Looking straight down - seeing someone waving off..

[reinhart36 0]

So, I made a serious mistake this weekend and would like to share the experience for others to learn from.

Firstly, the point of the story:

People jumping with you either need to be IN the formation or WAY OUT, not hanging out nearby.

The story:

Myself and three others were preparing for a 4-way RW dive shortly before the flight. At the last minute we invited a 5th to come along.

He said he'd just like to follow us out the door and come watch us. Myself and my group consented, and we made the jump.

I never saw the 5th guy in free fall during the planned RW work.

However, upon tracking apart for opening, I look straight down about 50 feet and see the 5th guy waving off to open.... I about soiled myself.

I quickly changed direction, as the guy was apparently tracking in the same direction as me, and avoided a major accident - this time.

The moral of the story again:

Don't ever let people "hang out" near you in the air, since you might not be able to keep track of their location. They either need to get all the way in, or get the hell away.

Lesson learned on my end...

[TALONSKY 0]

The general rule of thumb that I use is if you go low move off to the side off the formation (keeping them in sight by turning side ways and turning your head to the side to watch them) and try until break off to make it back into the formation.
When skydiving in a group and one does not make it to the formation upon break off all should keep their eyes peeled looking where the jumper might be. The jumper that did not make it to the formation should always keep the formation if view so they know where to go at break off for clear air space.

[DougH 270]

I don't like lurkers. If you would like to join the jump your a free to do so. If you would like to film the jump and pull in place that is cool too. But I don't want some one lurking, it makes break off less predictable and it adds extra risk to my skydiving in return for no added benifit.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[TALONSKY 0]

The original post and my post are about a person who is part of a formation that went low and did not make it to the formation. There was nothing in either post about a lurker.
Kirk

[DougH 270]

Read again.

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He said he'd just like to follow us out the door and come watch us. Myself and my group consented, and we made the jump.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[TALONSKY 0]

My bad, I agree totally about not having a lurker.

[chrismgtis 0]

It's about as freaky when you look up and see everyone in your 13 way above you and you have no choice but to pull very soon. That was a little scary.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[Snowflake 0]

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So, I made a serious mistake this weekend and would like to share the experience for others to learn from.

Firstly, the point of the story:

People jumping with you either need to be IN the formation or WAY OUT, not hanging out nearby.

The story:

Myself and three others were preparing for a 4-way RW dive shortly before the flight. At the last minute we invited a 5th to come along.

He said he'd just like to follow us out the door and come watch us. Myself and my group consented, and we made the jump.

I never saw the 5th guy in free fall during the planned RW work.

However, upon tracking apart for opening, I look straight down about 50 feet and see the 5th guy waving off to open.... I about soiled myself.

I quickly changed direction, as the guy was apparently tracking in the same direction as me, and avoided a major accident - this time.

The moral of the story again:

Don't ever let people "hang out" near you in the air, since you might not be able to keep track of their location. They either need to get all the way in, or get the hell away.

Lesson learned on my end...

You didn't learn the whole lesson. You let this guy lurk. Did you ask about his skill level? Did you discuss the dive plan? Did you discuss what to do if the dive went to shit ie he goes low. I'm pretty sure that the 4 of you discussed this, but did you have this discussion with the 5th guy on the ride up(I'm assuming he joined as you were getting ready to load).

My point is that it doesn't sound like the fifth guy had a plan and you guys didn't impose one on him. Thats a great way to end up where you were the other day. Sounds like you expected him to know not to be under you, but unfortunately not everybody knows what to do in given situations. Thats why the dive needs to be spelled out quite clearly before you climb out the door.

As an aside. I would have been looking all over for him from break off till I pulled

[BillyVance 34]

You've got to always be aware of where everyone is, especially at breakoff and pull time. I had a similar experience, but not with a lurker. 6 way goes to shit just before breakoff and one jumper ends up 50 feet directly below me, panics, grabs her helmet and reaches for her PC. NO WAVE OFF!!! It took an instant for me to realize what was gonna happen and I immediately went into a track and she shot up 10 feet behind me. Needless to say, I was pissed. I just thank God I happened to have my eyes exactly where they needed to be at the right time.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[CrazyL 0]

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I don't like lurkers. If you would like to join the jump your a free to do so. If you would like to film the jump and pull in place that is cool too. But I don't want some one lurking, it makes break off less predictable and it adds extra risk to my skydiving in return for no added benifit.

All true. i'm cameraman for skysurf team for sometime now, occasionally a jumper would like to lurk. Rarely will we allow it. Fall rate changes are drastic and horizontal movement happens. We allowed a lurker on 2 jumps this weekend, all was well. We had spent some time ( a few hours) the night before with the lurker hanging out and visiting about all things skydiving. We covered the bases as far as what we would expect of him if he were allowed to jump with us. He did as he was told and performed well. He was prepared for what could happen if he did end up in the danger zones and how he could injure or kill any one of us which in turn trained him on how to perform the dives without injuring or killing us. He dressed for success for the fall rate and did well. Lot's of training and preparedness went into these jumps. To have someone lurking a jump without a really good briefing is asking for trouble.

[DougH 270]

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It's about as freaky when you look up and see everyone in your 13 way above you and you have no choice but to pull very soon. That was a little scary.

That is your sign that *just maybe* the jump was over your head and your current abilities.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[Andy9o8 0]

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It's about as freaky when you look up and see everyone in your 13 way above you and you have no choice but to pull very soon. That was a little scary.

That is your sign that *just maybe* the jump was over your head and your current abilities.

Agreed.
It's my personal nightmare scenario, since the first skydiving fatality I ever personally knew was a freefall-into-canopy collision, and it has stayed with me ever since.

And although the general rule is "the low man has right of way", if you go low, and look up and see people above you at pull time, you have a duty not just to track out of the way, but - if need be - to smoke it down waaay, scary low if vertical separation is everyone's last, best hope. If you're not prepared to be willing to do that, you've got no business being on the jump.

[JohnMitchell 14]

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I had a similar experience, but not with a lurker. 6 way goes to shit just before breakoff and one jumper ends up 50 feet directly below me, ***

Vskydiver had a similar experience on a 10 way years ago. She thinks she may have even kicked the canopy as it went by. She had a quiet, private discussion with the offender and sorted him all out.




Don't let a crappy jumper lurk and go low on you. If you really want to get the guy in the air, do a 2 way with him so you can keep an eye on him.

When tracking off, scan but concentrate on down and in front of you. That's where anygthing likely to kill you is going to come from. If you're above someone waving off, veer to the left or right and keep tracking. It's better to go a little low than to risk a severe collision.

Get good at tracking and you'll usually find yourself all alone at pull time.

[Squeak 17]

no one seems to have mentioned ??
If you and the guy 50 feet below were tracking in the same direction,,,then why did you not see him untill he was waving off.
As high man it;s your resonsibility to look below and ensure you are tacking solo.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[reinhart36 0]

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no one seems to have mentioned ??
If you and the guy 50 feet below were tracking in the same direction,,,then why did you not see him untill he was waving off.
As high man it;s your resonsibility to look below and ensure you are tacking solo.

I had just begun my track when I saw him. It seems he'd hardly tracked at all before pulling.

I 'm assuming he'd tracked the same direction I was headed, because that's the direction his head was aimed as he was waving off.

It took my eyes a second to catch the movement below me.

[Fast 0]

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no one seems to have mentioned ??
If you and the guy 50 feet below were tracking in the same direction,,,then why did you not see him untill he was waving off.
As high man it;s your resonsibility to look below and ensure you are tacking solo.

I had just begun my track when I saw him. It seems he'd hardly tracked at all before pulling.

I 'm assuming he'd tracked the same direction I was headed, because that's the direction his head was aimed as he was waving off.

It took my eyes a second to catch the movement below me.

I have been on some skydives where a person who was in the formation who thinks they are an awesome tracker had ended up "below" me pulling. It's the types that say things like, "I am an awesome tracker, I dive down and build up a bunch of speed and then flatten out and go really far." I hate dealing with those types. The best and easiest solution is to just keep tracking though cause they are so much lower than you that you have time to get out from over them. I notice this mostly on freefly jumps.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[Bill_K 0]

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look up and see people above you at pull time, you have a duty not just to track out of the way, but - if need be - to smoke it down waaay, scary low if vertical separation is everyone's last, best hope. If you're not prepared to be willing to do that, you've got no business being on the jump.

Been there done that. However I was in the group (2 way) that left after the group before (3 way). We gave the 7 seconds of exit separation (verified by group after us), I cleared them by looking and then we did our skydive. We get to break off and each of us track off perpendicular to jump run and wala what do I see but a deploying canopy coming up way to dam close to me. In other words my fear was if I pull at my normal pull altitude, and my opening is off heading, we are going to hit head on. On the plane we had already established that we were both pulling at the same altitude (the two groups) and use group size to establish our exit order.

There are two things that likely happened, a.)we drifted down jump run during our skydive; and b.)the person coming at me tracked UP jump run. I went another 1000 feet while tracking and then deployed as normal. So the moral of my story, it may not even be the fact that you went low on a formation that forces you to "smoke it down" to avoid an accident. Sometimes we have to make 'adjustments' to the plan to remain safe, a.k.a. alive!!

[chrismgtis 0]

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And although the general rule is "the low man has right of way", if you go low, and look up and see people above you at pull time, you have a duty not just to track out of the way, but - if need be - to smoke it down waaay, scary low if vertical separation is everyone's last, best hope. If you're not prepared to be willing to do that, you've got no business being on the jump.

Starting a track at 2500 ft. at my experience level is far too risky the way that I see it and a "hell no". It was a one time thing anyway (for a long time - no interest in doing anything like that really).

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[peregrinerose 0]

Why would you be starting to track at 2500??? If you were on a 13 way, breakoff would have been MUCH higher than that.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[skydave238 0]

I agree.

If you're not in the formation at break altitude, then get ur ass outa there. Were you watchin your altitude chris?

Ready...Set...Go..!

SkydiveSwakop

[fallfast69 2]

How many of you look over your shoulder during your wave-off or just prior to tossing the PC? Just curious...I've avoided a few ugly situations by doing this

Jon

[CrazyL 0]

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How many of you look over your shoulder during your wave-off or just prior to tossing the PC? Just curious...I've avoided a few ugly situations by doing this

Jon

I do , and try to look over the shoulder , straight above me, some dives I do barrel rolls in the track to see the airspace above me too.

[Andy9o8 0]

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How many of you look over your shoulder during your wave-off or just prior to tossing the PC? Just curious...I've avoided a few ugly situations by doing this

Jon

Always.

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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Don't ever let people "hang out" near you in the air, since you might not be able to keep track of their location. They either need to get all the way in, or get the hell away.

That's a good rule to live by.

Generally, if I'm doing RW with my buddies and someone comes by and asks if they can just "lurk" the formation and watch, the answer is "No", you're welcome to join us on the next jump (or maybe this one depending on how orgainzed we are yet), but no lurkers.

Lurkers can cause a lot of problems... getting under the formation and/or becoming a "surprise" to folks in the formation at breakoff like the OP described being the "classic" issue.


On a similar, but somewhat related issue in general, poor break offs & tracks (or a plain lack of consideration or ignorance regarding others around you at break-off) when doing RW leading to folks dumping under others is a safety issue that has to be addressed immedieatly and firmly. I can think of two specific incidents where folks dumped under a cameraman because they didn't tack or did a shitty track and were of the opinion that everyone else left., so they were okay.

Personally, I can recall being on medium sized RW load where the cameraman went low (not on purpose) and I lost track of him. At break-off, I turned to track and discovered I was going right over top of him and I watched him pull / pitch & I bareley cleared him as his trash deployed. He never saw me. On the ground his response was, "The formation broke, so I pulled, that's what cameramen do, pull when the formation breaks, right?"... yeah, if you're ABOVE the formaiton where you're supposed to be!

Folks wanting to dump in place on RW loads is another pet peave of mine. It usually goes something like, "I want to fly my canopy more" or "I just got new gear" or "I just got this canopy re-lined or patched"... so I want all you guys to track off and then I'll just dump in place a few seconds after y'all leave. This is a bad habbit to let folks get into... i.e., one day they'll foget and dump under someone. If you want to fly your canopy more or have gear fear or just want to pull higher for some reason... go do a solo... otherwise, track like everyone else does at the bottom of the skydive.