Katana 150 or Stiletto 150; 1.4 wing loading

[hokierower 0]

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After progressing to a smaller velocity I found the Katana lost more height in a similar turn and required as much skill and attention as a Velo to fly .

I was under the impression that Velos were less forgiving and that the Katana was a stepping stone to a Velo. If the Velo is a better wing, but takes the same degree of skill to fly - why doesn't everyone jump a Velo?

Cuz the Ka works better with lower WL. Its a great stepping stone, but once you jump the Velo the Katana goes up for sale!

I know that PD generally doesn't say that their canopies work best at a certain WL'ing like NZAerosports does, but do Katana's have recommended WL'ings based off of other people experience?

[DocPop 1]

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After progressing to a smaller velocity I found the Katana lost more height in a similar turn and required as much skill and attention as a Velo to fly .

I was under the impression that Velos were less forgiving and that the Katana was a stepping stone to a Velo. If the Velo is a better wing, but takes the same degree of skill to fly - why doesn't everyone jump a Velo?

Cuz the Ka works better with lower WL. Its a great stepping stone, but once you jump the Velo the Katana goes up for sale!

I know that PD generally doesn't say that their canopies work best at a certain WL'ing like NZAerosports does, but do Katana's have recommended WL'ings based off of other people experience?

There are some max weight recommendations on the PD website.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[billvon 2,395]

>do you mean the original crossfire or the crossfire2???

Crossfire2. I had an original Crossfire 99 for a while and didn't like it much. The new XF2 is a more refined canopy.

[linebckr83 3]

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>do you mean the original crossfire or the crossfire2???

Crossfire2. I had an original Crossfire 99 for a while and didn't like it much. The new XF2 is a more refined canopy.

Personally I dont understand why they even have the same name. They feel worlds apart to me.

Definitely give the crossfire2 some research. I fell in love with mine from the get-go. Like others said, it can definitely swoop if told to swoop, but can also glide really flat on rears and lands great. Light toggle and riser pressures. And the openings...ohhh the openings! 300 jumps on mine now and not a single one that was even remotely snappy or "interesting". IMO the best advanced all-around parachute out there.

If I could marry mine I would

"Are you coming to the party?
Oh I'm coming, but I won't be there!"
Flying Hellfish #828
Dudist #52

[MikeJD 0]

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Personally I dont understand why they even have the same name. They feel worlds apart to me.

Mainly marketing, I guess - I think the original Crossfire was a pretty popular canopy. Same with the PD Sabre/ Sabre 2. I've never jumped the latter but it's surely a very different design from the original.

The more I read about the XF2, the more I think about putting my Katana up for sale. Not that there's anything wrong with the Katana - it just wasn't designed for pilots like me.

[martwald 0]

Based on everything I've read (and chats at the DZ this weekend) these are my conclusions (as much for me as anyone!), correct me if you think I am wrong, for recollection I am progressing from a Springo 160 (around 100 jumps on it) and want something a bit faster and responsive:

Katana 150 - too aggressive a canopy for a pilot with 200 jumps; would be too lightly loaded at 1.4 anyway.

Stiletto 150 - this would be a fine change, but: split opinion on openings (and I have a bad neck at the best of times); possibly an old design which has been superseded by the likes of the xfire2. Loading about right at 1.4.

Crossfire 2 149 - seems to be a bit in between the Katana and Stiletto on suitability, reckon I'd be okay on it; sweeter openings than the Stiletto; more modern design addressing some of the shortfallings of the Stiletto; loading possibly too light at 1.4, especially for resale.

Sabre 2 150 - nicely loaded; not quite sure will it seem a bit less of an exciting ride than my old Springo whereas I'm looking for a more exciting canopy - this is my primary concern with this option.

Safire 2 149 - same comments as Sabre 2 (roll on the comments on how different they are, they really seem comparable to me).

Pilot 150 - not at all familiar with.

[trigger 0]

Seeing you've fessed up on the numbers stick with what you have.(assuming i read that right.200jumps total, 100 on springo)
100 jumps on a canopy is nothing.
Sabre2/Safire would be more suitable in around 200 jumps time.

.CHOP WOOD COLLECT WATER.

[dragon2 0]

With 200 jumps, you shouldn't be on a springo (of any size)... Hint, over here you need 400 jumps to jump a springo. Whoever sold you that canopy at 100 jumps was not your friend.

Let alone a crossfire/katana type canopy. That would be plain stupid at 200 jumps.
As is a wingloading of 1.4 IMO.

My advice would be to stick with the springo 160 for another 200 jumps, or better yet, get a sabre2 170 that might please you more than the springo.

And get some canopy coaching. No way are you maxing out that canopy yet.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[rehmwa 2]

I wonder if this was just an experiment on how to get people to provide info

The jump numbers pretty much came out completely AFTER the info was shared

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[dragon2 0]

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I wonder if this was just an experiment on how to get people to provide info

The jump numbers pretty much came out completely AFTER the info was shared

And funnily, actually no one had ASKED for them...

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Based on everything I've read (and chats at the DZ this weekend) these are my conclusions (as much for me as anyone!), correct me if you think I am wrong, for recollection I am progressing from a Springo 160 (around 100 jumps on it) and want something a bit faster and responsive:

Katana 150 - too aggressive a canopy for a pilot with 200 jumps; would be too lightly loaded at 1.4 anyway.

Stiletto 150 - this would be a fine change, but: split opinion on openings (and I have a bad neck at the best of times); possibly an old design which has been superseded by the likes of the xfire2. Loading about right at 1.4.

Crossfire 2 149 - seems to be a bit in between the Katana and Stiletto on suitability, reckon I'd be okay on it; sweeter openings than the Stiletto; more modern design addressing some of the shortfallings of the Stiletto; loading possibly too light at 1.4, especially for resale.

All of those are too aggressive.

While the Stiletto doesn't dive as steep as a more modern design, it's a lot more sensitive to toggle input and unintentional over-control. John LeBlanc had all the following PD canopies detuned because he observed jumpers having problems with roll axis stability issues landing.

Hence this reference (Stiletto 150 fatality with a 1.2 wing loading) from earlier in the thread

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3709212.

The Crossfire dives like contemporary designs but retains more of the handling characteristics that people liked in the Stiletto than less tapered designs.

The somewhat tapered 9 cell of your choice (Sabre2, Safire2, Pilot) is a much better choice. Try them all; while the performance differences won't make much of a difference you'll prefer how one feels over the others.

170 square feet is also a much better idea than 150. Get used to landing down-wind and cross-wind, doing flat and flare turns, etc. That should keep you entertained for a while.

[rehmwa 2]

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I wonder if this was just an experiment on how to get people to provide info

The jump numbers pretty much came out completely AFTER the info was shared

And funnily, actually no one had ASKED for them...

sometimes, I think that just providing general info isn't so bad. we don't need to ask the single jumper what their experience is so much as to just put out the performance opinions and also include jump number and experience expectations for the canopy

some listen, some don't - so just giving the correct info (including how to eventually get to those canopies) might be more productive than chewing them out and withholding information in one thread just to give it out elsewhere

I don't believe anyone is saved here, in DZ.com, from being a dumbass. I do believe we can help those we actually are local with.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[erdnarob 1]

The Stiletto is a flat ride canopy while the Katana has the highest pitch angle of all canopies I have measured (ie. 18 degrees) and therefore is ground hungry. But if you apply some brake or rear risers, you can come back from a long spot as well. The Katana has a long recovery arc which makes it build up a lot of speed for swooping. I am not particularly a swooper with my Katana 170 but I like the speed associated with the high pitch angle for it provides me with incredible strong flare at landing. The Stiletto apparently needs to be stopped by applying toggles in opposite direction when you want to come out of a turn. This is not the case for the Katana.
I recently tried a Katana 150 loading it at 1.9. I was a bit nervous for landing but while the feeling on toggles was one of lightness, I made sure to have a lot of space in front on me at landing. I got an incredible nice landing. I even got up by one foot before walking softly in the grass. I seems to me that landing with a K150 was better than landing in the same conditions with my K170. If you want a soft opening canopy and have a lot of fun while having a good flare, you should go for the Katana which seems to be the most popular canopy right now. The Katana is a docile canopy with long toggles range as far as you don't push it. Don't make a 180 degrees turn too low because it banks and gains speed rapidely. After 40 years in skydiving the Katana is my best canopy ever.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[DocPop 1]

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The Katana is a docile canopy ....

That's an interesting use of the word "docile".

What canopies would you include in the "Not docile" group, and what characteristics put them in that group but exclude the Katana?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[erdnarob 1]

Well, not docile in this context concerns the canopies having short toggle range. They will have a more snappy reaction when you use them in comparison with long toggles range. If your toggle range is longer, the same toggle deflexion leads to a slower response than the other type. I also found that just the name KATANA scares a lot of people who have never jumped it. The Katana as all highly and fully elliptical canopies can give you a lot of emotions but driven conservatively gives the impression of lightness on toggles, easy going and predictable ride.
A not docile canopy is also a canopy which can stall without warning at all. It depends on the design. On the other hand, very docile canopies are the student ones for obvious reasons. In comparaison, airplane are like that too. I have been a pilot for 22 years flying most of the time Cessna's. They are docile in the sense they are predictable and stable as far as you don't push them. On the other hand I flew a couple of time a Maule tail dragger which was very touchy in all situations. For sure you get used to it but undocile canopies or airplanes require more concentration and focus and are way less forgiving even for little errors.
I do sometimes flat low turns with my Katana when I have to without any probem. It is like a sport car (roadster), very stable, easy to drive and last but not the least, a very fun canopy to fly. At my second jump on mine, the spot was too short and found myself having to do accuracy in order to land in a glade in Florida. I was over a forest when I spotted a glade. I wanted to land lengthwise for maximum space in front of me and had to fly very near a tree to do so, a sort of accuracy. I succeeded doing so but unfortunaltely, the glade was covered with small shrubs unseen from altitude. My landing was not so bad considering the conditions. It took me a good half an hour to get out of the forest. It was at ZHills Fl.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.