STUDENT TRAINING USING Two ACTION WITH RSL on the cutaway And AAD on reserve

[stevepearce 0]

HI ALL IM CURRENTLY WORKING AT A DROP ZONE HERE IN AUSTRALIA
and am interested in finding out all the facts as to why it could/ could not be agreable that students be can trained on equipment that is equal
to what they will be jumping for thier skydiving future

If you can't kill yourself doing it, its not a sport... its a game.

Risk factors do not add up, they multiply

[diablopilot 2]

Training students on the type of gear they will be jumping it the ONLY way I prefer.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[jakee 1,254]

So basically, you're asking whether to use normal or SOS emergency handles?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[AndyMan 7]

Students should be trained on gear that is functionally identical to gear they will purchase later.

The only difference should Student vs Expert AAD, and canopy size.

_Am

__

You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead.

[riggerrob 558]

I sort of agree with the concept.
While double-action handles train the same emergency procedures as regualr skydiving gear, and they keep all but the worst idiots alive, they are a rigger's nightmare.
Furthermore, I doubt if the average jump-master is bright enough to assemble them correctly.

When Parachutes Australia sent the first double-action prototype to Rigging Innovations (during the mid-1990s) my first response was "Too many moving parts."

Yes, Beiseker, Alberta may have used double-action Javelins for many years, and yes, I repacked all those Javelins for their last year of service, but I still thought they were a rigger's nightmare.

[DougH 270]

Can some one clarify the nomenclature for me. By double action are you referring to a SOS system, or a the two handle system seen on most sport rigs?

I did my student progression on a vector II with seperate reserve and cutaway handles, I am very thankful that I didn't have to change systems when I got my own gear. That would have tweeked my head!!

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[mark 102]

Most students do not progress beyond the first few jumps. An SOS system (one handle to cut away the main and pull the reserve) allows simplified emergency procedures at a time when students are overloaded with new information, at the cost of slightly increased hazard for the few students who need to make the transition to separate handles.

Mark

[riggerrob 558]

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Can some one clarify the nomenclature for me. By double action are you referring to a SOS system, or a the two handle system seen on most sport rigs?

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Three different systems: TAS, SOS and DAS.

Two Action System is installed on most skydiving rigs. The cutaway handle has two yellow cables and is Velcroed to the right side of the harness. A separate ripcord handle (usually only one cable, with a ripcord pin on the far end) is Vecroed to the left side of the harness.

Single Operation System attaches all three cables (two yellow and one steel) to one handle Velcroed to the left side of the harness. The primary advantage is simplified emergency procedures (i.e. "If you don't like what you see over-head, just pull the handle on the left side of your chest.") for first jump students. The disadvantage is that they have to be re-trained when they buy personal rigs.
SOS can also be a headache for riggers because tolerances are tighter, specifically about cable lengths.

Dual Action Systems try to combine the best of both worlds, with two handles, either of which will solve a malfunction. DAS still has a cutaway handle Velcroed to the left side of the harness and a reserve ripcord Velcroed to the left side of the harness. However, DAS ripcords are similar to SOS ripcords because they have three cables (two yellow and one steel) so that a student stupid enough to only pull the ripcord handle will still cutaway his main before deploying his reserve.
The disadvantage with DAS is even more cables with even tighter tolerances. They also need special risers with two grommets, fly-away double-ended white loops, etc.

All three systems usually include RSLs and AADs for back-up/redundancy.

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[Andrewwhyte 1]

The other disadvantage to the system (as with the SOS) is that the ripcord must be extra long to ensure that the correct sequence is followed (the cutaway cables do their job before the ripcord). Two possible problems come from this:
1. The student feels the resistance from the cutaway cables and stops pulling, thinking the job is done, and doesn't complete the ripcord pull (this one is particular to the SOS).
2. A small student with short arms and a poorly adjusted rig may be able to get to full arms length without pulling the elongated ripcord. The fix is to emphasize that they go back into a big wide arch with the reserve handle in their hand, but it seams to me that you are creating one problem while fixing another.

[livendive 8]

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The only difference should Student vs Expert AAD, and canopy size.

I'm curious how many instructors agree with you. Personally, I'm not a fan of the "student" CYPRES, even though I've got one in each of my student rigs. I think they fix a problem that rarely exists, and increase the risk of a problem that's more common. In my experience, students are much more likely to chop a landable main than to not chop a mal. Exactly one of my prior students has failed to chop a mal (blown up canopy), and it was a year or two after his student status...he had a hundred-ish jumps, was jumping stoned, and got to go for a ride in a pretty helicopter for his efforts. I also think students are much more likely to do an aggressive turn below 1000 feet than to not chop a mal. While canopy choices do reduce the chance of personal CRW, just last year I had a guy fire his student CYPRES while under a Navigator 280...I believe he was the second to do so with a Navigator at my DZ. I was glad I'd just spent 20 minutes reviewing 2-out procedures with him right before the jump.

When these CYPRESs hit the end of their lifespan, I think I'll replace them with experts (if not sooner).

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[jheadley 0]

One reason I've heard for using student cypres's is just for liability reasons. If a student goes in, for any reason, and the family sues, and they find out the AAD was an "expert" AAD and not a student one, then that can look pretty bad.

[livendive 8]

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One reason I've heard for using student cypres's is just for liability reasons. If a student goes in, for any reason, and the family sues, and they find out the AAD was an "expert" AAD and not a student one, then that can look pretty bad.

Agreed, and that's a valid concern. I wish they weren't so named. Still, I'm thinking it's better to first minimize the chances of them going in, and once that's accomplished, try to minimize one's liability exposure. I'm not positive of it, but my gut feeling is that the student CYPRES adds more risk than it reduces.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[peek 20]

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Dual Action Systems...

Rob, can you confirm that the "official" name is Dual Action? Around these parts, and ever since I have known about their existence, we have called then Universal.

Can you point to some manuals that use the name?

Dual more or less describes what we do with our own gear, so that would seem to be confusing.

[stevepearce 0]

thank you all
keep the comments comming cheers blueskies steve

If you can't kill yourself doing it, its not a sport... its a game.

Risk factors do not add up, they multiply

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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The other disadvantage to the system (as with the SOS) is that the ripcord must be extra long to ensure that the correct sequence is followed (the cutaway cables do their job before the ripcord). Two possible problems come from this:
1. The student feels the resistance from the cutaway cables and stops pulling, thinking the job is done, and doesn't complete the ripcord pull (this one is particular to the SOS).
2. A small student with short arms and a poorly adjusted rig may be able to get to full arms length without pulling the elongated ripcord. The fix is to emphasize that they go back into a big wide arch with the reserve handle in their hand, but it seams to me that you are creating one problem while fixing another.

SOS... good or bad... and the Great RSL Debate withstanding... this is why if you're going to use an SOS an RSL should still be in place. I've seen it twice happen where in an emergency the student pulled the SOS handle just far enough to release the main and it was the RSL that fired the reserve and not the student that pulled the SOS handle far enough / stripped the cables to pull the reserve pin themselves... as evident... once by Video and the other on post reserve landing inspection, the obvious "RSL kink" in the reserve rip cord that reportedly wasn't there before the jump.

The should AFF students be trained on an "SOS system or a Two Handle System" debate has raged for years. I recall a ride to altitude once where I was considering pitching two jumpmasters out of the plane OR getting out myself on the way up to get some piece and quiet as they shouted at each other over which system was better.

I've never personally seen a Dual Action system, other then pictures (where effectively both the "cutaway" and "reserve" handle are both an SOS), but can agree with the "too many moving parts" comment.

Myself, I was trained on student gear with an SOS; R.I. Telisis rigs, and later was trained to transition to a dual handle system. I never had a cut-away and reserve ride on the student gear I jumped with an SOS, but have had 3 thus far (knock wood) on dual handled systems rigs.

My 2 cents, seeing as how even the vast majority of even AFF students never do more then a handful of jumps, if even ever more then one, the "simplicity" of an SOS seems more attractive from a training and safety factor. Something goes wrong, look at this one handle, grasp it, pull it to full arm extension, strip the cables, arch... and not the additional complexities of two handles, proper pull sequence of the two handles, one hand on each handle or two hands per handle, etc., etc.

Yes, the downside for those few students that do progress and become jumpers, they need to be retrained towards the end of student status to a two handle system. When I went through that "gear transition" training from an SOS to a two handle system, not only was the instructor very thorough about going over everything with me, he also impressed on my that it was MY responsibility to practice my (then) new emergency procedures on a two handle system so it would become muscle memory.

[riggerrob 558]

Altico calls it "Universal'" while Sun Path calls it "Dual Cutaway System."

[toronto_bill 0]

I have had two cutaways using the said "SOS' system. A vector type tandem rig with dual SOS. (Canadian Aerosports)

I have to say it worked. But on one I had to 'hand over hand' the handle to clear all the cables. Not something for a tandem EP. But I gpt it to work twice no prob. (1. total and 2.broken lines on opening.) I will back up the numerous posts already that talk about cable lengths. There is nothing 'crisp' and clean about it.

Know thy gear. Then jump it. As a student the need for one system to know and follow is clearly the strongest point. Students can learn better with one system.

mals: The first was my first phase two jump with an instructor with 2200 jmps.Drogue out fine...at 6000' Neither handle would budge. I gave each a two shot then went to my Ep's. I pulled the handle and found out that one arm length pull wouldn't do it. I managed my other arm over to allow a second yank....the pax was grabbing the ribbon handle. But, I can now say I beat my FJC instructor to the reserve handle. ()
The second was broken lines on opening(~100tand). Two inside front were spaghetti. Failed both control checks. The passenger asked 'if we'd have to get rid of it' I said 'yeah' and he immediately got into exit positon! (21 yr old kid- heads up) At this point, I realize I am the only thing holding things up here..hehe. I switched sides and pulled knowing one arms length aint enough...I feel the reserve go, and I immediately think: 4000' tandem base jump...this better work."

I had a 1000 jumps before i used an SOS. probably a good thing.

[Twilight_Sun 0]

I'm agree, cause I had a cutaway when I was a student (AFF-2). My muscle memory worked properly but RSL were a little faster :)

[stevepearce 0]

hI ALL THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR INPUT
I WOULD STILL LIKE TO SEE SOME MORE
COMMENTS FOR AND AGAINST IF POSSIBLE
ANY ONE ELSE HAVE ANY THOUGHTS
CHEERS STEVE

If you can't kill yourself doing it, its not a sport... its a game.

Risk factors do not add up, they multiply

[AFFI 0]

Quote

hI ALL THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR INPUT
I WOULD STILL LIKE TO SEE SOME MORE
COMMENTS FOR AND AGAINST IF POSSIBLE
ANY ONE ELSE HAVE ANY THOUGHTS
CHEERS STEVE

If you utilize the search function and do a little research you can find more information on this particular subject as it has been discussed before in alternate threads.

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[stevepearce 0]

Quote

Quote

hI ALL THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR INPUT
I WOULD STILL LIKE TO SEE SOME MORE
COMMENTS FOR AND AGAINST IF POSSIBLE
ANY ONE ELSE HAVE ANY THOUGHTS
CHEERS STEVE

If you utilize the search function and do a little research you can find more information on this particular subject as it has been discussed before in alternate threads.

thank you for the info
cheers steve

If you can't kill yourself doing it, its not a sport... its a game.

Risk factors do not add up, they multiply

[JohnMitchell 14]

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Most students do not progress beyond the first few jumps. An SOS system (one handle to cut away the main and pull the reserve) allows simplified emergency procedures at a time when students are overloaded with new information, at the cost of slightly increased hazard for the few students who need to make the transition to separate handles.

Although I train with whatever our DZO has, I agree with Mark on this one. My pref is SOS.

[stevepearce 0]

yes i could agree! but in a sport that has dwindling numbers maybe we should look a droping the
attitude of defeat and concentrate on keeping the students enthusiasm alive so the do progress to being fully licenced jumpers.

If you can't kill yourself doing it, its not a sport... its a game.

Risk factors do not add up, they multiply

[mark 102]

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Yes I could agree! But in a sport that has dwindling numbers maybe we should look a dropping the attitude of defeat and concentrate on keeping the students enthusiasm alive so they do progress to being fully licenced jumpers.

Even when our sport was growing fastest, most students did not progress beyond a few jumps.

Since licensed jumpers do not use ground-to-air radio, should student radios be eliminated?

Mark

[stevepearce 0]

Even when our sport was growing fastest, most students did not progress beyond a few jumps.

Since licensed jumpers do not use ground-to-air radio, should student radios be eliminated?

Mark



Thank you for your input but i think you are missing the point and changing the direction of what i am looking to clarify
regards steve

If you can't kill yourself doing it, its not a sport... its a game.

Risk factors do not add up, they multiply