Brake line busted: best response?

[faulknerwn 38]

See I have the opposite feeling. I've got 17 reserve rides (lots of CRW and tiny ellipticals) - I'm not afraid to use my reserve. But I'm not gonna do it unless I have to. I've landed some bizarre stuff resulting from CRW - doing a PLF on landing with no issues.

I've landed broken lines on multiple occasions - I just don't wanna use my reserve unless I'm gonna be severely injured if I land my main.

Using rear risers to land is something I would always do unless I was on a very tiny/radical canopy..

I did a demo with our student gear tonight (Solo 230). I'm by no means the strongest person out there - almost all guys would be stronger than me. I was using both front risers and rear risers without thinking twice on this large canopy (I weigh 135). I can see some small women having a problem perhaps flying on rears, but I have trouble figuring out why most people would - rear risers don't take much strength - not like fronts...

I guess I'm not going to trade something I know for something I hope works unless what I have REALLY sucks...

We have our students doing rear riser turns and flares on both levels 6 and 7 on student status. They practice flat turns on levels 4 and 5. Its required for the A license so no one should be not learning this anymore...

[wrightskyguy 1]

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would like to add in regards to the comments about reserves failing, I think it's also important to have faith in your rigger and faith in your reserve.

***I am confident about my rigger and my reserve, that being said, I would never use it for no good reason, like a broken steering line. If you can't flare to stand up with your rear risers, PLF. If you can't PLF, go bowling.

John Wright

World's most beloved skydiver

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[WingFlyer 0]

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I am confident about my rigger and my reserve, that being said, I would never use it for no good reason, like a broken steering line. If you can't flare to stand up with your rear risers, PLF. If you can't PLF, go bowling.

Agreed. That's my sentiment. Some people feel ok going to reserve even when they don't *have* to. Busted brake lines and having to do a rear riser landing in my mind is not worth the risk of chopping and having a worse reserve. Furthermore, the reserve is smaller than the main. I've never landed it.

I've practiced rear riser flares on the main. I'm used to it. Never near the ground, but I'll PLF and not flare too high/aggressivlely.

Looks like opinion is divided here. It's good to see the different perspectives. They match what I hear from the varying instructors at my DZ. Thanks for the input.

[NWFlyer 2]

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the reserve is smaller than the main. I've never landed it.

Now would be a really good time to reread skybytch's post above. And then read it again.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[billvon 2,881]

>Furthermore, the reserve is smaller than the main. I've never landed it.

I'd recommend you consider doing something to change those two statements!

[phoenixlpr 0]

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>Furthermore, the reserve is smaller than the main. I've never landed it.

I'd recommend you consider doing something to change those two statements!

Well,time can change it. I have not demod any reserve yet. I had lots of jumps on F1-11 canopies. I think it was really helpful.

[bch7773 0]

on your next few jumps (NOT some point in the future, cause it will never get done... do it on your next jumps), practice doing some rear riser turns and flares up high, with your brakes unstowed.

you will learn about the rear riser flares and you will feel better.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[phoenixlpr 0]

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practice doing some rear riser turns and flares up high, with your brakes unstowed.

It does not mean too much as long as you are not doing it close to the ground. Flaring with rears for the first time takes a leap of faith, not just under 100 jump , even over 500....

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I agree flaring with one's rears is a leap of faith if you never use your rears. But part of learning your canopy up high is to get used to the feeling of the imminent stall. If people continue to ignore their canopy control responsibilities, we will continue to have these sort of threads and these sort of incidents where people are not comfortable flying their canopies in all scenarios.

Two summers ago at the bridge in Twin Falls I had a brake fire on opening (stupid packing mistake on my part) on a sub terminal slider off BASE jump. I did not hesitate one second and I threw the other control line away and proceeded to fly my canopy on rears and stood up the landing on the beach (sort of like a mini-swoop under a BASE canopy). But I fly my rears on virtually every jump I make be it a small pocket rocket or a large BASE canopy. It's all about knowing the performance and stall characteristics of the canopies you fly. We just need to know that the canopy will stall at a high airspeed when flaring with the rear risers.

People need to start dedicating jumps towards canopy control. This attitude of let's just wing it under canopy needs to stop. I would not hesitate to land with my rears if a control line broke on my JVX.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[el_chester 4]

I had been looking for a nice steady wind day to try landing on rears with my brakes unstowed for a long time. So, a couple of months ago I found the right conditions, and went up and tried that out. Worked fine, although almost exactly after placing my feet on the ground, my canopy quickly stalled behind me. That just proved what I was expecting and I did not hurt myself.

However, the leap of faith mentioned by phoenixlpr was definitely there... after having done many rear-riser flares up high, I expected a stall at the end of the flare and not knowing exactly when it was going to happen in relation to the ground made me a bit nervous.

On THE VERY NEXT JUMP... I needed to land on rears after the packer forgot his packing tool (or whatever you call the metallic thing to pull up the loop) in my container and it prevented me from unstowing one of my toggles. I did not re-stow the other one, but wrapped it around my hand so that it would more-or-less have as much brake in as the other one, and continued with rears to the ground from there.

It sure made me feel safe to KNOW I could handle the situation without cutting away.

This time I flared more carefully, plus with the unstowed brakes, the landing was a pretty normal one. This was on a stiletto 135 at just over 1.5 WL.

--
Be careful giving advice. Wise men don't need it, and fools won't heed it.

[fcajump 164]

Nothing that other's haven't already said, but a vote for:

Is it controllable and landable (and not likely to get worse)?

Yes -> land it.
No -> cut it before your hard deck.

Now, if you have never flow with rears, you have not fully learned your canopy and need to do so ASAP. INCLUDING FLARE. (up high, this will be much different than toggle flare.)

Done it twice... jumps 20 & 21 on a Goliath (as the name implies, its BIG). No problems, but a PLF was helpful on the second. (Rigger didn't change the second line when the first broke... , so it broke the next week and he got to change it then...)

Now, given a smaller, twitchy canopy... maybe not. (see above test)

Jim

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[AFFI 0]

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Now, if you have never flow with rears, you have not fully learned your canopy and need to do so ASAP. INCLUDING FLARE. (up high, this will be much different than toggle flare.)

Good advice, and learn how to stall your canopy using rear risers with brakes stowed and unstowed. Do this at a safe altitude - ergo way up there (above an altitude you are willing to cutaway from). This way you will know how NOT to stall close to the ground...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[popsjumper 2]

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Now, if you have never flow with rears, you have not fully learned your canopy and need to do so ASAP. INCLUDING FLARE. (up high, this will be much different than toggle flare.)

[wrightskyguy 1]

[WingFlyer 0]

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Wrong! Cutting away a canopy with nothing more than a broken steering line is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

I would tend to agree in my very limited experience. The reserve may be worse. Sure, it's a small risk, but it's there. Lets say you can't land that well with rear risers. That may be better than bouncing with a worse problem on the reserve. Yea, trust your rigger and all that, but bottom line, taking another unecessary risk with you life as opposed to a rough landing? Why?

[billvon 2,881]

>Lets say you can't land that well with rear risers. That may be better
>than bouncing with a worse problem on the reserve.

True. The metric I would use would be to do a practice flare (with brakes, risers whatever) and use the results to determine whether or not you can land it safely. If it seems to slow down, and you think you can handle the resulting landing? Go for it and be ready to PLF. If you try it and you can't pull down the risers, or it turns hard when you do it, or it just stalls instantly? Cutting away may be a better option - depending on canopy size, how much you can safely flare it etc.

Needless to say it's better to try this under ideal conditions before having to do it after your brake line breaks.

[AFFI 0]

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Wrong! Cutting away a canopy with nothing more than a broken steering line is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

I would tend to agree in my very limited experience. The reserve may be worse. Sure, it's a small risk, but it's there. Lets say you can't land that well with rear risers. That may be better than bouncing with a worse problem on the reserve. Yea, trust your rigger and all that, but bottom line, taking another unecessary risk with you life as opposed to a rough landing? Why?

Rear riser input - Versus – Toggle input

Rear riser input is much more sensitive than Toggle input. It is much easier to stall a canopy, even with a conservative wing loading using rear risers. Having very low jump numbers there is a much greater probability that the jumper may stall the canopy and fall 5, 10, 20 or 30+ feet off the ground (as opposed to a jumper with many hundreds or even thousands of landings and practice using rears) and any of these heights could cause considerable injuries and or death. Additionally, making turns low to the ground, such as an evasive maneuver to avoid an obstacle can also be over emphasized using rear risers as opposed to toggles thus creating a greater risk of injury or death. Until a jumper is proficient using rear risers for maneuvering and flaring utilizing the reserve canopy is a much safer option.

The occurrences of reserve canopy failures are rare, and when there are failures of the reserve it is not always a system fault, there are also jumper errors to consider such as body position at the time of the reserve deployment. A factor in this latter situation may be further complicated by the jumper being nervous to use the reserve simply because they are fearful of a reserve failure. This is why it is important to trust the reserve with total confidence and to continue to train emergency procedures throughout jumping activities in ones skydiving career.

As far as I am concerned, my reserve will function properly 100% of the time.
I trust it totally and I shut out the miniscule possibility of a reserve failure.
This will better my chances of remaining calm whenever a situation calls for its use.

Hope this answers your inquiry as to “Why”.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[OnYourBack 0]

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As far as I am concerned, my reserve will function properly 100% of the time.

Thats what Shayna Richardson thought about her reserve. She had a rude awakening when she opened it and it spun her all the way to a face plant in a parking lot. Proper understanding of your gear and what your doing is what should keep you calm and relaxed.

[stayhigh 2]

my reserve is also smaller than my main and i have never landed my reserve..

what is so wrong about that????

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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my reserve is also smaller than my main and i have never landed my reserve..

what is so wrong about that????

Hopefully it is not too much smaller. Plus maybe you should consider trying to get some demo jumps in of the same type and size reserve you have (PD offers this, not sure about the other manufactures). You know while they should not be feared, they do fly different than your main and do you want to be in a tight landing area under a canopy you have never flown before under stressfull conditions?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Andy9o8 2]

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my reserve is also smaller than my main and i have never landed my reserve..

what is so wrong about that????

For myself, I gauge whether the reserve on any rig I jump is big enough not by comparing its size to the main, but by my wingloading under the reserve - partly because I might have to land it in a tight out, and partly to survive a no-input landing if I'm unconscious or disabled.

[AFFI 0]

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As far as I am concerned, my reserve will function properly 100% of the time.

Thats what Shayna Richardson thought about her reserve. She had a rude awakening when she opened it and it spun her all the way to a face plant in a parking lot. Proper understanding of your gear and what your doing is what should keep you calm and relaxed.

And there is a much larger number of individuals afraid to use their reserve that had worse results.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[Krip 2]

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Wrong! Cutting away a canopy with nothing more than a broken steering line is absolutely the wrong thing to do.

I would tend to agree in my very limited experience. The reserve may be worse. Sure, it's a small risk, but it's there. Lets say you can't land that well with rear risers. That may be better than bouncing with a worse problem on the reserve. Yea, trust your rigger and all that, but bottom line, taking another unecessary risk with you life as opposed to a rough landing? Why?

Rear riser input - Versus – Toggle input

Rear riser input is much more sensitive than Toggle input. It is much easier to stall a canopy, even with a conservative wing loading using rear risers. Having very low jump numbers there is a much greater probability that the jumper may stall the canopy and fall 5, 10, 20 or 30+ feet off the ground (as opposed to a jumper with many hundreds or even thousands of landings and practice using rears) and any of these heights could cause considerable injuries and or death. Additionally, making turns low to the ground, such as an evasive maneuver to avoid an obstacle can also be over emphasized using rear risers as opposed to toggles thus creating a greater risk of injury or death. Until a jumper is proficient using rear risers for maneuvering and flaring utilizing the reserve canopy is a much safer option.

The occurrences of reserve canopy failures are rare, and when there are failures of the reserve it is not always a system fault, there are also jumper errors to consider such as body position at the time of the reserve deployment. A factor in this latter situation may be further complicated by the jumper being nervous to use the reserve simply because they are fearful of a reserve failure. This is why it is important to trust the reserve with total confidence and to continue to train emergency procedures throughout jumping activities in ones skydiving career.

As far as I am concerned, my reserve will function properly 100% of the time.
I trust it totally and I shut out the miniscule possibility of a reserve failure.
This will better my chances of remaining calm whenever a situation calls for its use.

Hope this answers your inquiry as to “Why”.

Hi AFFI

Personally I agree with you, and will do likewise.

The prupose of the reserve is to save our Butt. If we can't rely on it we shouldn't be jumping it.

Why complicate the EP's with options for broken lines

Main broke, cutaway now and go for reserve Find the freebag, main,,pay the rigger say thank you and go back to jumping.

One Jump Wonder

[AFFI 0]

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Why complicate the EP's with options for broken lines

Main broke, cutaway now and go for reserve

Unless one is prepared and confident it can be controlled and safely landed, than land the main right?

The salient point others have been pointing out is to land a canopy that can be landed safely - deciding when to go to EP's is based on each individual’s skill level and confidence in their abilities.

If I have a problem with my main, but I am confident that I can safely land it then I am going to land it. If I am not confident I can land it, time for another reserve ride...

Makes perfect sense to me.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[hukturn 0]

Ohhhh, yeah!! Even the most beautiful tiny rig will not look so great after a bounce. If the reserve is not what you need, get something that will work for you.