bushwarp4 0 #1 May 23, 2012 I've become very comfortable on my Sabre2 190 and I am planning to downsize in the near future. I'm also going to be going down to sea level (usual DZ was at 5000 ft MSL) which makes a significant difference in how the canopy flies. I was told that I should go to a 150 since at sea level that will fly like a 170 will at altitude. What do you think? Is this too much of a jump? Also, any suggestions on types of canopies? I am considering either a Pilot, a Safire2, or just sticking with a Sabre2. Thanks! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeNReN 0 #2 May 23, 2012 QuoteI've become very comfortable on my Sabre2 190 and I am planning to downsize in the near future. I'm also going to be going down to sea level (usual DZ was at 5000 ft MSL) which makes a significant difference in how the canopy flies. I was told that I should go to a 150 since at sea level that will fly like a 170 will at altitude. What do you think? Is this too much of a jump? Also, any suggestions on types of canopies? I am considering either a Pilot, a Safire2, or just sticking with a Sabre2. Thanks! Who are you? How many jumps do you have? What licence do you have? How many jumps on the 190? Can you land downwind? Can you land crosswind? Can you land uphill? Is your mother hot? Can you do a flare turn at 50ft? Who told you to go to a 150 because of LZ altitude difference? Can you tell us the difference between knowing what to ask on DZ.com and what not to ask? Do you have a hot sister? Do you have a thick skin? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bushwarp4 0 #3 May 23, 2012 B License, a little over 100 jumps, most of those on the sabre with a few on a safire 1 mixed in. Yes to downwind and crosswind landings, never had to land uphill... I've jumped the 190 at sea level and at altitude it was very noticeable faster at altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeNReN 0 #4 May 23, 2012 My post was half in jest awaiting the responce from the resident DZ.com skygods..who would normally rip you a new asshole for asking such a question... What is your wingload on the 190? and on the 150? (save me the math ) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bushwarp4 0 #5 May 23, 2012 I'm at a 0.98 right now and the 150 would be 1.23. I realize that's a huge step which is why I don't think the change in elevation will make up for the difference... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
degeneration 5 #6 May 23, 2012 well, you seem to have 2 options, each with 2 generalised outcomes... Option 1) Get a 170. Possible outcomes, 1) it is exactly what you were wanting, you enjoy it have fun and build up your skills to progress to a 150 at a later date. 2) At sea level it is a bit tame for you, and not the step down you were hoping for. You get disappointed with your choice, so move to get a 150 asap. Option 2) Get a 150. Possible outcomes, 1) it is exactly what you were wanting, you enjoy it have fun and build up your skills to progress to a smaller canopy if you choose at a later date. 2) Even at sea level it is a bit too responsive and fast for you, you are disappointed with your choice and feel each jump is a risk that you might hurt yourself. Obviously there are many other outcomes in between and beyond. I don't know you or your jumping, so at the end of the day it is your choice and the best people to guide your choice are the experienced people that know you - any instructors at your DZ, the chief instructor or whoever - but as long as you are aware of the possible outcomes and are willing to accept the risks involved, then make the choice you are comfortable with. For what it is worth, I was jumping a Pilot 150 at jump 105 with a WL of 1.2, and I loved it. I had moved off of an old shitty PD170 with little flare on to it, and there was a world of difference for the better!Sky Switches - Affordable stills camera tongue switches and conversion adaptors, supporting various brands of camera (Canon, Sony, Nikon, Panasonic). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 143 #7 May 23, 2012 I've not jumped a 150 but I can say that going from a 190 where I was comfortable to a 170 was a big step. I am just about used to the170 now for basic landings - including my first downwind landing on a 170 last weekend (light winds and pattern was agreed before take off). In all honesty looking at things I would have been better off getting 200 or 300 jumps on the 190 first. I plan on mastering the 170 and can see that just doing a new manouver 10 times before moving on, is going to take about 150 jumps to accumulate a few more basic skills.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hokierower 0 #8 May 23, 2012 QuoteI've not jumped a 150 but I can say that going from a 190 where I was comfortable to a 170 was a big step. I am just about used to the170 now for basic landings - including my first downwind landing on a 170 last weekend (light winds and pattern was agreed before take off). In all honesty looking at things I would have been better off getting 200 or 300 jumps on the 190 first. I plan on mastering the 170 and can see that just doing a new manouver 10 times before moving on, is going to take about 150 jumps to accumulate a few more basic skills. That's your experience, mine was different. I had planned on going from a Spectre 190 to a Sabre2 150 at about 200 jumps. Talked to a couple of very experienced TM/Canopy Pilots who recommended spending a bit of time on a 170 first, so I went to Spectre 170 @ jump 105. It was a smooth transition and the first time I jumped it I had a smile on my face. I'm DS'ing to a Sabre2 150 very soon, but that's after landing it downwind, crosswind, on an incline, carving to avoid an obstacle during my surf, flat turn at low altitude after my set-up got altered, etc (all landings stood up except for the downwinder, that was a slide on my butt). Spending 200-300 jumps on a 190 would have driven me nuts. Harness input doesn't result in anything, front risers 90 landings don't shed enough altitude to be safe, wind penetration isn't that great, and it was a thick wing so gathering speed was difficult. I would suggest that the OP demo a Sabre2 170. You won't have to buy the canopy and it will give you a feel for how the canopy reacts differently at sea level. If it's still slow, demo a 150 and see how that works. Don't forget, the density altitude at a East Coast DZ during the summer can get pretty high so even though you're at sea level, your canopy will fly like it's at a much higher altitude. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #9 May 23, 2012 Not directed at you. One of the most ignorant things to say is "that canopy was too big for me". Oh really ??? Having heard that from a 180lbs 50 year old guy with 60 jumps regarding a Spectre190 was just mind boggling. My point is that there is zero reason for you to skip a size when downsizing. Feel free to disagree. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joellercoaster 6 #10 May 23, 2012 QuoteI don't think the change in elevation will make up for the difference... You are right.-- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hokierower 0 #11 May 23, 2012 QuoteNot directed at you. One of the most ignorant things to say is "that canopy was too big for me". Oh really ??? Having heard that from a 180lbs 50 year old guy with 60 jumps regarding a Spectre190 was just mind boggling. My point is that there is zero reason for you to skip a size when downsizing. Feel free to disagree. Not disagreeing. I think the time I've spent on the 170 has been very educational. I am guilty of skipping a size when downsizing, as I went from a Spectre 230 when I was a student (16 jumps) to a Spectre 210 (4 jumps) to a Spectre 190. I didn't skip it entirely, but I didn't fly it long enough to really fly it. The OP should demo before he makes up his mind and commits money to it. But I also believe that jumping down 40 SF is a bad idea, which is why I threw in the density altitude comment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinciflies 0 #12 May 23, 2012 Quote The OP should demo before he makes up his mind and commits money to it. This. My own experience was that jumping a 200, 190 and 170 were all fairly similar. I felt a big change to a 150, then another big change to the 135 (because I also went fully elliptical at that stage) and not much of a change to the 120 which is where I am at now. Everyone's perceptions of a canopy differ and it is a very personal thing. IMO the sensible thing to do is to demo a 170 at sea level and see if it gives you what you want. If it does, buy one. If you still think you want more performance - demo the 150. If that one scares the shit out of you, then go back to the 170. Be honest with yourself about whether you feel like you're flying the canopy or just hanging in terror under it and dreading the landing. Option (b) means you're not ready. Personally I always ensure I can downwind and land on the rears only as well as doing accelerated landings before I downsized. If I can land my existing canopy in an accelerated flight mode, then I am happy that I can start on the smaller one with straight in approaches and build up from there. With any downsize, it's "back to basics" - relearning all the skills and characteristics of the new canopy, eg: stall points, flare, riser pressure, performance enveloping etc, etc, etc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
demoknite 0 #13 May 25, 2012 Considering most DZs are flat (even ones in mountainous areas), where does one find the requisite incline before downsizing? Im still jumping a 260 because I havent been able to find one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nigel99 143 #14 May 26, 2012 Quote Considering most DZs are flat (even ones in mountainous areas), where does one find the requisite incline before downsizing? Im still jumping a 260 because I havent been able to find one. I know of a dz in Kentucky that isn't flat.Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
