer together before you close the sides.

As a rigger, both are equally easy for me to pack. As a camera flyer on my DZ, you'd be second in line for a repack right behind the tandem rig. I'd stay late to get them both done.

As for opening speed, every reserve under a TSO has been tested to open in something like 3 seconds or 500 feet. And 4 secs with three intentional linetwists. Want the fastest reserve opening? That's been beaten to death, but one of those rigs will take you down a notch in priority.