Anniversary of Ted Nelson's death - discussion of future prevention

[billvon 2,396]

A year ago, Ted Nelson died while attempting a high performance landing. His death was especially tragic since several people on this forum warned him about the potential for just that sort of incident, and he did not heed their warnings. The original thread is here:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2346556

The original thread concerning this incident has been locked. Rather than bringing up the incident from recent history to discuss lessons learned and reinforce those lessons to keep people from getting hurt or killed in the future, it became another thing altogether, and was getting quite personal.

I am restarting this thread for discussions about preventing future incidents like Ted's ONLY. Comments about how so-and-so is a troll, or how everyone is a pompous blowhard etc will be deleted. Such comments are better reserved for PM's or in-person meetings.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Nothing in life is guaranteed. But if someone wants to get into high performance canopy flight, one needs to know that there are no short cuts and the people you see swooping typically have thousands of jumps and are often very current. With that in mind here are a few other ideas to follow:

1) Fly a canopy appropriately sized with the appropriate design based on your current skill, experience and currency level.

2) Dedicate jumps towards canopy control (hop n’ pops and high pulls). Flying in traffic is no time to be learning new canopy control techniques.

3) Seek out canopy control instruction from qualified canopy control instructors (count yourself lucky if you are local to these people and have access to them as mentors).

4) Continue to practice the drills these coaches teach you and never stop trying to learn more about the control range and performance envelop of your canopy.

5) Before you downsize, ask yourself (and preferably a mentor) why you feel you need to downsize.

6) Do not downsize to a smaller more aggressive canopy until you have put hundreds and hundreds of jumps on the current canopy and can perform the necessary canopy control skills (I forget where they are mentioned), but BillVon should have them up his sleeve some where.

7) Do not skip a step in the downsizing progression.

8) Seek out more canopy coaching whenever you change canopies and/or are looking to try the next more aggressive turn type.

9) Never think it can’t happen to you.

10) Unless you are one of the top PSTers, know that there is always someone better than you and keep the ego in check.

I know there are plenty more ideas …. but this is a start …

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[illusioneer 0]

This is a story worth telling and telling again. If someone gives you a warning... There is a reason.
If you chose to not heed the warning there may be dire results. If the person warning you has Many Many jumps, the dire results become very likely.

[dharma1976 0]

nuff said can we make whack our favorite canuck said sitcky somehow?

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[tdog 0]

Quote

His death was especially tragic since several people on this forum warned him about the potential for just that sort of incident, and he did not heed their warnings.

Observations

1. I don't think it is the responsibility of these forums to regulate skydiving. Often the person replying does not know, has not seen, or fully understand the person they are replying to.

2. I think on these forums often people use words and a tone of writing they would not use in person. They hide behind the internet. Unfortunately, this does not work, if anything it turns off the person on the other end more. As proof, I read all the locked threads on this subject, and a thread about a 120 velo mentioned in the locked threads as a reference of the "next guy". They all are the same. The delivery of the message is done poorly.

3. Those with a lot of experience (who, by the way, probably did things themselves a bit too early in their career) preach as if they are experts. The receiving side does not hear it. The reason is, they use justifications like, "I know more than you because of jump numbers."

Solutions:

1. Don't expect DZ.com to regulate someone's actions.

2. Since online you rarely know the person on the other side, it may be helpful to post what DID and DID NOT work for YOU, instead of telling the other person what SHOULD work for THEM. If you are a great swooper, telling someone how YOU DID IT makes you a role model, telling someone how they CAN'T do it, makes you the fun police.

3. When you see someone posting something dangerous, instead of saying a brash, "you are an idiot", post questions...

Example:
"Downsizing at this point makes you an idiot"
vs
"Hey, so you want to downsize. I found practicing these things worked for me. If you answer a comfortable yes to each one, then time to downsize. #1, can you XXX, #2, have you XXX? #3, are you comfortable XXX?"

By having a "test", you eliminate the false sense of skillset "I have raced my motorcycle all my life" arguments. Maybe they are ready early, maybe not?

4. In the real world skydiviers are the opposite of on DZ.com. They watch their friends and stay shy and simply speak behind their friend's back "they are going to hurt themselves". I have seen so much backstabbing and behind the back comments instead of a single well delivered message to the interested party.

5. In the real world, skydivers who are slightly less shy than the norm still deliver it wrong, by either using sarcasm, insults, joking, or hints. Or, they do it publicly in front of the whole local crowd in order to boost their own ego or feel superior like school yard bullies.

When I have brought up these concerns in a few other threads online, many skydivers replied, "skydivers are adults, there is no reason to sugar coat anything" - or in the case of a young skydiver, "he needs to act like an adult, until then I am not changing my ways."

These excuses have been used to justify terrible presentation and delivery of messages.

Let's say you were a VP of Business Development pitching a new idea to an investor, an adult... Would you say:

"You would be an a$$hat idiot not to buy my idea. I have been in business longer than you, you need to trust me. Write me the check now"...

Is that how adults "sell" an idea? No, they sit down, give a full presentation, share ideas, allow questions to be asked, etc.

Why is skydiving different? Why do we call people "you are an idiot if you..." and expect them to buy the message - then use the "you are an adult able to make decisions" as an excuse when the delivery does not work? HINT: Adults are emotional and egotistical too, so sometimes message delivery has to be modified to the person that needs to hear it.

Recap

When someone wants to downsize or swoop, give SOLUTIONS not RESTRICTIONS. "Hey, I see you want to swoop more and downsize. Do you want help getting to your goals? We can learn together, and practice together. I have been getting coaching from XXX, and we can spend a day sharing his fee." or "Do you want to swoop. That is cool. How about we go to XXX DZ next week and watch the competition, and I will buy dinner if we can go out with one of the pros and pick their mind around the bar or bonfire."

Real World Example.

Someone I learned to respect a lot (who since passed away because of an incident very similar to things we should learn from this incident) did it right when he had a message for me... He thought I was doing something a bit risky. He DID NOT come to me, but instead found someone I respected a lot, who came to me and said, "a birdie whispered in my ear that he is concerned..." I paid attention and begged to know who the birdie was. I thanked both the messenger and the birdie because the message was appropriate, and the delivery was exceptional - done like ADULTS do it.

[chuckbrown 0]

The problem here was that Ted thought he was different and that the warnings others were giving didn't apply to him because he excelled at everything he did. A lot of people tried to help him.

The only lesson here is that if you don't respect the dangers of this sport and apply good risk assessment skills, you're gonna pay.

Re-reading the original thread with the benefit of hindsight is really sad.

[Dean358 0]

Very well said tdog, thanks.

[speedy 0]

I think you just summed up all the problems of trying to learn from the internet.

We should not forget that between the thread showing ego and limited understanding and the accident, two years had passed. That for me is 800 jumps 2 years more experience.

Also, I find it odd that the very people that said he would not last, qualified it by saying "I was also just like you".

Does that not make you think?

These forums serve very well as warnings to those that push too early, but in the end you will still have to make thousands of jumps to realize how little you know and how fragile you are.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[grimmie 173]

"You can always tell a skydiver...but you can't tell them much"

me-2007, just after friend #20 bounced...

[diablopilot 2]

Act like a spoiled child, expect to be treated like one, act like an adult......

When one goes out of their way to offer information and help, and is then ostracized for it by a "know it all" simply because said help isn't solicited, what should they do? Give up? That's a nice idea, except when someone then dies there is still a black mark on the sport.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[tdog 0]

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Act like a spoiled child, expect to be treated like one, act like an adult......

I guessed you missed the point of my post... A spoiled child is not going to respond to a message delivered in the wrong way. If you really care about the message you are delivering, the way you deliver it has to transcend the maturity of the other party.

Quote

When one goes out of their way to offer information and help, and is then ostracized for it by a "know it all" simply because said help isn't solicited, what should they do? Give up?

No... The second the other side starts to get defensive - you need to realize the way you attempted to deliver the message, even if it was meant well, and even if you did not see it as being confrontational, is not being accepted. This is the time to go back to step one and reinvent how you are delivering the message.

Sometimes you have to sell your idea so the buying party thinks it was their own. Normally this does not happen by being negative and confrontational, but instead motivational and supporting in the right direction.

[billvon 2,396]

> Act like a spoiled child, expect to be treated like one, act like an adult......

I think more experienced jumpers/instructors have an obligation to act like an adult even with jumpers who act less mature. Instructors often have to deal with people like this, and have gotten fairly good at it.

Also keep in mind that on the net, new jumpers come across as "spoiled children" as often as experienced jumpers come across as "insufferable pompous know-it-alls" - even if both of them are quite reasonable in person.

[diablopilot 2]

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"insufferable pompous know-it-alls"

HEY!

I resemble that remark!

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[wmw999 2,121]

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Act like a spoiled child, expect to be treated like one, act like an adult......

When one goes out of their way to offer information and help, and is then ostracized for it by a "know it all" simply because said help isn't solicited, what should they do? Give up?

No, you try a different approach. People respond to different approaches, and one that gives them a feeling of control (even if it's an illusion) is more likely to end up with the desired end result.

The desired end result is for them to adopt a more intelligent path towards their goals. It's not for them to acknowledge that their friends caught them being stupid.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

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The desired end result is for them to adopt a more intelligent path towards their goals. It's not for them to acknowledge that their friends caught them being stupid.

Interesting theory - it's about the 'student' learning something, not about the 'teacher' getting a pat on the back.

imagine that

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[AFFI 0]

Quote

Quote

The desired end result is for them to adopt a more intelligent path towards their goals. It's not for them to acknowledge that their friends caught them being stupid.

Interesting theory - it's about the 'student' learning something, not about the 'teacher' getting a pat on the back.

imagine that

where did the instructor getting a "pat on the back"come from?

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

Quote

Quote

The desired end result is for them to adopt a more intelligent path towards their goals. It's not for them to acknowledge that their friends caught them being stupid.

Interesting theory - it's about the 'student' learning something, not about the 'teacher' getting a pat on the back.

imagine that

where did the instructor getting a "pat on the back"come from?

It came from 4 of the 5 previous posts


I'm not talking about Instructors in general. "teacher" equal DZ.com poster with the "you are an idiot" type of advice. It serves no one but himself. Tdog's post was dead on - first part in training someone is to get them to listen.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[lawrocket 3]

I think tcnelson's death is but a prime example of how deaths CAN be prevented in some, but not in all persons with a given subject.

I know I'm moving into speaker's corner territroy here, but too often I hear people comment about the need for people to be educated about the risks of smoking, drugs, alcohol, sex. etc. The education works on a few people - I know this from experience. But in many others it is lost because they believe that it cannot happen to them. No matter what, they just ain't gonna buy it.

Bill - you yourself have suggested that perhaps the best way to save a person like tcnelson's life and have that person skydiving is that the person breaks a femur. A big ouch that heals nicely. People will usually get the point.

I believe that your approach, unfortunately, is THE best approach to use on those who will not heed warnings. "Well, I'm not saying that I hope you don't get hurt. Because the choice is whether you get hurt or killed. One will happen, and if I had to choose, yeah, I hope you just femur in. You'll live and you'll get the point, and you'll heal just fine. Then you can buy beer for everyone explaining how the injury happened and how it could have been prevented."

Unfortunately, tcnelson didn't just break himself.

For future prevention, say what you can. If they don't listen, then see whether the person can get grounded or wish them a broken femur.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[dharma1976 0]

broken fib did wonders for my teachability

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[pirana 0]

Quote

Let's say you were a VP of Business Development pitching a new idea to an investor, an adult... Would you say:

"You would be an a$$hat idiot not to buy my idea. I have been in business longer than you, you need to trust me. Write me the check now"...

Is that how adults "sell" an idea? No, they sit down, give a full presentation, share ideas, allow questions to be asked, etc.

Why is skydiving different?

I agree in general about doing what you have to do to make it a genuine 2-way conversation for it to be truly effective. However, there is sometimes bound to be a different tone because of the consequence of error. In the example given, pehaps a sale is lost. In this sport, even what might appear at first to be a minor mistake can be fatal.

I've been on the receiving end of some harsh words, and they did serve to get my attention. Thankfully, we also had some good follow-up where everyone engaged and there was much learning.

What worries me most is the person who's ego will not allow them to admit error and get coaching. They make a very obvious mistake and regardless of the experience or authority level of the coaching, hang on to their denial. Maybe that is when the gloves have to come off and they need to hear the "You fucking idiot" approach.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[kkeenan 13]

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I... or wish them a broken femur.

So, telling someone to, "Break a leg", is really a good thing.

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?