Black Hawk Down (movie)...

[ADRNALN 0]

Great Men!!!!!!
Great Movie!!!!!!!!
And too be quite honest, I don't think the skinnies who died on "The Day of the Rangers" deserve to have their names displayed at the end of a movie depicting the bravery and spirit of the American Fighting Soldier
As for this film being racist, why don't you ask the black soldiers who were there if they feel this book and/or film are racist. Just to save you the time, "NO!" The skinnies are savages.
RLTW!!!

[skreamer 1]

Thats funny, I seem to remember you saying that Hinton was full of dicks...

[Emma 0]

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Thats funny, I seem to remember you saying that Hinton was full of dicks...

Small ones, yes....

[skybytch 259]

Read the book. The author gives an excellent reason why "nobody cared/cares" about Rwanda, Bosnia, Algeria and numerous other third world countries that are torn up by infighting. The reason? The action depicted in the book and film did NOTHING to fix the problems in Somalia, the same actions in other third world countries would also do NOTHING to fix the problems. Until the residents of these countries "rise up" and demand peace for their lands instead of being more worried about money and power for themselves or their "clans" nothing is going to change. Harsh? Yes. But true.
imho of course. pull and flare,
lisa
--

[ADRNALN 0]

SkyBycht, you hit the nail on the head. I totally agree.

[riggerrob 558]

"how come no one thought to intervene to stop the genocide in Rwanda?"
Actually, a Canadian general warned his superiors about the impending genocide a few weeks before the machettes started falling. His superiors at the UN chose to ignore his warning.
My brother tells of seeing the general wandering the hallways of National Defence Medical Center, a broken man.

[mnischalke 0]

Lisa,
I was about to go ape shit on our British friends and I read your post. Suddenly I was grounded. You hit the nail on the head. One thing that I can't remember being talked about in the book, which is now coming to light is the fact that al Queda was functioning in Somalia in 1992 and was very strong by the end of 1993.
I was in the Mogadishu "International" airport on Dec. 11, 1992. On my ride to the embassy compound, I saw a lot of happy-to-see-me faces mixed in with a bunch of AK-47 muzzles rested, but still pointed in my direction. I got to my "quarters" for the next month and could still smell the human and cattle feces in the room. It seems the civil somalis, had taken over the old embassy school house and turned it into some sort of barn/living quarters, complete with shallow graves 10 feet away. The somalis we hired to clean the place out said that the waste was two feet deep.
In their infinite wisdom, the somalis turned a beautiful mediterranian-type vacation town for rich europeans into a disgusting, bullet hole-riddled pigpen in a matter of a few years. Copper plumbing was ripped out of every facility and turned in for scrap (to whom?). They figured they could draw water from elsewhere and just shit wherever they pleased. Trust me, I will never forget the smell of Mogadishu. In that whole town, everyone was a begger or a con, but not one was starving. (Some somali did actually offer his wife to me for three MREs.)
Getting out of that city, I saw true horror. People being used as weapons and pawns. There were warlords and there were emaciated piles of skin and bones kinda resembling people. It's disgusting how you can treat your own kind like that. Unfortunately, what most people in the West will never understand is tribalism. If we would have understood it then and not been so easily swayed by the media, we easily could have avoided that whole shit pile like we did with Rowanda, Algeria and many others since.
Within within two weeks of my return to mogadishu, I noticed a tremendous swing in our acceptance. We were once the "white heros" but had become satan. In recent years, it has come to light that high-ranking Al Queda members realized they could hit the Americans on "their soil." They began using their power to swing the somali opinion. Violence against the multi-national force became a daily occurance. I thank god that the somalis were horrible marksmen and total buffoons when it came to tactical planning. I was on a few patrols and round-ups that could have gone very wrong very quickly and wound up like the one depicted in Blackhawk Down. But, that early in the game, they had very little organizational skills or tactical experience. When the al Queda became stronger in somalia, they could pull off bigger ops like the one against the Rangers in October.
The Brits were in somalia with us, as were the Italians and even some Canadians. It's so sad to hear a few of the holier-than-thou europeans talking smack about things which they know zippy.
mike
...red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me...

[R00tj00se 0]

Mike
I don't think anyone is doubting the bravery of the people involved in this mission. The 2 guys who asked to be put down at crash site 2 I think it was must have known they were more than likely to die but went anyway - how many would go that far for someone they hardly know.
I think what people (or holier than thou europeans as you put it) are trying to say is that the decision makers back in the US were wrong to get involved in this country. It was an error of judgement and you yourself said:
'Unfortunately, what most people in the West will never understand is tribalism. If we would have understood it then and not been so easily swayed by the media, we easily could have avoided that whole shit pile like we did with Rowanda, Algeria and many others since.'
Now the media plays a big part in how a nation and its politicians react and behave. Typical media tactics is to condemn decision makers for not taking a tough stance on certain issues and then when the bombs start flying the cameras hunt out the allegedly stray bombs which allegedly landed on schools and hospitals (typical BBC tactics).
Now where was I going with this, oh yes, the media...
Well, this film is a prime example of a media (or medium) that is designed to influence. The director himself said now was a perfect time to release the film - to unite the country while it fights in Afghanistan and tries to come to terms with sept. 11th. But I'm afraid I don't think the flm did the rangers etc, justice. It was an emotional film but all the way through it smelled of Hollywood and I feel it was greatly let down at the end. The soldiers had just got themselves through hell and then the film ends without showing me how they were feeling. There was a lame attempt at showing a ranger talking to his dead friend but it didn't show me the true person behind the soldier and that is why I think the film let these poeple down.
For instance a programme which hit me a lot harder than this film was 'Band of Brothers' I don't know whether you got that in the US but this really left no doubt as to what war was - horrific.
Black Hawk Down was a good film - but it could have been so much better

[PhreeZone 15]

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Black Hawk Down was a good film - but it could have been so much better

It could have been... and it will be on DVD. The problem is that the fight was 17 hours long, the typical audience will only stay interested for about 2 hours.... They stretched it to 3. On DVD they are free to show the stuff that they did'nt have time for in the theater.
I want to touch the sky, I want to fly so high ~ Sonique

[mnischalke 0]

*** But I'm afraid I don't think the flm did the rangers etc, justice. It was an emotional film but all the way through it smelled of Hollywood and I feel it was greatly let down at the end. [\quote]
Well, this movie had more DOD support than any other movie prior. They wanted Hollywood to get it right. Morocco, the filming location was the biggest flaw in the picture I have seen so far and it's pretty minor at that.

mike
...red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me...

[ADRNALN 0]

Why do you say Morroco was a "bad" place to shot BHD?

[mnischalke 0]

It was filmed in Morocco.
And, I guess probably a much better alternative than the real place.
mike
...red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me...

[AggieDave 6]

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And, I guess probably a much better alternative than the real place

Still a little better then some of the neiborhoods I've driven around in...well, maybe not.
Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.-General George Patton-

[algboy 0]

I hate to be the party-pooper for those who watch too many John Wayne movies.
I wish to God I could remember this story better, but it was years ago in some non-mainstream rag: the father of one of the dead Rangers from the Somalia debacle walked up to Clinton at some "award" ceremony or other and basically said "you don't deserve to be the commander-in-chief of this country's armed forces . . . you are an embarassment to the office of President . . . blah-blaH-BLAH!" Clinton got all red-faced and the troublesome dad was whisked away..
I remember reading this following info a few weeks ago, but I had no end of trouble finding this information ANYWHERE (even on the "free" Internet) now that the movie is in full hype (here goes):
In reality, McGregor's Grimes is based on real-life Army Ranger John
"Stebby" Stebbins, who, aside from being a hero in the Battle of Mogadishu,
is now a convicted child molester.
The Army purportedly tried to hide that fact when Scott and company began
shooting Black Hawk Down. Mark Bowden, author of the original bestselling
book and its screenplay, told the New York Post he was pressured by Pentagon
officials to change the name of Stebbins to Grimes to avoid the controversy.
"As it happened, Stebbins got in trouble with the law," Bowden told the
Post. "The Army asked us to change the name."
Stebbins, now 36, tried three times to enlist in the military during the
Persian Gulf War and was turned away before finally being accepted into the
Army's formidable Ranger unit.
Relegated to desk clerk duty and labeled "chief coffee maker" by his peers
until called into action, "Stebby" reportedly surprised his fellow soldiers
with his bravery and was eventually awarded the Army's distinguished Silver
Star--one of the military's highest honors--for his heroism during the
bloody battle.
While he proved to be a tough fighter during the botched operation, Stebbins
eventually ran afoul of the law. He was court-martialed on June 8, 2000, for
sexually abusing a child under the age of 12 and sentenced to 30 years in
Leavenworth military prison in Kansas, where he now resides.
Despite the name change, Stebbins' conviction blanketed the movie in
controversy. His ex-wife, Nora Stebbins, wrote an email to the Post
objecting to the movie making a hero out of a convicted sex offender.
"[Producers] are going to make millions off this film in which my ex-husband
is portrayed as an All-American hero, when the truth is he is not," she
wrote.
Let's face it: the war-making machinery is pumping up again and getting ready to "fire up" Joe and Mary Sixpack to give the thumbs up for more incursions into Iraq, Somalia, Yemen, etc.
I have TOTAL respect for the US armed forces, but they are being USED--follow the money!!
"The enormous gap between what US leaders do in the world and what Americans think their leaders are doing is one of the great propaganda accomplishments of the dominant political mythology."
--Michael Parenti
"That which does not kill me makes me stronger."--Nietzsche

[AggieDave 6]

Hey, he's not perfect. No one is, he just fucked up a bit more then most. He still deserves the recognition for his actions IN combat.
Although I do appreciate your opinions, I think that your timing is bad. And of course, "your" is being used in a universal sense, refering to all those who do the same thing. The movie isn't historically accurate, I don't think I've seen a movie that has been 100% accurate; however, the point of the movie is to MOTIVATE the general American public. Not as a war cry but as something to help stir patriotism and keep it stirred. Patriotism includes more then just waving the flag, it includes condidence in our great nation and with the recent economic events, between Enron and K-mart and the more that may follow, quite a bit of the general public needs some confidence in our country.
So, now that you have nay-said, what the hell have you done for our country?
Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.-General George Patton-

[freeflir29 0]

"portrayed as an All-American hero, when the truth is he is not"
Out of all the people I have known that might be classified as "American Heros" for their actions in a war very few amounted to anything outside of the military. It's just how it works and the propaganda machine likes to paint a prettier picture for everyone. There's a plain and simple fact. A true warrior has a very hard time getting along in American society. They try to portray soldiers as Hallmark greeting card/Norman Rockwell types and it just doesn't work that way. You don't go out and kill people at close range and it not have any effect on you. Unless you are a complete sociopath. I have a lot of friends that have seen some pretty ugly situations including that battle in Somalia and every single one of them has ghosts in their closet because of it. I had a boss that had 66 confirmed kills in desert storm and ten years later he would still cry about killing people. Another that was with the Task Force that day in Somalia and he won't even speak a word about it unless he is really drunk. Another that still has nightmares and screams in his sleep because he used his knife to kill a 15 year Somali boy that was trying to kill him. These are good guys that went through some shitty stuff. I'm not excusing anyone's actions but I can certainly tell you that going through things like this can make life that much harder to put up with. So, unless you have been there and done that SHUT THE FUCK UP!
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[ADRNALN 0]

Algboy:
You haven't seen the movie have you? When and if you do there is a line from one of the Delta operatives which helps to put Stebbins/Grimes part in BHD into perspective.
Something along the lines of, "I don't try and explain why I do what I do. They would not understand that I do it for the guy next to me." I don't think you could tell the story correctly without including his character. And trust me, he is paying for what he did, especially in Ft. Bendoverworth.
By the way which money trail lead us to the Moj?

[ADRNALN 0]

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[TheMarshMan1 0]

I dont think it was Stebbins/Grimes that said that (but I could be wrong). And no, you sure as hell couldnt have told the story quite right without him in it....

[ADRNALN 0]

It was not the "Grimes" character it was one of the Delta Operatives that says it. What I meant was what goes on there can not be put into a "normal" daily life perspective. And what he did there is not cancelled out because he made mistakes (how ever large) later in life.

[TheMarshMan1 0]

Yeah...thats right it was the Delta guy. I see what your saying and totally agree....

[Emma 0]

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A true warrior has a very hard time getting along in American society. They try to portray soldiers as Hallmark greeting card/Norman Rockwell types and it just doesn't work that way. You don't go out and kill people at close range and it not have any effect on you. Unless you are a complete sociopath. I have a lot of friends that have seen some pretty ugly situations including that battle in Somalia and every single one of them has ghosts in their closet because of it. I had a boss that had 66 confirmed kills in desert storm and ten years later he would still cry about killing people. Another that was with the Task Force that day in Somalia and he won't even speak a word about it unless he is really drunk. Another that still has nightmares and screams in his sleep because he used his knife to kill a 15 year Somali boy that was trying to kill him. These are good guys that went through some shitty stuff. I'm not excusing anyone's actions but I can certainly tell you that going through things like this can make life that much harder to put up with. So, unless you have been there and done that SHUT THE FUCK UP!

Very well put. I don't think it's something most people can understand. Not that I'm saying I do, it's just I've seen what it does to some supposed 'heros' of ours and it's a fucking tragedy. The psychological cost is born by our soldiers...the blame belongs to all of us.

[AggieDave 6]

What I'm hoping comes out of this movie is the realization that in every conflict, there are men (and women) that do extraordinary things in the face of danger. Even in wars that weren't neccissarily "good" ones, there are numerous instances of heroism. The general public or atleast the very outspoken media (aka very liberal and biased media) doesn't seem to care most of the time. This sways public opinion away from the truth and our proud military suffurs for it. Is it right that young families of enlisted personel sometimes find themselve living on food stamps just to make it? Or is it right that budgets be cut so far back that the organizations put in place can not even accomplish the job they were created for? The list could go on. Atleast now we have a CINC that has a backbone, that won't back down from the forces that oppose our country, that isn't sleeping around and will stand behind our military.

(I'll be back from class in about 5 hours or so, so my responses to the almost certain replies will be a bit delayed Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom.-General George Patton-

[freeflir29 0]

"The psychological cost is born by our soldiers...the blame belongs to all of us"
Thank you! That's probably the worst part. I don't think the average person even has close to a clue what that "cost" is. I've seen it and it's not pretty. Some handle it better than others but it's definately baggage that they will carry for the rest of their lives.
"I got some beers....Let's Drink em!!!"
Clay

[skreamer 1]

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