Very interesting article

[flyingferret 0]

Actually, yes I happen to think that conservative feel very strongly about personal responsibility.

I said that because, we have gone from arguing about gun control to, data with a lot of mays in it, to arguing about the responsibilities associated with a sign.

That was the only common thread I could find.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[wmw999 2,116]

I think you'll find it in the inference we should be taking that a conservative store owner would make darn good and sure he or she researched all possible laws before posting a sign in their store.
Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jfields 0]

I don't see it as any kind of conservative/liberal division.

I see lots of very frustrating dodging of responsibility in the whole gun ownership discussion. There is a lot of very oily, sleazy evasion of personal responsibility. I also see a lot of blame put on innocent people that got murdered, which I find to be a pathetic evasion of personal responsibility.

To me, it isn't along political lines. Some people on the opposite side of this issue from me are very cognizant of their responsibilities. So are many people on the moderate and liberal sides. There are just particular people throughout the spectrum that try to evade the consequences of their actions.

As for the sign issue, I'm nitpicking adjectives, not saying the wrong sign (got that, Dave?) should be binding. Since Dave won't agree with me anyway, I'm just using it as a method of driving up my postwhoring numbers.

[AggieDave 6]

Intention doesn't render an item a fake, intention allows for the party to be held in the view that he/she is malicious. I thought that was pretty obvious from my previous explainations.

How I knew he was doing it on purpose and was thus malicious with his intent was through the conversation I had.


Another "fun" experience was at the mall here in College Station, I was outside of the mall, saw one of the rent-a-cops and noticed the fake sign on the doors. I asked her what that meant, she said it meant that no one could carry a handgun into the mall. I asked if that meant that CHLs couldn't carry either (I of course knew the answers). She said that especially meant CHLs couldn't carry (how she came to that conclusion, I don't know). I spent a few minutes explaining the actual law to her and what their sign actually meant. I had in no way shown any sign that I was armed or said I was armed, but she threatened to call the police on me. I had to go on to explain to her that even if they had the correct sign up on the door, I could be armed all day long in the parking lot if I wanted to be (according to Texas State law a parking lot or even a parking garage is not considered to be on premise when in reference to the concealed handgun laws). She got even more upset and once again threatened to call the police (she still had no reason to do so). So with that I told her that she had offended me and that I was going to the management's office, which I did. I told them what had happened and they apologized for the guard, then basically they said that the signs they had would stay, although they did know the actual law. They didn't seem to care and with that I told them that the majority of CHLs I know tend to boycott establishments with the fake signs. They stated they didn't really care, I wished them a good day and left.

When possible I stay away from the mall now, as part of my boycott, but being the only mall in the area (except for driving to Houston), I still have to go sometimes, unfortunately.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AggieDave 6]

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As for the sign issue, I'm nitpicking adjectives, not saying the wrong sign (got that, Dave?) should be binding. Since Dave won't agree with me anyway, I'm just using it as a method of driving up my postwhoring numbers.

Well, we've discussed this issue on more then a number of occasions. Its fun to hash these things out with you, and although I know that your beliefs, however wrong, are set in stone... But I'm also hoping that someone who isn't educated on the sides of the argument will see both sides and make an educated decision, instead of blindly following the liberal media.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jfields 0]

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I know that your beliefs, however wrong, are set in stone...

I couldn't have expressed it any better myself. We agree on that.

[jfields 0]

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instead of blindly following the liberal media.

or worse, the NRA.

[dave610 0]

"YOU CAN HAVE MY GUNS WHEN YOU PRY THEM FROM MY COLD DEAD HAND!" Charlton Heston

[billvon 2,384]

>If they are unwilling to listen to reason and post lawful signs, then
> they are fake and they know that they are fake.

Hmm. If you saw a sign that said "no smoking please" but it did not meet the state requirements for signage in restaraunts, would you fire up? Would it bother you if someone else did (if you're a nonsmoker) given that the sign was 'fake'?

[flyingferret 0]

And the show has reached a new low

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[AggieDave 6]

Since smoking will at some point in my life, possibly save my life from a mugger/perp/whatever...

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[wmw999 2,116]

Actually, I thought it was a pretty good question. Is there a difference between a "no smoking" (or "handicapped parking" or whatever) sign and a "no guns" sign? I'm assuming there are legalities etc. associated with all of them.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[mnischalke 0]

Justin, what do you actually know about the NRA? What you learn from the liberal media? or what your anti-gun groups tell you? Or do you just like slamming organizations comprised of 4-million Americans because it suits your argument?

mike

Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills.

[PhillyKev 0]

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>If they are unwilling to listen to reason and post lawful signs, then
> they are fake and they know that they are fake.

Hmm. If you saw a sign that said "no smoking please" but it did not meet the state requirements for signage in restaraunts, would you fire up? Would it bother you if someone else did (if you're a nonsmoker) given that the sign was 'fake'?

Not, sure...when was the right to smoke added to the constitution?

[billvon 2,384]

>Since smoking will at some point in my life, possibly save my life
> from a mugger/perp/whatever...

I'm more interested in your take on what the sign represents. In these cases (the substandard no-guns, no-smoking, even handicapped-parking-only signs) the intent is clear but the sign is substandard. Do you believe that you should not be required to understand the message? Or that the message is invalid if delivered in that way? Or that you simply don't have to comply with signs that are clear but not 'legal'?

I've got no issue whatsoever with you avoiding any store you choose, I'm just interested in how you interpret the owner's request to not bring a gun in.

[flyingferret 0]

You have to pick your battles, and some things just are not that important.ie smoking vs. guns. It is only justified that it requires very specific things to limit a right like free speech or bearing arms. Smoking harldy compares. But for the sake of nice, I will answer.

IF I did smoke, I would either inform the owner of the incorrect signage or light up, depending on the severity of the inaccuracy of the sign. If they refused to correct the issue, I would go elsewhere in the future. IF I did not smoke and someone did light up, I would do the exact same thing. But for different reasons than you think. Not because I am hard nose legalist. But because the customer is always right. If I informed them of an error and they would rather argue then listen, I will take my business elsewhere. That applies to most things, so I hardly think it affects the gun issue, but at least now you know my thoughts.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[flyingferret 0]

By the way, the reason why this meets with such resistance is this: After CHL was passed, many businesses started slapping up stickers all over the placesimply because they heard about the law and thought that people should not carry anywhere. Before long you had a lot of stickers that were totally incorrect business simply trying to keep CHLs from leaving the car. However, very soon, merchants found out how many people this entailed, and some merchants like Luby's very openly have no problem with CHLs for obvious safety reasons. Due to the initial reaction, a lot of CHL holders were faced with incorrect stickers almost every where they went.

--
All the flaming and trolls of wreck dot with a pretty GUI.

[billvon 2,384]

>IF I did smoke, I would either inform the owner of the incorrect
>signage or light up, depending on the severity of the inaccuracy of
> the sign. If they refused to correct the issue, I would go elsewhere
> in the future.

OK, but bit of a difference there. Everyone can see and smell you smoking. If you carried a gun into a place that clearly did not want them there, but had incorrect signage, would you inform the owner that you indeed carried a gun, or would you just do it as long as you could get away with it?

>You have to pick your battles, and some things just are not that
> important.ie smoking vs. guns. It is only justified that it requires
> very specific things to limit a right like free speech or bearing arms.

Interesting point! So is it your claim that a store that does not want you to carry a gun in the store is infringing on your second amendment rights, as opposed to just being bad sign makers?

[airtwardo 6]

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I didn't miss it. I just hadn't gotten to responding....

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I clearly said they were illustrative, and not factual.

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But you are using an illustration clearly designed to give your point a falsely positive slant.
Using those parameters I could just as easily say to illustrate My point, 99.9% of all criminals mean to do you harm.
I understand the point you were trying to make, but without actual factual data...it's a moot point.


***I'll reiterate my point about not being able to tell which of your contrived categories a given criminal may fall into. They don't often wear tee-shirts identifying the limit of their criminal intent

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I agree with you. The inability to differentiate leads one to play the odds for survival, which favor passivity over armed response.

I guess that's true to an extent, if you have a passive personality...
But even then, what would you do if believed in your heart that you were about to die?

***I'm sorry that happened to you. Without delving too far into the NRA's actions that increased the odds of that criminal having a gun to point at your head, what did you do? How did you use a handgun to get out of the situation?

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I'll ignore the obviously bias and incorrect blanket statement concerning the NRA...that's for another discussion.
In brief, I returned to my apartment with my girlfriend after an evening out...after getting somewhat settled in the living room we discovered that we had interrupted two men in the process of burglarizing my possessions... They pointed a gun at us, took us to a back bedroom demanding more than they had already found. Phone lines were ripped out, front door blocked (only exit) and through the course of 20-30 minutes beat me and began a sexual assault on my lady friend.
These boys were high on drugs and the fear their 'power' was generating. The situation was deteriorating rapidly.
I ended the confrontation by recovering my stored/hidden handgun and using it.
...Though our lives were saved, I'm forever a changed person. I was with that woman a few years, but after that we soon ended our relationship.
There were lawers...counseling...problems at work and the neighborhood...the list is endless.
I sleep at night, given the same situation I'd react the same way.
You can speculate forever as to how you would have handled things, or comfort yourself with thoughts that because of who/what/where you are, something of that nature will never happen...
I now understand that it can and it does, and if you find yourself at the point of "last option" ask yourself the question; Will you fight, or Will you die.
We all know our own answer...that is if you are in fact a realist.

A gun in the home made occupants three times more likely to be the victims of homicide and five times more likely to be a suicide statistic than occupants of gun-free homes

And these figures are from where?
We all know stats. are manipulated to show the position the person using them wants them to.
A firearm is a tool, granted a quick and often irreversible tool...but tool just the same as a knife, spoon, toothbrush. It makes a job easier...
If your task is suicide...you will find a way, gun or not. If they kill themselves...fuck'em they're weak anyway...






***The key part of that one is how much higher the fatality rate is for firearms versus everything else combined. That tends to refute the argument that the weapon doesn't matter and criminals will kill you with something else. They might try, but statistically, you stand a better chance if attacked by something other than a firearm.

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Again it's a quick tool...
And I don't hold with "They 'MIGHT' try"...
And statistically... I won't play odds when attacked.
***should you ever actually find yourself " in the game "

One of the largest decisions is not to put myself into the game. I do that by lots of personal choices. My personal security money is better spent on household illumination and good locks than on guns. They are more effective means of helping my odds of survival.

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They're also a great help to the cops when they investigate the crime scene...
***Even if my house were broken into and I were confronted by burglars, I can still contribute to my survival and that of my family by not escalating the confrontation by pulling a firearm.

Again...until you find yourself down to 'no options'

***
We went over this in a gun thread long ago. I still believe that the most potent weapon I have, and my strongest means of self defense is my brain, not a firearm. Acting reasonably and using my brain to minimize my risk gives me a better chance of survival than getting a sense of bravado from a firearm that will likely get me killed.

If you are the type of person that believes a firearm gives them 'bravado 'then I agree with your decision not to own one...I certainly feel better that you don't.
Justin, you give a strong, well thought out and obviously educated argument for your belief in this matter. Far be it from anyone here to tell you what you think is incorrect. My beliefs are of equal importance to me. And since I wish to utilize a right guaranteed me...let me do so without judgment!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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[kallend 1,621]

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Well, I got one for you Sedum Hussein well resurrect general Jon Wayne,
put together a very simple plan...you and the duke will be one on one
and he'll kick your ass as if you were a man.

Can you explain that, in English?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,621]

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A LOT of the cops (like 99% of the DPS, local and sheriff) I've talked to, love the CHL program in Texas and have respect for CHL holders. They think that the program is doing a lot of good in Texas and that the good citizens are helping bring crime rates down

That is because most Cops know what requirements exist to get a CHL. They know that most CHL carriers are honest law abiding people.
I dont have my CHL, YET, but my roomate has gotten let go by almost every cop that pulls him over, because he shows his CHL to them as soon first thing, as you are required. They respect that.

Why are so many cops pulling over this honest law-abiding CHL holder in the first place, enquiring minds want to know?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,621]

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I am beginning to think that perhaps the biggest difference between conservatives of varying degrees and other people is the belief that you are supremely responsible for your actions.

In that case, why are so many "conservatives" insistent that a pregnant woman cannot be responsible for her own actions, but must be told what she can and cannot do with her own body by the state? Why are so many "conservatives" insistent that there are certain substances that I may not put in my own body, instead of leaving the decision up to me?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[AggieDave 6]

Bill,

I would do what I've said I've done in previous posts, although I'm not sure if you've read them. Basically, I talk to the owner/manager about the signage, but I don't tell them that I'm carrying, if I'm carrying, since it is non of their business to know if I am or not. By law it is none of their business to know if I'm carrying in their establishment or not, the only time it IS their business to know, is if they have the proper signage up.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AggieDave 6]

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Can you explain that, in English?

Its my sig line, taken from a lyric. Go see my "If I was Presient" thread to read the lyrics, they're fairly funny.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[AggieDave 6]

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Why are so many cops pulling over this honest law-abiding CHL holder in the first place, enquiring minds want to know?

Lets see, I was pulled over 2 months ago because a tail light had burned out and I didn't know it. That was an in training cop with an instructor with him, learning the ropes. As the new cop was trying to be a hard ass, I was standing outside of my truck talking to the old cop (turns out he trained a friend of mine from the Corps of Cadets, when he was at the police academy) and we chatted about muzzle velocities between .40S&W and 9mm ammo. All in all, not a bad experience, since I got to talk "shop" with a nice cop and learn something was wrong with my truck so I could fix it.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."