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Lazarus_762

n00b question, Side pack vs PRO pack

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was watching Pack like a PRO...have not tried packing yet, we'll get to that later, but it looks like the side pack method would be easier, and it is supposed to be a reliable method that produces good opens, so why don't more people use it?

Airtwardo:"There is a bit of difference between a rigger with a nipper and a guy with 138 jumps and a swiss army knife...usually!"

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a) Being a noob to skydiving is no excuse for being too damn lazy to do a SEARCH
b) Flat packing is an older method that works better for F111 canopies or larger wings (Tandem/Student).
c) Flat packing takes up significantly more space and usually will result in people bitching (and righfully so).

d) if you would have done a search, these are the relevant results you would come up with :

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=38060
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2727408

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was watching Pack like a PRO...have not tried packing yet, we'll get to that later, but it looks like the side pack method would be easier, and it is supposed to be a reliable method that produces good opens, so why don't more people use it?



There are various versions, often called the same thing when they are not the same thing. A roll pack is different than a flat pack, but they are often used interchangeably. There is also the factory pack, which is definitely not a roll pack, is often the same as what people mean when they say flat pack, and is very often how reserves are packed.

ZP canopies are difficult to handle with these packing methods
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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A good rule of thumb is to watch how the more experienced people handle their gear. If you don't see many people flat packing, that's a clue. Watch the packers. Later, offer beer or some cash to someone who is both good at packing and good at teaching. They may or may not accept anything for it but it is good form. The next step is to start packing at home in your living room over and over. You'll figure out your sticking points. Then do it under adult supervision.

Also, rely less on the internet and more on local talent to get you where you need to be with your learning.




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was watching Pack like a PRO...have not tried packing yet, we'll get to that later, but it looks like the side pack method would be easier, and it is supposed to be a reliable method that produces good opens, so why don't more people use it?

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It is also good to realize that what used to be called a factory pack gives much the same result as a propack, except in varying degrees that the tail is wrapped around, and the degree to which the folds between the line groups are separated to the respective sides.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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one of those threads is 11 years old, the other is 5 years old...I was looking for current opinions about current practices...thank you so much for your cheerful help. have a nice day.

Airtwardo:"There is a bit of difference between a rigger with a nipper and a guy with 138 jumps and a swiss army knife...usually!"

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was watching Pack like a PRO...have not tried packing yet, we'll get to that later, but it looks like the side pack method would be easier, and it is supposed to be a reliable method that produces good opens, so why don't more people use it?



Why do you say it "looks easier"?

Pro-packing is simpler, faster and less effort (easier).
Depending on your personal technique, it can be as simple as count the nose out, give it a good, solid shake and then wrap the tail (yes, I know people who do this).
Personally I flake all three "gaps", but I know people who only do the first two and leave the C-D untouched.

It's a lot less work than crawling around on the floor.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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Flat packing allows you to have an easier control to keep lines centered while PRO packing is a symetrical way of packing. Both methods are OK. The advantage of the PRO pack is that it takes less room. For many years I have been packing main and reserve flat pack. Since 2003 I use the PRO packing for both.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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sitting on the couch with an adult beverage in my hand, the side packing looked easier and more straight-forward...apparently looks can be deceiving. Having never had the opportunity to try my hand at packing, I was just wondering what experienced packers thought about the 2 methods. The general consensus seems to be just as you say, PRO is easier, faster, simpler...when I start learning how to pack, I'm sure I'll understand better. Thanks for your help, I appreciate it. :)

Airtwardo:"There is a bit of difference between a rigger with a nipper and a guy with 138 jumps and a swiss army knife...usually!"

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If you want to do PRO packing, use first a hook to hold the canopy lines high and the canopy hanging free. That way you do the flaking being in front of the canopy (opposite to the container) and have a better view of what you are doing. Have somebody to teach you for few packings and who knows the purpose of each step and can explain it. When used to it and comfortable, transfer if you want on holding the lines on your shoulder.
There is so many people who are packing without knowing what they are doing and why. They cannot be blamed since they just got bad teaching without explanation. Just the type DO AS I SHOW YOU.
Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

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was watching Pack like a PRO...have not tried packing yet, we'll get to that later, but it looks like the side pack method would be easier, and it is supposed to be a reliable method that produces good opens, so why don't more people use it?



Because it is no longer "cool".

Here is some info:
http://www.pcprg.com/packing.htm

I know, the pictures are poor. I have been meaning to take better ones for a long time now.

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I had some army SF guys that only knew how to flat pack ask me if I would pack for them one day and they mentioned they did not like the flat pack because it opened with a 90 degree off heading opening because of the way the canopy was placed in the bag. I never flat packed before and was wondering if there was any truth to that statement?

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I had some army SF guys that only knew how to flat pack ask me if I would pack for them one day and they mentioned they did not like the flat pack because it opened with a 90 degree off heading opening because of the way the canopy was placed in the bag. I never flat packed before and was wondering if there was any truth to that statement?



No. Just before the canopy goes in the bag, the nose is down, the tail is on top. If you run the lines at that point, they're as straight as in a pro-pack, no 90-degree twists.

Mark

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I had some army SF guys that only knew how to flat pack ask me if I would pack for them one day and they mentioned they did not like the flat pack because it opened with a 90 degree off heading opening because of the way the canopy was placed in the bag. I never flat packed before and was wondering if there was any truth to that statement?



No. Just before the canopy goes in the bag, the nose is down, the tail is on top. If you run the lines at that point, they're as straight as in a pro-pack, no 90-degree twists.

Mark



Thanks Mark.

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What is most interesting about your question is that it is about organizing the canopy rather than bagging the canopy. The vast majority of discussions here about packing seem to be about bagging the canopy: Folding all and bagging, OR folding top and bagging it then stuffing bottom, OR folding bottom and bagging it then stuffing top, OR Psycho/Precision pacing (rolling), OR Wolmari. These discussions of "how to get it in the bag" almost always include the following link:

http://www.precision.aero/packing/mvc-002v.mpg

P.S. The reason that you are asking about organizing and not bagging is that you haven't tried to pack yet. Bagging is what often drives noobs to tears... not organizing the canopy. There is nothing quite like struggling in the heat for 10 minutes to get the canopy in the bag without success.
The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others!

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I am a flat packer. I have never had a cutaway. Coincidence? I think not.



Think again. I'm a Pro packer, and have packed every one of my own jumps plus another 1000+ pack jobs for others, and I have never had or packed a cutaway.

It's the packer, not the type of pack job that makes the difference. Flat pack, roll pack, pro pack, or psycho pack have all been used successfully for countless numbers of jumps, if done properly they are all reliable pack jobs.

Proper gear maintenance and assembly is the other factor in preventing malfunctions. Keep gear in-spec and using it as it was designed will go a long way towards preventing malfunctions.

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I had some army SF guys that only knew how to flat pack ask me if I would pack for them one day and they mentioned they did not like the flat pack because it opened with a 90 degree off heading opening because of the way the canopy was placed in the bag. I never flat packed before and was wondering if there was any truth to that statement?



No. Just before the canopy goes in the bag, the nose is down, the tail is on top. If you run the lines at that point, they're as straight as in a pro-pack, no 90-degree twists.

Mark



Back when Mighty Macs were tandem mains and TI's packed for themselves...we'd flat pack them like we use to do with big accuracy canopies.

Grab the packing tabs an shake it straight, roll the nose then 'flop' the front and back inward toward the center, in bag width folds pulling the slider up right before the last flop. Then S fold the stack into the bag, band up the lines and done.

No cocooning the tail, THAT method of 'flat packing' would almost always give you a 90 on opening...but it was quick to do, and always gave slow openings.

325 Mighty Mac with a split bag and you could be closing the tandem rig in less than 5 minutes.

I use to see a lot of accuri guys pack that way and I think the Knights did too for a while back in the 80's...I think it may have worn the line sets out quicker than the 'standard' method, at least it seemed to.

Also...back when parachutes were rectangular and large 'Psycho Packing' was a little different.
Similar to the above description except instead of the flop-fold you would just roll the rose & tail to the center, no bag just a single stow 'frap-strap' holding it together. Coil the lined in the pack tray and S fold the rolled up canopy on top...3 minutes tops!

If ya were 1st out of the Beech and hummed it down, you could be packed up at the Peas before the last group landed! B|










~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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It's the packer, not the type of pack job that makes the difference.

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When the Excalibur first came out the manual required PRO packing, which no one was doing at my DZ.

Tough learning it from the little 3 inch B&W pics, I packed several line-overs until somebody at the Nationals showed me 'pull the stabilizers OUTSIDE the lines' :o :S


...Only cutaways I've had since then were a split top-skin and a broken riser.











~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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b) Flat packing is an older method that works better for F111 canopies or larger wings (Tandem/Student).
c) Flat packing takes up significantly more space and usually will result in people bitching (and righfully so).
reply]

As one who flat packed for 1/2 my time in the sport (22 years), I'd agree with b/c above.

For me, flat packing was much easier to see, step-by-step what was going on and where everything was at... Worked very well for F-111 (more porus fabric) and, if done correctly* ended up with the same configuration on the floor as PRO packing prior to putting it in the bag.

*if you use the technique that splits each cell set as you make the stack... not how I was taught, but can be done... most folks I knew didn't do that, but they got good results anyway.

Personally I found that PRO packing was the easier technique when dealing with ZP canopies (at least up to Tandems where I found either worked well).

Some tips that may help learning either technique, but especially with PRO packing (if you have the option)...

1 - get a canopy that has different colored cells. Ideally no two cells the same color next to each other.

2 - best option - center cell a unique color

3 - mark the line attach tabs with the line letter**. ('A' for the A line attach points... etc...) remember there will be the same number as cells +1.

**Talk to YOUR rigger before marking anything on a canopy. Both to make sure its not distructive, and second to make sure you mark them correctly.

4 - you can learn/practice on a canopy that helps you see what's going on (as described above) even if its not the one you're going to jump. Start learning when you're not itching to jump. Use a canopy that's easy to see, take your time, ask questions, verify your work with an instructor or rigger. THEN move on to the gear you're thinking of jumping.

Just my $.02.

JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

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was watching Pack like a PRO...have not tried packing yet, we'll get to that later, but it looks like the side pack method would be easier, and it is supposed to be a reliable method that produces good opens, so why don't more people use it?



It takes 2-3X as much floor space which will make you unpopular at the dropzone or have you packing outside where it's hot and the sun will reduce your canopy life.

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I am a flat packer. I have never had a cutaway. Coincidence? I think not. ;)



I used to think that flat packing (the version that used to be called factory pack) was immune from a line over. Then I had a line over. Now that I have an all ZP canopy, a factory pack is not practical.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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