phoenixlpr 0 #51 August 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteIf the shit hits the fan, how would you cut your crap away? Hey phoenixlpr, that's a good question. How would you cut your crap away? - David I did. I got some reserve rides, but still here and jumping too. You might have some chance to become an old skydiver if you don't put yourself into the corner.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #52 August 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteHave you ever done crw? got into a wrap? I'm a crwdog and a canopy staller and have done 5+ wraps of brakeline to make a narly stall happen. Darwin recipient, maybe. How i've avoided 'going in' for such lewd acts of stupidity is to be done playing stupid above the decision altitude. I have not doen CReW yet, but I hope there is a difference betwwen an experienced CRW dog and a student.... Can you see some?Ok ok, maybe students should'nt be doing things like wrapping brakeline around their hands to make a canopy stall, especially without being mentally and physically prepared for the consequences that may result. But on the other hand, hmmm, 2 out, ya the schools teach them EP's for that. Physical training on flying 2 out and stalling a parachute would be good for skydivers at some point prior to them receiving a master license, do you think so? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #53 August 30, 2007 QuoteOk ok, maybe students should'nt be doing things like wrapping brakeline around their hands to make a canopy stall, especially without being mentally and physically prepared for the consequences that may result. I'd rather go for proper tools for proper training. An intermediate canopy can be stalled. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
denete 2 #54 August 30, 2007 QuoteYou might have some chance to become an old skydiver if you don't put yourself into the corner.... From everything that I've read, heard, and seen, you are absolutely dead-on right. - DavidSCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #55 August 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteOk ok, maybe students should'nt be doing things like wrapping brakeline around their hands to make a canopy stall, especially without being mentally and physically prepared for the consequences that may result. I'd rather go for proper tools for proper training. An intermediate canopy can be stalled.Good enough. Are you saying an intermediate canopy is the proper tool for stall training? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
denete 2 #56 August 30, 2007 QuoteQuote...being mentally and physically prepared for the consequences that may result. I'd rather go for proper tools for proper training. This brings up a good point, and I would really appreciate it if the "old guys" (no offense intended) could shed some light on this. There are a lot of aspects of this sport that are not directly taught to students. Instead, that knowledge is obtained through a cycle of sorts (that has been my experience so far). First we have trial-and-error at altitude, then relating our trial-and-error experience to another skydiver (wise skydiver...usually older...usually still alive), then receiving (from that sage skydiver) the explanation of what we experienced and how it is a part of the sport. So, let's leave that learning method alone and probe a new one. For the "experienced" skydivers...would you answer these questions? Humor me, and I'll cut to the chase. 1. Do you carry a hook-knife? 2. Why do you carry it? 3. Who taught you how / when to use it? 4. How many jumps did you have when you started carrying it? - David The airport doesn't need a beacon. You can see it for miles thanks to all of the lightbulbs popping up over the newbie jumper's heads.SCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #57 August 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteOk ok, maybe students should'nt be doing things like wrapping brakeline around their hands to make a canopy stall, especially without being mentally and physically prepared for the consequences that may result. I'd rather go for proper tools for proper training. An intermediate canopy can be stalled.Good enough. Are you saying an intermediate canopy is the proper tool for stall training? At least better than something designed for being almost impossible to stall. I did my stall training on an old 300+ sqft, 9cell, F1-11 canopy. I don't think they could be common nowadays. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #58 August 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteOk ok, maybe students should'nt be doing things like wrapping brakeline around their hands to make a canopy stall, especially without being mentally and physically prepared for the consequences that may result. I'd rather go for proper tools for proper training. An intermediate canopy can be stalled.Good enough. Are you saying an intermediate canopy is the proper tool for stall training? At least better than something designed for being almost impossible to stall. I did my stall training on an old 300+ sqft, 9cell, F1-11 canopy. I don't think they could be common nowadays.I recieved stall training on a Manta 288sq ft. back in the early 90's. first main was a cruislite 220, learned alot with it. Turn rates (hookturns), stalls, crw, and flare timing,along with RW and the basics. I did take many wraps of brakeline on my hands to get a more radical stall with the canopy and had visited with others about the effects and the 'what to do' if things went very wrong. Much thought and assistance was used prior to doing such things. I also fly a Sabre 120 at times that I have done several downplanes with, tri-by-side , hookturns, and wicked stalls. I make the Sabre fly backwards at high speed ,fold into a triangle shape, spin like a helicopter while in the stall mode. This has happened hundreds of times with this canopy and still no cutaways due to the radical stalls. Did have a lineover on the cruislite once but cleared it prior to getting to my decision altitude. Have stalled a few ellipticals radically but don't recommend a radical stall with them. Nearly fell into a Jonathan 170 on a test jump during stall recovery one time. And I carry a hookknife and know how to use it, but don't rely on having it as sometimes these things mysteriously disappear. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #59 August 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuote...being mentally and physically prepared for the consequences that may result. I'd rather go for proper tools for proper training. This brings up a good point, and I would really appreciate it if the "old guys" (no offense intended) could shed some light on this. There are a lot of aspects of this sport that are not directly taught to students. Instead, that knowledge is obtained through a cycle of sorts (that has been my experience so far). First we have trial-and-error at altitude, then relating our trial-and-error experience to another skydiver (wise skydiver...usually older...usually still alive), then receiving (from that sage skydiver) the explanation of what we experienced and how it is a part of the sport. So, let's leave that learning method alone and probe a new one. For the "experienced" skydivers...would you answer these questions? Humor me, and I'll cut to the chase. 1. Do you carry a hook-knife? YES 2. Why do you carry it? A LINEOVER ON RESERVE, AND CRW, AND SEATBELTS 3. Who taught you how / when to use it? OLD CREWDOG 4. How many jumps did you have when you started carrying it? 30 SOMETHING - David The airport doesn't need a beacon. You can see it for miles thanks to all of the lightbulbs popping up over the newbie jumper's heads.Have'nt had to use one yet, if i have to cut a seat belt 'cause jumper is dangling from A/C from getting caught on it as they exit, you'd bet if I have the chance i'll hack the seat belt if it's possible. CRW: in case of a wrap, last ditch effort to clear wrap. Line over on reserve, if I can't clear it i'm cutting it. Lineover on main, if I can't clear it i'm releasing the main and pulling the reserve. Lack of hooknife training: for most jumpers there is. CRW dogs seem to have a good amount of preparedness for the use of a hooknife. Do instructors train the use of a hooknife? I'm not an instructor therefore... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,396 #60 August 30, 2007 >1. Do you carry a hook-knife? Yes >2. Why do you carry it? To cut oxygen hoses To cut stray threads off jumpsuits To cut through a SL if needed (not much use any more!) To deal with a reserve lineover (unlikely that it will help, but . . .) >3. Who taught you how / when to use it? No one. >4. How many jumps did you have when you started carrying it? Had one from jump 200-1500, then didn't have one, then had one from jump 4600 to present. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #61 August 30, 2007 Quote1. Do you carry a hook-knife? 2. Why do you carry it? 3. Who taught you how / when to use it? 4. How many jumps did you have when you started carrying it? 1.: always 2.: because I have to 3.: my instructors 4.: from my first jump. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #62 August 30, 2007 QuoteQuote1. Do you carry a hook-knife? 2. Why do you carry it? 3. Who taught you how / when to use it? 4. How many jumps did you have when you started carrying it? 1.: always 2.: because I have to 3.: my instructors 4.: from my first jump. 2. you don't have too. But your answer ' because you have to' is a heckuva a reason. 3. I did'nt get trained by instructors on how/when to use a hooknife. Can you help me out here and relay what your instructors taught you about the use of a hooknife? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #63 August 30, 2007 Quote>1. Do you carry a hook-knife? Yes >2. Why do you carry it? To cut oxygen hoses To cut stray threads off jumpsuits To cut through a SL if needed (not much use any more!) To deal with a reserve lineover (unlikely that it will help, but . . .) >3. Who taught you how / when to use it? No one. >4. How many jumps did you have when you started carrying it? Had one from jump 200-1500, then didn't have one, then had one from jump 4600 to present. I forgot about oxygen hose Bill , i've done that too. Some jumpers elect to cut their stowbands off their main dbag using a hooknife which is not a good idea. Perfect example, I told a jumper to not use anything sharp on or around their gear when they had ask me how to get the stowbands off and they had their hooknife in hand. I told them why. a few months later at a dz we both happened to be at a dz that was'nt home dz, a packer told him to use his hooknife to cut the stowband loose. He ended up cutting the loop that holds the stow band along with the stowband, then I happened to walk by. Oops. Maybe because i'm not an instructor homie decided to do the opposite of what I had told him. I repaired his gear for him anyway and charged him the repair fee + a jump ticket, then we jumped together and had a good time. He learned the lesson the hard way. Plus, using the hooknife will dull the blade the more it is used. I like to keep mine sharp and don't use it unless it's necessary. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AFFI 0 #64 August 30, 2007 Quote>1. Do you carry a hook-knife? Yes >2. Why do you carry it? To cut oxygen hoses To cut stray threads off jumpsuits To cut through a SL if needed (not much use any more!) To deal with a reserve lineover (unlikely that it will help, but . . .) >3. Who taught you how / when to use it? No one. >4. How many jumps did you have when you started carrying it? Had one from jump 200-1500, then didn't have one, then had one from jump 4600 to present. Is this what is know as thread hijacking?Mykel AFF-I10 Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat… Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
denete 2 #65 August 30, 2007 QuoteIs this what is know as thread hijacking? No more than those who are contributing wish for it to be. A few more responses and I'll cut to the chase on my theory.SCR #14809 "our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe" (look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #66 August 30, 2007 QuoteQuote>1. Do you carry a hook-knife? Yes >2. Why do you carry it? To cut oxygen hoses To cut stray threads off jumpsuits To cut through a SL if needed (not much use any more!) To deal with a reserve lineover (unlikely that it will help, but . . .) >3. Who taught you how / when to use it? No one. >4. How many jumps did you have when you started carrying it? Had one from jump 200-1500, then didn't have one, then had one from jump 4600 to present. Is this what is know as thread hijacking? Oops, sorry, I think this thread has gotten a bit of course and is thread jacked. Good topic and discussion about hooknife though. Plaease let us continue on this thread. Homie will cut to the chase soon. right homie? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Legs 0 #67 August 30, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuote1. Do you carry a hook-knife? 2. Why do you carry it? 3. Who taught you how / when to use it? 4. How many jumps did you have when you started carrying it? 1.: always 2.: because I have to 3.: my instructors 4.: from my first jump. 2. you don't have too. But your answer ' because you have to' is a heckuva a reason. 3. I did'nt get trained by instructors on how/when to use a hooknife. Can you help me out here and relay what your instructors taught you about the use of a hooknife? In the UK every certified Skydiver has to carry a hooknife. BPA ops manual.With love in Christ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ether 0 #68 August 30, 2007 QuoteOk ok, maybe students should'nt be doing things like wrapping brakeline around their hands to make a canopy stall Just to be clear, since I didn't clarify this point before, my instructor specifically said "you may have to wrap the lines a few times to get a stall". He has 5000+ jumps and is a well-respected active poster here. And yes, I understood that such actions could make the canopy unflyable and require the use of EPs. Hence doing this above 2000 feet.Looking for newbie rig, all components... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #69 August 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote1. Do you carry a hook-knife? 2. Why do you carry it? 3. Who taught you how / when to use it? 4. How many jumps did you have when you started carrying it? 1.: always 2.: because I have to 3.: my instructors 4.: from my first jump. 2. you don't have too. But your answer ' because you have to' is a heckuva a reason. 3. I did'nt get trained by instructors on how/when to use a hooknife. Can you help me out here and relay what your instructors taught you about the use of a hooknife? In the UK every certified Skydiver has to carry a hooknife. BPA ops manual. The UK has a bit more set rules and as far as I know, make jumpers abide by them. More so than the U.S. Do you guys have issues with landing pattern on no wind days? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #70 August 31, 2007 QuoteQuoteOk ok, maybe students should'nt be doing things like wrapping brakeline around their hands to make a canopy stall Just to be clear, since I didn't clarify this point before, my instructor specifically said "you may have to wrap the lines a few times to get a stall". He has 5000+ jumps and is a well-respected active poster here. And yes, I understood that such actions could make the canopy unflyable and require the use of EPs. Hence doing this above 2000 feet.To me that's good training, I'd imagine you guys discussed the obvious part about if you take wraps on the line you'll need to get the line off your hands prior to releasing the main. Sounds like you have a well respected instructor, most instructors are well respected. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Legs 0 #71 August 31, 2007 At times, for the most part it is set and announced on the flight line before the ride to altitude by the Jump master, or DZ contoll. If there are students in the air, most DZ's Ive jumped at have an arrow on the ground showing the landing direction. Saying that, there is always the monkey who decides to land in the oppposite direction and those who follow. With love in Christ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #72 August 31, 2007 Quote At times, for the most part it is set and announced on the flight line before the ride to altitude by the Jump master, or DZ contoll. If there are students in the air, most DZ's Ive jumped at have an arrow on the ground showing the landing direction. Saying that, there is always the monkey who decides to land in the oppposite direction and those who follow. No wind days seem to be the most messed up in the landing area. With communication prior to loading the A/C determining the landing direction, manifest on the loudspeaker announcing the landing direction, arrow directing the landing direction, none of these things seem to always work right. Jumpers it seems just mess the landing direction on no wind days. It's not just a phenomenon here in the U.S. then, or is it? Jumpers landing in the same area going opposite directions makes me cringe. Seen collisions that totally could've been avoided. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoop 0 #73 August 31, 2007 Quote The UK has a bit more set rules and as far as I know, make jumpers abide by them. More so than the U.S. Do you guys have issues with landing pattern on no wind days? Hi. In my albeit limited experience, on no wind days we haven't had a problem as a sensible mutual pattern is figured out beforehand. Before you board for every load (which one of the instructors is almost always onboard) you get a quick update like if the uppers have changed etc and they normally also see the likes of me out the door too to make sure we aren't too eager to get out and ruin the seperation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyL 0 #74 August 31, 2007 QuoteQuote The UK has a bit more set rules and as far as I know, make jumpers abide by them. More so than the U.S. Do you guys have issues with landing pattern on no wind days? Hi. In my albeit limited experience, on no wind days we haven't had a problem as a sensible mutual pattern is figured out beforehand. Before you board for every load (which one of the instructors is almost always onboard) you get a quick update like if the uppers have changed etc and they normally also see the likes of me out the door too to make sure we aren't too eager to get out and ruin the seperation.So you essentially have a 'loadmaster' who assist in the exit separation and relaying conditions and landing pattern? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Legs 0 #75 August 31, 2007 Yes, anyone from B license upwards can take on this role. But its usually the most experienced regular (Not TI's with customer).With love in Christ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
