AFF cost $2400....bueno o no?!

[brentcair 0]

Wow, 20 jumps for 500.00 with a coach comes out to 12.00 for each jump ticket. How do they even pay for gear and give the coach anything. They are using coaches after the fifth s/l.

[wildfan75 1]

Coaches don't get paid (and we really don't have coaches. Jamie just got her coach rating but it was so she could get her S/L instructor rating). We all donate our time to keep costs down. I manifest, clean and pack student rigs as my share and when I finally get an instructor rating, I'll be helping and jumping with new students on my dime. It's called paying it forward.

I never jumped alone (maybe once or twice when I went up as a 4th on a tandem with video load, but it was my choice). Otherwise you're jumping with (obviously) at least one instructor.

The only people that get paid are the S/L class instructor (I think he gets like $5-10 a person if that) and jump masters for S/L students ($5 a jumper so if they take a load of three S/L students, they get like $5 ($15 for jumpmastering minus their $9-10 jump ticket).

I can't believe that people can understand and accept that it's normal to pay thousands of dollars for 10 jumps but can't understand and don't believe me when I say that it doesn't have to be that way. It's sad really.

If I had to pay a couple of grand to get through AFF I probably would have went back to playing hockey instead.

I thank God everyday that I found Wissota. And I want to be sure that everyone knows about it so they can benefit from it to and we don't have to keep having threads with titles like, "Why are USPA numbers down?" Obviously answer---because no one can afford it anymore!

[brentcair 0]

Hey Lynn,
I've been training skydivers for 15 years, much of it for free. So I understand paying it forward. I wish we could all find a way to make it this cheap and still maintain quality.
So, if you dont have coaches on jumps 6-25 are there s/l instructors doing their freefall training for free? What type of a/c is the dz flying? Just trying to figure out how they can do this, might be useful if I decide to open up my own.

[Andy9o8 0]

Much like a wise prophet, you speak The Truth; but I fear you won't get listened to much industry-wide. Why not? For the same reason that SL or IAD DZ's are so few and far between these days, at least in the USA.
Hint: you'll notice that "prophet" and "profit" sound alike.

[wildfan75 1]

You are jumping with s/l and aff certified instructors and yes, they are doing it for free.

We have 3 182s. And before you sign on the dotted line to open up a dz, the owner of the planes (whose also a lifetime skydiver) is digging deep into his own pockets to help pay for 2 new engines. So unless you have a good paying full time job, probably not going to work.

Oh, and just to clarify. The 20 jump package is not a "camp". You purchase 20 jumps and go at your own pace. We don't have staff or resources to be open 7 or even 5 days a week to do "camps".

Edited to add: If Bob would have raised jump ticket prices to cover the new engines, no one would have said boo (well, we probably would have grumbled a little, but we'd completely understand and not have an issue with it).

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I can't believe that people can understand and accept that it's normal to pay thousands of dollars for 10 jumps but can't understand and don't believe me when I say that it doesn't have to be that way. It's sad really.

It's not sad. It's the difference between a non profit club system and a for profit commercial enterprise. It's also the difference between an urban metropolis where everything is substantially more expensive and a rural area. You could probably live in a pretty nice place for the rent I pay for my apartment.

Sport clubs are great - low costs, high personal involvement, usually very friendly to newcomers.

Likewise, King Airs that go 15-24k are also great, as are pairs of Twin Otters taking off every 10 minutes. But those have a substantial cost to them that is hard for a club to afford. With the issues with airport access, someday it may be very good that the Conastairs own the land at Perris.

[Just_Chute_me 0]

As a member of Seven Hills and having completed my student training there last fall I can tell you exactly how much I spent to get my A lic. I did it in 34 jumps (I'm not a prodigy ) and spent $1820 to do it. I was provided instruction and coaching every step of the way and it was great.

I am now a club member (we pay dues) we recently voted to raise rates to help us cover costs of running the DZ. (We are non-profit) We have 2 182s to maintain as well as a club house and gear.
Currently a First Jump course is $150 with a special for April and May classes of $99. After you complete your first class is is $45 for each jump up to 10 sec delays. THe cost then goes to $55 for each jump to 45sec. The cost includes a gear and instructor time.
As a new jumper I would not want it any other way. I may be biased but I think Seven Hills instructors have a great attitude and want to see their students succeed.

Just my 2.38 cents (inflation)

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups"

[lvenojump 0]

Quote

Errr...boating? I give you six months or less in the sport before the boat is for sale.

Have fun!!!

TOTALLY!!!! A great man I know once told me (before I shucked the whuffo title and started jumping) that skydiving costs you $300 dollars your first jump and half your money the rest of your life!!!!

[

"My soul is in the sky" - Shakespeare

[Ganza 0]

Here in Brazil, i payed R$3200 , about US$1400

[napaguy99 0]

25 SL progression jumps from a 182 vs 25 AFF progression jumps from a turbine does not even compare. While I'm sure your dropzone (your dropzone being the DZ of who ever is reading this) has awesome instruction during all of those SL jumps, I just don't see how your skydiving skills could compare to those of someone from AFF.

I'll put it this way: if I as a fun jumper am going to spend 20 some dollars on a jump ticket I'm somewhat picky about who I'm going to jump with. I'll take the guy with 50 jumps who went through AFF over the guy with 150 jumps who went through SL any day.

Sure, USPA says 25 jumps = A license. But I just have to disagree with the statement that 25 jumps = 25 jumps no matter what method. You think SL is cheaper than AFF in the long run? I highly disagree. You're going to spend more money doing solos or working on your abilities in order to get up to snuff to have a worth while jump.

Like Freeflygoat said "Static Line progression was great in 1978. Does it work? Yes. Is AFF a better training program? Absolutely!"

Get with the times.

"Let the misinterpretation and attacks begin."

[grue 1]

Yeah, well, AFF isn't exactly a godsend when you have to struggle to pay for it.

I got my licence for under a thousand bucks, and frankly, I think your view is incredibly closed minded and fairly ignorant to be honest. The AFF babies might have a bit more freefall skill coming right out of the gate, but on the same note I bet the static line student is better at spotting (almost for sure) and canopy skills (in my experience).

There are people in this sport that are more naturally adept than others, and it doesn't matter what training method they use, and if you honestly think that the average static line kid with 150 jumps isn't going to outfly the average 50 jump aff kid? You're deluding yourself.

Me? I'm not a snob, I'll jump with someone no matter what method of training they used, because I'm able to recognize the fact that not everyone has access to the money or facilities to go through AFF.

And if I HAD to decide? I'd jump with the static line guy. There's less chance of him being an elitist.

cavete terrae.

[grue 1]

I paid $871 for my licence, including USPA fees.

If my dropzone didn't have static line, I wouldn't be jumping today.

cavete terrae.

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

...I bet the static line student is better at spotting and canopy skills.

Help me out here...assume I'm brain dead this morning.

Spotting:
More to do with the plane than the program. Cessna? Of course! Few people in the plane. Opportunity to actually practice the theory you learned on the ground as opposed to a larger plane with many jumpers where students are typically the last ones out and don't get the opportunities to really practice spotting.

Canopy control:
Has to do with pull altitude. What altitude were you under canopy in the S/L program? AFF typically is 5000 ft give or take 500 or so.

So, my take is that spotting is better learned out of small plane and AFF is better overall because you get freefall time AND canopy time.

Not good that spotting is becoming a lost art because of GPS and the big planes at high altitude.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[grue 1]

AFF kids get canopy skills, sure, but consider also they're coming down from the freefall rush on their jumps, and probably have more on their mind. For static line kids, it's really just canopy flight to concentrate on. Could be wrong, just calling it how I see it.

As for altitude, my first jumps were at 3500 or so I imagine, but (this varies from DZ to DZ of course), my instructors were very hardcore about canopy skills, and wanted to get people off the radios and thinking on their own as soon as possible instead of creating an instructor dependency.

As for spotting, it seems to me that most static line operations are at cessna dropzones, where GPS is less likely to be used, in addition to the small plane thing. If memory serves, I started spotting for my own jumps around jump 15 or 16. It's a lost art no matter what, but I think it's even more of a lost art at turbine/aff DZs.


In the end, would I have gone through AFF if my dz offered it, and if I was rich? Sure. Do I regret going through static line? Not for a moment.

cavete terrae.

[livendive 8]

Quote

I'll put it this way: if I as a fun jumper am going to spend 20 some dollars on a jump ticket I'm somewhat picky about who I'm going to jump with. I'll take the guy with 50 jumps who went through AFF over the guy with 150 jumps who went through SL any day.

That sounds too stereotyped to be real. In any case, at 30 jumps the S/L or IAD graduate will often be a better canopy pilot, and the AFF graduate will often be a better freefaller, both being highly dependent on the quality and quantity of coaching received in the latter part of their training. By 60ish jumps, the method by which they learned will likely be indistinguishable except on a hop & pop load.

It's with the hope of realizing the best of both methods that my students do IAD through the clear and pull, followed by four levels of AFF.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I'll take the guy with 50 jumps who went through AFF over the guy with 150 jumps who went through SL any day.

You don't think the 130+ full altitude jumps makes up for any difference in initial training methods? Isn't 130 much bigger than 50?

[bch7773 0]

Quote

I'll put it this way: if I as a fun jumper am going to spend 20 some dollars on a jump ticket I'm somewhat picky about who I'm going to jump with. I'll take the guy with 50 jumps who went through AFF over the guy with 150 jumps who went through SL any day.

yeah 125 jumps wouldn't improve your freefall skills at all.

I'd honestly guess AFF and S/L skills are about equal at 50 jumps.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

25 SL progression jumps from a 182 vs 25 AFF progression jumps from a turbine does not even compare. While I'm sure your dropzone (your dropzone being the DZ of who ever is reading this) has awesome instruction during all of those SL jumps, I just don't see how your skydiving skills could compare to those of someone from AFF.

I'll put it this way: if I as a fun jumper am going to spend 20 some dollars on a jump ticket I'm somewhat picky about who I'm going to jump with. I'll take the guy with 50 jumps who went through AFF over the guy with 150 jumps who went through SL any day.

Sure, USPA says 25 jumps = A license. But I just have to disagree with the statement that 25 jumps = 25 jumps no matter what method. You think SL is cheaper than AFF in the long run? I highly disagree. You're going to spend more money doing solos or working on your abilities in order to get up to snuff to have a worth while jump.

Like Freeflygoat said "Static Line progression was great in 1978. Does it work? Yes. Is AFF a better training program? Absolutely!"

Get with the times.

Bull.

When was the last time you went through an S/L progression, and did a jump? When was the last time you taught an S/L course? Ever jump with an S/L student?


Ever stop and compare which progression produces a safer skydiver?

AFF isn't "better". It's just "different".

Stop being so thick, and "get with the times."

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.