Canopy Ideas....

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hi everyone,

I'm looking to get a new canopy. My main reason for doing this at this point is because I want to go from my 7 cell Spectre to a 9 cell. I currently jump a Spectre 135 loaded at 1:1. I'm kind of stuck on canopy choice and the selection to demo in Canada is pretty slim.

I really have no idea where to go. I don't want a Sabre2 because I hate the off heading openings and end cell closure. I can't get a hold of a Pilot to jump it and no one has a Safire around here. Those seem to be my only options for a 9 cell non-elliptical. Now as far as elliptical goes, a few options open up.

I'm curious where people might suggest I go at 100 jumps with my current weight and experience. What canopies would you suggest and why? Would you go elliptical, would you simply downsize etc... I have made jumps on 2 different elliptical canopies and enjoyed them, but I'm curious what the general population thinks.

I'm not looking for a reason to downsize or go elliptical so please don't read my post that way, I'm looking for opinions, advice, experiences etc... It's very hard being a light jumper and looking for canopies. I have gotten many looks when visiting other DZ's when they ask me what I'm jumping.

It goes like this:
DZ - "What do you have in there?"
Me - "Spectre 135"
DZ - "How many jumps do you have?"
Me - "Insert current jump number here"
DZ - "And how much do you weigh?"
ME - "115 lbs"
DZ - "Oh, ok, have fun"

If I were to show up with say a Stiletto 120...what would people think? Would they be like, ok, well you're light and 100 jumps is early, but there must be a reason that your instructors ok'd it, or would it go like, no, you have 100 jumps and you're jumping a 120 elliptical, go home. Or even so the same scenario with a non elliptical canopy.

ANyways, curious to see some opinions.

Thanks so much!

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[bob.dino 0]

What do you want to get out of your new canopy? Your post doesn't address that at all.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey,

Maybe that's part of my problem. I'm not really sure where I want to/should go.

I want a 9 cell for the glide ratio #1. The only other things that I want are decent openings, powerful flare and the ability for me to have a bunch of fun. I'm not interested in getting into swooping, but the occasional 90 riser to final would be nice for a little extra speed or flare power etc...

I really do like the Spectre, but I'm looking for something with a shallower glide and the capability to have a more progressive flare.

I'm just kind of stuck as to where to go. Does that make sense? I was recommended to go to a Stiletto because it's not really a full on elliptical, and the shorter recovery etc... Landing a Stiletto 135 was very nice, but the name "Spinetto" kind of has me thinking.

One option I had thought of was a Cobalt, they seem to be sold on flare power and openings and the website actually says that it can be an intermediate canopy based on W/L.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[dharma1976 0]

call up para concepts and get a demo from them for a 129 safire2

Nice flat glide, nice openings but you will need to flare stronger

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[fmmobley 0]

If you contact Aerodyne, they will send you a Pilot canopy to demo for a very small fee to cover shipping and let you jump it for two weekends.

... Marion

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

I guess I should have mentioned this above but I'm in Canada. Hence the localized market and choice problems.

I also did contact Aerodyne and they will not ship a Pilot or any canopy to Canada....crappy deal.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[JustChuteMeNow 0]

Quote

I was recommended to go to a Stiletto because it's not really a full on elliptical

A Stiletto is a fully elliptical canopy and PD does not recommend a stiletto at your wing loading except for advanced canopy pilots. That said I'm sure you are probably the exception to the rule and can ignore this guideline. For what its worth, it isn't that you can land a canopy in good conditions it is landing the canopy in bad conditions. People get hurt in this sport all the time taking short cuts.

Most guidelines also recommended that if you are going to downsize that you don't downsize and go to an elliptical canopy at the same time. Again I'm sure you can handle it based on your experience.

I almost didn't post a response because the writing is on the wall and I firmly believe that you are going to take some short cuts and wind up with some extra hardware in your body. I hope I'm wrong and I do wish you luck.

Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.

[bob.dino 0]

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I want a 9 cell for the glide ratio #1.

You've got brakes on the Spectre, right? Applying them will flatten out the glide angle for getting back from longer spots.

Quote

The only other things that I want are decent openings, powerful flare and the ability for me to have a bunch of fun. I'm not interested in getting into swooping, but the occasional 90 riser to final would be nice for a little extra speed or flare power etc...

Both the Safire2 and Pilot have great openings and nice landings. The Pilot has a very flat glide angle, but higher riser pressure. If you never wanted to swoop, I'd say go get a Pilot. If you wanted to learn to swoop in the future I'd say get a Safire2.

Both are excellent canopies.

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I'm just kind of stuck as to where to go. Does that make sense?

To be honest, you've still not really provided a compelling reason for spending two thousand dollars on a canopy. You're articulating a vague dissatisfaction with the Spectre, but not much more.

[Remster 24]

Dont take this the wrong way, but you need to educate yourself a lot more on canopies.

You say you want on heading openings: 7 cells are better at that. Eliptical canopies like the Stiletos are more prone to off-heading openings.

You say you want a better glide ratio: the Spectre actually has a flater glide then a Sabre2.http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/Spectre-Flight-Char.pdf

A 120 canopy, regardless of the wingload, is starting to be an aggresive size. Keep that in mind. Add to that a fully eliptical canopy, and you are stepping into canopies that react very quickly.

In the end, you have to take into consideration what the people who know you are telling you, but a Stiletto 120??? I dont know man... That's got incident report written all over it.

Remster

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

I figured a thread like this would cause a stir in a hurry...It was the same thing when I bought my 135. Rather than causing a "back and forth" thread, i'm just going to let everyone speak their mind. I will take the advice, weigh it with my instructors and come to a conclusion. I'm looking for an overall picture to base my decision on.

I do have a question though...has anyone jumped a Cobalt at a lighter W/L. Based on their website, I could buy an 85sqft canopy and still be considered intermediate. A 135 wouldn't even make me a beginner. Would I go and buy an 85...absolutely not. Skydivers learn from their instructors, they see things that happen around them, and they get a certain mindset, swooping and downsizing are the result of a lot of those factors. It also has to do with the manufacturers too.
http://www.atairaerodynamics.com/FAQ.html#one

I'm simply trying to make the best choice. I want to have fun, yet be safe at the same time. Although, as with any sport, there is a direct relation between enjoyment/fun, and danger. Why does skydiving exist? Because it's thrilling due to the danger factor.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Derekbox 0]

Here are my personal thoughts on canopies.

I pick a canopy for its flight characteristics not its openings. I have 2 personal rules for openings: It doesnt hurt, I dont have to cut it away. Preferably its on heading... but I can fly the openings.

Im going to cut to the chase here and fill you in on something you may not have heard yet. You are in small canopy territory, no matter the wing loading, you are flying high performance canopies. You are at significantly higher risk of both off heading openings and severe line twists just based on the size of the canopy. The openings are also very sensative to your body position on opening.

Beyond that, if you are not swooping then why an eliptical canopy? There is no real gain but much higher risk.

How many jumps do you really have on Sabre 2's? How much about the off heading openings and end cell closures are from personal experience? I have almost 1000 jumps on Sabre 2's now up to 1.8 wingloading. End cell closure occured, but it was never an issue and at worst cleared with a pump of the breaks and I never found the off headings to be an issue.

I personally highly recommend the Sabre 2 and would not discard that possibility yet. I would on the other hand, considering your situation, avoid elliptical canopies.

my 2 cents.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

I pick a canopy for its flight characteristics not its openings. I have 2 personal rules for openings: It doesnt hurt, I dont have to cut it away. Preferably its on heading... but I can fly the openings.

I disagree. There is no reason with the designs available today to sacrifice openings.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Derekbox 0]

I agree, openings dont have to be sacrificed, but I guess its a matter of opinion on what is a good/acceptable opening and for me its simple - no pain no chop. ;)

But a 100 jump skydiver looking at an 120 and/or eliptical is asking for more than some simple Sabre2 (off heading and end cell closure) issues. That was the point I was hoping to illustrate.

[piisfish 135]

Safire2
Fusion (preciaion Aerodynamics)

these are 2 canopies I tried and loved (I own a Safire2)

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[AlRedler 0]

I recently moved from a Spectre 170 to a Safire 2 149, loaded at 1.28. I love the Safire so far. The openings have all been good. The landings are fun, fairly quick on a straight in but with a flatter glide than the Spectre which makes the flare more enjoyable. In the sky, I find that spirals and riser turns feel more progressive and controllable where the Spectre reacted quickly with more of a bite.

I liked the Spectre too,(except for the one uncharacteristic hard opening), but am having fun on the Safire.

[BoilingMidnight 0]

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I can't get a hold of a Pilot to jump it and no one has a Safire around here. Those seem to be my only options for a 9 cell non-elliptical.

The Pilot is semi-elliptical.

"Iþ ik qiþa izwis, ni andstandan allis þamma unseljin."

[Remster 24]

Quote

Quote

I can't get a hold of a Pilot to jump it and no one has a Safire around here. Those seem to be my only options for a 9 cell non-elliptical.

The Pilot is semi-elliptical.

So is the Sabre 2, so is the Safire, so is the Pilot, and so is the Spectre.

Pretty much one if not the only real rectangular canopies out there is the Triathlon (unless theyt made it tapered too now).

Chris: dont take the comments from the old fuddy duddies here as trying to hold you back. A 120 in any canopy will be an aggressive canopy. What we are saying is keep that in mind.

I personally dont care what Atair says on it website, a 85 is ridiculous at 100 jumps (and its good to see you agree with this).

Try and go to a DZ with demos. The Ranch isnt that far from Southern ON or QC. Give Sonic a call and see wht he has in demos, or can arrange to get from PD, Aerodyne or Icarus.

Sabre2, Pilots and Safires would be interesting options. Dont rush to downsize: you are going to a different canopy type, so demo the same size as what you are used to, then make up your mind. You'll already have to deal with different flare styles with the different manufacturers.

Remster

[towerrat 0]

When the Stiletto was introduced you had to have 500 jumps and sign a waiver with P.D. in order to jump it. That canopy is no different now than it was then. The only thing that has changed is the mindset of the average jumper.

I would be willing to bet that if you get on a Stiletto 120 with 100 jumps you will be dead before you reach your next birthday.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes!

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey,

Thanks for the advice so far everyone. I am taking consideration of all advice and input. I realize that a 120, no matter what platform or W/L is still going to be more agressive than an identical setup at a larger size.

I was fully aware that the Spectre, Pilot, Safire etc, are "tapered" canopies.

I've been to the Ranch once and hope to make it back to another larger US DZ before the end of the season, but can't guarantee it. What makes it hard in Canada, or around my area is the fact that when you see a canopy sub 135...it is almost never non-elliptical, or crossbraced etc.

Part of the idea in my head around an elliptical canopy, is the fact that my instructors are recommending that for me. I don't know if they see my landings or whatever, but they seem to be thinking I will be good with a 120 elliptical. My instructors have thousands of jumps and are very current. I don't know what to think...are they right, am I "above-average", probably not, am I "special" (I do ride the short bus sometimes). I guess I just don't know why instructors that I fully trust and are well respected would recommend I do something that may "cause" harm to me...

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[illusioneer 0]

I would demo for sure before you buy anything. If there are so few around you can't find one to try, you will prob have trouble finding someone to buy it, if you don't like it.

[dragon2 0]

A mere 100 jumps total, over 2 years, and you're considering a canopy that I just started jumping.

Good luck with that.

Due to instructors and jumpers like yours/you, we now have a whole set of national rules to prevent 'preventable' accidents due to a stupid canopy choice. As do various other countries here.
Think these rules are there for nothing? Well since they don't apply to you anyway...
Feeling lucky?

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[tonka 2]

Hey,

I think a Sabre2 is a good canopy for you. Its a great canopy for beginners no matter what people may say. I started jumping a Sabre2 120 loaded 1.3 at about 65 jumps and it treated me great. If your canopy control and landing is good for your jump #'s there is nothing wrong with a Sabre2 120.

If you are still sketchy with landing then stick with what you have for a while. Since your instructors are recommending something elliptical I would guess you are the kind of person who has no problem flaring a canopy and landing softly. In that case find a Sabre2 120 to jump for a while and then get a Sabre2 107.

Im not sure you want an elliptical as of yet. I jump a Cobalt with a 1.7 WL now and think it is a great canopy but unless you are wanting to learn to swoop there is no point in getting something made for that. The Sabre2 has plenty of performance, speed, and is a good canopy to learn to swoop on.

I noticed that once my WL got above 1.2 I had much more fun under canopy. Turbulence pretty much went away and landings were much easier. (Wind didnt try and drag me around while and after landing)

I have never had problems coming in and landing softly so I progressed a lil quickly by most peoples standards. My instructors watch me land every week and have never had any issues with my landings and quick canopy progression. You seem to be in the same category as me so I see no problem in you getting into something smaller.

Just remember I have not seen you land and I could be completly wrong so dont just listen to me but also dont just listen to all the people saying you are going to get hurt. Eeryone hears that stuff when on the forums here. Just don't do anything stupid, listen to your instructors, and learn from experienced jumpers you can trust. (People your instructors would approve of you learning from.)

Be safe and blue skies

[NWFlyer 2]

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I've been to the Ranch once and hope to make it back to another larger US DZ before the end of the season, but can't guarantee it.

Then what's the rush? The opportunity to buy a new canopy will still be there next season.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[RkyMtnHigh 0]

I loved loved loved BOTH of my Sabre 2s however now I'm temporarily stuck with a Vengeance and am prepared for a cutaway on every jump

_________________________________________

[peregrinerose 0]

Have you asked your instructors to tell you exactly what they mean by 'elliptical'? And exactly why they are making that recommendation? If you don't understand exactly why the recommendations are being made, you probably shouldn't just be blindly making guesses regarding what canopy to get.

Why do you want to downsize at the same time as changing canopy design? Have you gone through the downsizing recommendations that have been posted on here more than once (all the things that you should be able to do on your current canopy prior to downsizing.. things like landing on rears, accuracy, etc)?

Do you understand that at the canopy sizes that you are talking about, wing loading is less an issue than just the size of the canopy. Smaller canopy means shorter lines. A malfunction will get really ugly really fast. You will have less margin for error loading a 135 at 1:1 than someone who's jumping a 190 loaded at 1:1. Keep that in mind with regard to downsizing. Maybe consider staying at a 135.

With regard to your Spectre, as a couple of others posted, it has a flatter glide ratio than a Sabre2 (per PD), and I've seen people swoop Spectres. Get your goals in mind more concretely for what you want in a canopy and think hard about downsizing before doing it.

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda