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mnischalke

Something to make you think...

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>It was in some respects an assault from me on Jraf but frankly given the
>circumstances I feel it was deserved . . . .

Well, I agree that he deserves some grief for that position, but the rules here are no personal attacks. You can attack his _position_ all you want; if you want to say that his post shows no respect for the very people who allow him to speak his mind, then that's fine. You can't, however, call him a jerk (for example.) It can be annoying sometimes to have to make that distinction, but I think that rule makes this forum a better place.

>they deserve some respect reguardless of how they met their end!!!

I think that's absolutely true, but I also think that other people have the right to disagree with you (and me.)

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Aggie, Christian or not, people need to start placing some thoughts to making change. We all need to look to some other form of making a difference. Didn't Christ himself teach to turn the other cheek? so why can't we look for other means than war to make a change. War, and bad guys will always be around. That is true. does it mean we should continue to pursue it?


:)Christ also stated "We should not cast pearls before swine" in other words, don't patronize your opposition and those that should be rubuked for their words and deeds.
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And I don't expect to be mourned after I buy it



If your anything in person like you are here, don't worry, you won't be.

You could have chosen not to post what you knew was going to be an inflammatory opinion.

Although the reason why he died is not clear to you, you should reflect on the fact that he did die while serving in the United States armed forces. He died believing he was protecting the rights of people like you and I. That in itself is worthy of respect, not your mindless driveling response.

As for usable organs, obviously your heart isn't one of them.

BSBD
Larry

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No matter which side you choose to take on this matter there is still a death involved here. To say he was doing his job is correct but to equate his death to a trivial side effect of his job is about as just as saying a skydiver who went in got what he deserved since he was jumping out of a perfectly good plane. You don't have to agree with the war in Iraq or in any other conflict, it's your right but at a minimum you can at least support the troops. They are the ones who have stepped up and taken on the task of representing the US with indifference to any type of agenda. If there is a group of people you should be upset with it is the politicians, for they are the ones who make the decissons to send troops into battle.

Lets no loose sight of what the topic at hand is here, wheather the a fore mentioned story is true or not. The bottom line is that US troops have died in combat, a human being has died doing what he felt was an honorable thing, answering the call of his country. If nothing else recognize some one has passed and treat it as you would want it treated if it was someone in your family who had passed. For God's sake have a little bit of self respect and dignity for the dead if you can't have it for yourself.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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Scott I do not mourn every fallen solider, but there is nothing wrong with that.

On other hand it is my oppinion that the general public has fallen into a media induced frenzy not very far from what Joe McCarthy used to preach. The text here is in fact a skillful piece of propaganda. Very similar to Nazi or Soviet pieces.

On another note, don't you think that feeding this frenzy will render our nation incapable of leading a war where soldiers die like flies every day? We are sheding crockodile tears over less than 100 dead. What will the public say when one of these days the body count will be in the 100's per hour? One has to admitt that the Iraquis were a little less than enthusiastic to fight and the topografical circumstances were rather favorable to us - big flat open country with no trees.
jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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obviously your heart isn't one of them.

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yes it is.....



maybe where his lower extremities are concerned. But you'll never convince me he gives a shit about anything given his responses in this post.

On a different note, assuming your "the" Kristen: If you answered "Yes", I wish you both the best.

BSBD
'In an insane society a sane person seems insane.' Mr. Spock

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My fine friend you are entirely right. I care about all this as much as the fine Generals of our armed forces do. It's all a statistic. I don't care about statistics. Why should I care more than our leaders?
And to add wood to your fire - I generally don't care.

I care about my loved ones. The world is quite well off without me.
jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

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Ok, I can't resist this thread, so here we go.
First of all I am a Desert Storm vet. I was not in the military because I thought it was macho. I joined the Navy because I wanted to serve my country. I felt is was the right thing to do and I have to say I get a little pissed off when I hear people bad mouth the military and what they do. If it weren't for our military we wouldn't enjoy the freedoms we have today. In case some of you did not know it took a war just to have a USA. That said, one of the rights taht we fought for and continue to fight for is freedom of speech. Although I disagree with the anti-military posts here, everyone has a right to their opinion.

As for the Christian thing. Yes I am a Christian, and yes I am in school to become a youth pastor. Dave is correct in his theology. As a matter of fact the Bible says, actually let me rephrase that. Jesus said,"6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet." Matthew 24:6 . In case you think I have taken this out of context read Matthew 24:4-31. This is Jesus talking about the end days. There have been wars throughout history, some commanded by God, others not. Wars will continue until the Battle of Armageddon(Revelation 16) when Jesus will ride out of Heaven on a white horse to make war. He is coming at that time as Conquerer and King. (Revelations19 and 2 Thess. 1:7-10) Then Christ will establish the 1000 years of peace on earth after which will be the final battle. (Revelations 20)
I am not writing all this to say Jesus is a war monger or that the world is coming to an end. I am simply showing that as is stated in Ecclesiastes 3:1-10 there is a time for everything. There is a time for war. I believe this was one of those times. Sorry this turned into a theological debate, but remember I didn't start it. I just want to make sure we keep the record straight. If you need more scripture to back up what I am saying I will be happy to provide it.

Blue Skies
Steve
Ok, so it's pink, but I'm secure in my manhood, and I still look cool coming in under it!

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What will the public say when one of these days the body count will be in the 100's per hour?



They will be just as upset. Does 100 deaths carry more weight than 1, 5, 20? While a 100 deaths is a tragedy it is just as tragic if 1 individual has lost his life serving his country as is 100 or 10000. The story might read a bit jingoistic but it is based in fact that an individual has died.

Again, if you wish to blame anyone or group it should be the politicians and then the media for the way they whip the public into a paranoid frenzy , be it during 9-11 or during this war. The average person can pry himself away from the tv or news paper long enough to realize the mania that it is inducing and deal with it accordingly.
"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

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one death is tragic enough several makes you think it is pointless. However, a lot of hte deaths but not all were special forces and tbh how many of those guys died with a grin on there face knowing what they did an loved?It is swings n rounabouts but, there are a significant number who have done the biz under normal circumstances and have come home. Lets pray the rest do!

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."

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I completely agree on the sadness of the death of one. However I am not as optimistic on the reaction of the public in case of a larger conflict. The public has been spoiled by the last two wars. When the real need is there it might back out. That is what worries me.

As to the kid who died - real sad.

As to the text - I still believe it is complete propaganda. Very bad indeed. It could be used as a text in the Volkischer Beobachter with regards to a fallen hero coming back from Stalingrad. As a matter of fact I remeber reading something nearly the same, while doing some research.
jraf

Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui.
Muff #3275

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Ok, I can't resist this thread, so here we go.
First of all I am a Desert Storm vet. I was not in the military because I thought it was macho. I joined the Navy because I wanted to serve my country. I felt is was the right thing to do and I have to say I get a little pissed off when I hear people bad mouth the military and what they do. If it weren't for our military we wouldn't enjoy the freedoms we have today. In case some of you did not know it took a war just to have a USA. That said, one of the rights taht we fought for and continue to fight for is freedom of speech. Although I disagree with the anti-military posts here, everyone has a right to their opinion.

As for the Christian thing. Yes I am a Christian, and yes I am in school to become a youth pastor. Dave is correct in his theology. As a matter of fact the Bible says, actually let me rephrase that. Jesus said,"6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet." Matthew 24:6 . In case you think I have taken this out of context read Matthew 24:4-31. This is Jesus talking about the end days. There have been wars throughout history, some commanded by God, others not. Wars will continue until the Battle of Armageddon(Revelation 16) when Jesus will ride out of Heaven on a white horse to make war. He is coming at that time as Conquerer and King. (Revelations19 and 2 Thess. 1:7-10) Then Christ will establish the 1000 years of peace on earth after which will be the final battle. (Revelations 20)
I am not writing all this to say Jesus is a war monger or that the world is coming to an end. I am simply showing that as is stated in Ecclesiastes 3:1-10 there is a time for everything. There is a time for war. I believe this was one of those times. Sorry this turned into a theological debate, but remember I didn't start it. I just want to make sure we keep the record straight. If you need more scripture to back up what I am saying I will be happy to provide it.




Talk about death? Are you afraid to jump one day and see how it is not to pull that ripcord? No, because it is just like jumping out of that plane the first time, you dont know what to expect, so youre afraid of it. We all feel sorry for this guy that died, but we're all gonna join him someday. Death is the reality of life.

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Talk about death? Are you afraid to jump one day and see how it is not to pull that ripcord? No, because it is just like jumping out of that plane the first time, you dont know what to expect, so youre afraid of it. We all feel sorry for this guy that died, but we're all gonna join him someday. Death is the reality of life.



Umm, I'm a little confused about your reply to my post. Maybe you just replied to the wrong post. I agree that death is a part of life, but I do not fear it because I know what I have to look forward to.

Blue Skies
Steve
Ok, so it's pink, but I'm secure in my manhood, and I still look cool coming in under it!

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Thank you for sharing the original post. It was very touching. The people on the plane showed a lot of respect for someone who gave all he had for our country.

May you have blue skies forever. Thank you for your utmost sacrifice.

To everyone who has posted. You all already know Jraf's position on the war and how he feels about those who serve and protect his rights to feel that way. Nothing you can say or do will ever change that opinion. Sometimes it is better to ignore that opinion rather than feed it. Just my opinion.

Lisa

--
Hot Mama
At least you know where you stand even if it is in a pile of shit.

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To everyone who has posted.


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Sometimes it is better to ignore that opinion rather than feed it. Just my opinion.


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Hot Mama [Monkey]



When Mama talks, you guys better listen.

Wendy W.
There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

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Talk about death? Are you afraid to jump one day and see how it is not to pull that ripcord? No, because it is just like jumping out of that plane the first time, you dont know what to expect, so youre afraid of it. We all feel sorry for this guy that died, but we're all gonna join him someday. Death is the reality of life.



Umm, I'm a little confused about your reply to my post. Maybe you just replied to the wrong post. I agree that death is a part of life, but I do not fear it because I know what I have to look forward to.




Well, its kind of personal. Im planning my own death out in about 10 years or so because I dont like the idea of getting old. It isnt going to be by skydiving so not to get any ideas. So for me death is a part of life and its a reality.

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Billvon:

In Revelations (I'm too lazy to look up the chapter, and for some reason, I can't quite recall it off the top of my head right now), when the 2nd coming is discussed, one of the last things that will happen is a war like no other war before, for Isreal.

Peppermint: Yes, the teachings of Jesus are of love; however, if you're a Christian, then you believe a few basic things: 1. God is the same today, tomorrow, yesterday and forever, 2. That Jesus is the son of God, 3. That the interpretation of the Holy Trinity is that Jesus is the son of God, but he is also God and the Holy Spirit is God's (Jesus') spirit manifested on Earth until his 2nd coming (since the Holy Spirit will leave with the 2nd coming, bringing about the beginning of the downfall of earth, due to the lack of God's spirit being on the earth, for the next 1000 years).

So, if you proclaim those things, then we still serve the same God that lead Moses out of Egypt, the same God that told Noah to build the Arc, the same God that lead his children to kill more then a few complete cities (in His name) to give them the promised land. Thus, we have a god that is most obviously not against war.

If you go back to Hebrew text of the 10 commandments, "thou shall not kill" means more along the lines of "thou shall not murder."


Look, just because I didn't take the time to write out my entire thought in the first post, doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. Oh, and I was a seminary type program for a couple years ("Master's Commision").
--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

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