Black Hawk Down (movie)...

[skreamer 1]

When emma and Clay start agreeing on things I get very concerned.....

[ADRNALN 0]

Post deleted by ADRNALN

[Emma 0]

Will - I'm sure you know *exactly* why I am agreeing with Clay on this one....But yes, it is kinda...spooky!

[jfields 0]

That reminds me of part of a movie. It is in "Patton", when the German analyst says that the end of the war would destroy Patton. There is a lot of truth in that concept. It takes someone unbalanced to really excel in war. It is just a shame that those same people can't cope better with peace.
Justin

[skreamer 1]

Post deleted by skreamer

[SudsyFist 0]

Quote

So, now that you have nay-said, what the hell have you done for our country?

Um, you just touched a nerve there...
I've heard this kind of crap a lot from folks who do/did/will wear a uniform. From ROTC cadets to 5-jump-chump paper pushers to 20-year 11B/18x guys... the how-big-is-your-patriotic-dick attitude is well fostered by the military machine, but I think it's best kept to one's self for their own motivation.
Sharing it with remarks, innuendo, and questions like "what the hell have you done for your country" to others, *especially* over the Internet, can easily get you into situations you don't want to be in. The fact is that you might not really know who you're talking to.
It could very well be someone who *had* been involved in Restore Hope, Desert Storm, etc.
Or one who spent a fair amount of time in operations that you *don't* see some glossy-eyed over-made-up tanning-bed-victim gleefully spouting off about on CNN, of whom there are MANY (read: now mechanics, cab drivers, even flight attendants!)
Or it could even be the average citizen trying to make an honest living, paying taxes, voting, and trying to raise a family the best they can, of whom there are MILLIONS more.
Any of these individuals could be easily hurt, if not incited, by the condescension of such a remark (and rightly so). And I figure you prolly wouldn't feel too good about what you said after realizing its effect.
There's a fine line between patriotism and arrogant ignorance -- a line all too easily obscured by a good spit shine, sharp creases, and a high PFT score. Only humility, along with a dash of good sense, will keep it in check.
Steve

[freeflir29 0]

"I think it's best kept to one's self for their own motivation"
Well said Steve.........that's what really counts. It's usually pretty easy to recognize the difference between those that have and those that haven't. Patriotism will only get you so far. It's the deep personal motivations that must be followed. There are plenty out there that will talk a good game and tell lots of great stories and point fingers at others. I find the quiet types are the ones that get the job done. "Silent Professionals"
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[Emma 0]

Very well said Sudsy. I was thinking the same thing but...uh...not quite so eloquently.

[freeflir29 0]

"There's a fine line between patriotism and arrogant ignorance"
One other thing....I spent a lot of my ten years in the military on the arrogant ignorance side. It took some pretty shitty stuff for me to finally realize "What was really going on" After having my eyes slammed wide open I ended my military career. I just couldn't follow that program anymore.
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[ADRNALN 0]

Thank you Skreamer, Clay, and Emma!!!!!!
You people are why I love skydivers so much. Just to let the rest of you know these are great people.
The internet can cloud things up sometimes.
Thanks again!

[Emma 0]

• Quote

[skreamer 1]

Yep, a lot of us have personal issues and I know I am sometimes guilty of taking things out of context and being over-defensive. Sorry about that. (but thank god for PMs Will

[mnischalke 0]

"what the hell have you done for your country"
I have to agree with many of you folks on this one, or at least take a slight tangent. The above quote is the mentality of many who end up dead in a hurry. The medal hunters and glory hounds are often the first ones who get the luxury of a plastic bag transport home.
In defense of those who have that motto without ever being under fire, I once sported that saying. The very first patrol in which I was downrange of snipers (albeit shitty ones), I lost that mentality quickly. There's no god, no country, no mom and dad or sally rottencroch for that matter then. There's you and your buddies. If you fuck up, somebody very well could end up in a bag. You take care of them and they will take care of you.
I got sent to that rancid country and wasn't too happy about it once I took a look around. I often thought of how much of a dick Clinton was for shipping us over there at the behest of the liberal media to do what? But rather than becoming "why are we here?" guy, I just kept my rifle more clean than my camera and did my job.
Another slight tangent, within 20 minutes of landing in Mogadishu, I (a Lance Corporal) was giving no less than six USAF enlisted types between the ranks of E3 and E6 a lesson on that bright, shiny, new (still in the fucking plastic wrap with the little red cap at the end of the barrel) M16 rifle they were so haphazardly carrying. The hour I spent with them in between two hangars teaching rifle maintainence, operation, sighting, target aquisition, magazine loading and especially safety was more than any of them had ever received on this rifle. WTF??? (Clay, you know anything about this?) Maybe those folks were victims of the above saying and took certain "desk" jobs thinking they would never have to get their hands dirty.
If I seemed trite in this, sorry. Just how I feel.
mike
...red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me...

[freeflir29 0]

(Clay, you know anything about this?)
Yes I do....The Air Force used to do very little in the way of training in the arena of field skills. The majority of USAF types are "Technicians" that IN THE OLD DAYS would never get close to anyone actually shooting anything. The Air Force (Holy Shit don't believe it!!) Has recognized this problem and is at least trying to fix it. They have added an FTX to basic training. They actually try to teach people at least the most fundamental things about surviving in the field. Hell...when I went to basic training I saw a weapon once. The day we fired....that was it. 40 RDS Other than that I spent 6 weeks marching, doing half assed PT, Learning "about the military", and paperwork. That was about it. They have recognized the "Deployability" issue and are at least doing something about it. Like the Infantry School says "Do something...Even if it's wrong!" Now...if you had seen the AF guys hanging around the Rangers TACP/CCT/PJ's they probably could have taught you a thing or two about field skills. But those career fields are worlds apart from the "Regular Air Force"
That all said.....it's still a fact that 90-100% of all "High Speed Units" on Ft. Bragg go OUTSIDE the military for firearms training. Blackwater Training Center is very popular among the units on Bragg that have the money to spend on it.
PS...As a ROMAD I really couldn't stand hanging around the undisciplined wretches that were the "Regular Air Force" Those whiners bugged me. Reminds me of a Joke!
Picture an Infantry guy standing in the rain. Caption: This Sucks
A Ranger in the rain: I like the way this sucks
An SF Guy: I wish it would suck more!!! *Biting snake in half*
Air Force guy sitting in dorms looking out the window: Cables out!!! This sucks!!!
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[ADRNALN 0]

Will,
You are on my list for a pub visit next time I cross the lake.
Thanks!
John

[AggieDave 6]

To justify what I said with the comment "what the hell have you done for your country":
That wasn't talking about different military types, etc. That is not about glory hounds or people looking to get chest candy, that is not about desk bound fighters. That was said because the post that he posted is what I usually hear from the liberal left that has done nothing but critisize our great country, our military and the men and women who have dedicated their lives to making sure that this country continue. I got tired real quick hearing all the anti-military rhetoric while Clinton was in the Oval Office getting blow jobs instead of leading this country from the front, tired of the lax policies that let other nations seemingly walk all over the US. And sure as hell tired of all the fucking liberal-left-anti-military bullshit that was spewing out of seemingly every major media outlet.
I know there are a hell of a lot of former military guys and gals here as well as guys in training and people waiting their turn to get to the training and that motivates the hell out of me.
Basically, yall took what I said the wrong way, since I didn't word it quite right and the internet doesn't convey meaning as well as it should sometimes.
Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.-General George Patton-

[bill2 0]

That all said.....it's still a fact that 90-100% of all "High Speed Units" on Ft. Bragg go OUTSIDE the military for firearms training. Blackwater Training Center is very popular among the units on Bragg that have the money to spend on it.
_______________________________________________
Just curious, what's Blackwater Training Center?

[freeflir29 0]

http://www.blackwaterlodge.com/
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[MiataDRM 0]

I don't know what term to use for this movie. While the movie may not be accurate, it's factual & truthful (w/ a twist). The director had to take the ALL the different people in the book w/ their individual stories & compressed the stories into a few characters. If he didn't, he would have lost the attention of the average viewer. We must keep in mind that Holywood is in the business of making movies, not documentaries. As for the few bad apples/soldiers, you can not re-write history & delete them because of mistakes they have made later. I don't think the later should be covered up either. If you have never read the book...do yourself a favor...it's a GREAT book! It will keep you at the edge of your seat. Having said that, I HATE reading!
**I'm a Pschydiver!
Majdi

[SniperCJ 0]

"Just curious, what's Blackwater Training Center?"
Blackwater is a very high speed training center in North Carolina used by Police, Military and Spec Ops groups.
I was up there shooting in a sniper competition ( I placed a miserable third after leading the field for 2 days up till the last event) a couple years ago. They have long range, short range, moving targets, multiple shoot houses, waterways for amphibious assault. It a very nice facility.
CJ

[freeflir29 0]

"I placed a miserable third"
That ain't half bad considering the caliber of competition that shows up there.
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[bill2 0]

Thanks CJ. there seem to be more and more of those types of schools these days, that also allow civilians to train there. I have been to a couple of courses at Front Site, in Las Vegas. When I was there, there were numerous cops from various agencies. I would have thought, though, that the military would have the best training, especially at Ft Bragg, in this kind of thing. I'm suprised that those guys went outside of the military for that.

[SudsyFist 0]

Quote

"There's a fine line between patriotism and arrogant ignorance"
One other thing....I spent a lot of my ten years in the military on the arrogant ignorance side. It took some pretty shitty stuff for me to finally realize "What was really going on" After having my eyes slammed wide open I ended my military career. I just couldn't follow that program anymore.

Good point, Clay... I neglected to mention in my post that I had been guilty of the very same thing, myself. It's easy to slip into, and it usually takes getting your "eyes slammed wide open" to get your shite straight.
Dave, sorry if I came off kinda harsh. It was early, I was grouchy, and it was a touchy subject. If it's any consolation, I headed to the dz today only to get winded out...
Steve

[mnischalke 0]

Dave,
I think Sudsyfist and I had the same thing for breakfast. I wasn't really directing my comments toward you as much as expounding on Sudsy's post from my own experience.
I signed the contract with Uncle Sam's Misguided Children two days after the air war in Iraq began and was gone to Parris within two weeks. If that's not swallowing the whole what the hell have you done for your country thing without chewing, I don't know what is. I got an attitude check within three days of landing in northeast africa nearly two years later. My point was that some folks carry that attitude into situations that could be fatal for not only yourself, but those who count on your covering their ass.
I think I remarked on the liberal media and the bs web they weave. I totally echo your remarks on the anti-military pricks, who might not care if communist china annexed an undefended America.
And dave, you motivate me, future leatherneck. Sorry if my earlier post seemed maliciously directed toward you.
mike
...red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me...

[Jesse 0]

OK - my thoughts on all above, for what it's worth:
1. I served with 3rd Ranger Battalion from 94-97 and new John Stebbins pretty well; I was a platoon leader and company XO in the company next door to the one he was in. He was a real low-key unassuming guy and never went anywhere without coffee. The guy who plays him in the movie nails his personality and mannerisms, although Stebby is short and kinda pudgy and this guy looks tall and thin. Most of us who knew him where floored when we heard about what happened after he left the unit. You just never would have expected it of the guy. Anyway, he deserves to be punished for what he did, and he's certainly going to get his share at Leavenworth. But that doesn't change what he did on 3 OCT - at least 5 former Rangers who are out of the Army and now teachers, policemen, whatever, absolutely owe their life to him, and they should thank him every day, because although he was a short, dumpy, pudgy desk jockey who ended up raping a kid, the truth is he was also one hellaciously ferocious, heroic sonofabitch under direct fire. The paradox of war and combat - sometimes, and more often than not from what I've seen, the worst are the best. I knew a guy who watched Stebby stand in the middle of an alley, with no cover, watching some 13-year old kid with an AK trying to re-load, knowing he's high on khat and getting ready to blow him away, and Stebby starts throwing rocks at him, just to piss him off and keep him distracted so he couldn't reload because he's too busy dodging the rocks, and Stebby was holding a M-4 with a full mag, locked and loaded, in the middle of a free-fire zone. Stebby did it just to piss the kid off. He was that cool under fire, inside hand grenade range; he was playing games with these dudes while folks were getting there heads blown off. It was like some mean little kid teasing a house cat - same mentality. Weird guy.
2. The discussion about Rwanda, Algeria, etc. "Why didn't we help them? Why are we meddling in Somalia but not other places where people are dying?" Hey, it's complex, and it's personality driven. Clauswitz said that "War is an extension of politics by other means" and it's true. Soldiers go where they are ordered to go and fight and politicians make policy. Policy is devised by people with their own personal set of experiences, biases, and agendas. One of the main reasons we didn't act in Rwanda is because of the way the Clinton Administration reacted to Somalia. They withdrew the entire Task Force and basically declared defeat and cased the colors. Yes 18 Americans died, but the tactical mission was accomplished and they killed hundreds of the enemy. However, the strategic mission, the most important battle - the Public Relations War - was a total loss. The way the administration recated signalled defeat and was a clear message to the leaders of the US military - "Above all else - take no casualties!" The repercussions were felt for years, Bosnia, Kosovo, etc. The mission for the regular troops became force protection. This tended to instill a defensive mindset - and conflicts are not won by playing defense. We're still dealing with the effects of the way the politicians reacted to the events of 3 OCT 93 in the mindset and lessons that have been inculcated into many of our soldiers. 3 OCT was a reminder that in war, people die, brutally, violently, inexplicably, and in large numbers. We humans are just way too efficient at organized murder (combat) to expect anything else. It seems like this country forgets that lesson about every decade, and then has to re-learn it again.