0
buba07

Late turns?!

Recommended Posts

Quote

Quote

I'm pretty sure that's bad advice unless the turn is necessary to avoid an unforseen danger



But thats exactly the point! Saying "Dont turn low" makes some people fly straight into a tree.



heh - the problem for me was the lack of defining what sort of turn was bad under 500ft. I was a remote control (radio) parachute, but the equilivent of a 747 in turn rate.

A student canopy has enough excess lift to land without being in full flight, but it's a bad habit to suggest for the pattern. Was is the Scott Miller value for recovery to full flight - was it 12 seconds?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

First you propose a crazy solution...



Really? What was it that Mykel said?

Quote

Good points to a good idea, no, a great idea.



Since you're tuning out Jason, you wont hear this. My illustrative response to your question earlier (about turns under 50') may have been right on the money. But I'm a "low timer", right? I hope you're never face-to-face with powerlines at 50 feet. Or if you are, I hope you get video.

:)
SCR #14809

"our attitude is the thing most capable of keeping us safe"
(look, grab, look, grab, peel, punch, punch, arch)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

You seem to be confused about the difference between the word "limit" and the concept of preclusion.



No kidding, that is why I ask so many questions cuz I am easily confuzed, I only have an 8th grade education and find it difficult to keep up with you intelligencia types.
The only "pre" I know about is precum and don't give a flying witches tit about all that edjumakated stuff. One of the few things I do give a ratsass about is skydiving students getting advice outside of their instructors guidance in the particular program and gear they are learning on. But people that have no business giving guidance to skydiving students gosta feel important and talk about physics and bullshit like that. I guess individuals do not realize that they can injure or kill a student by trying to be "helpful"...

By "SOLO" I meaned a non-tandem skydive.

My bad - not only am I uneducated, I am also a half-breed - ya know - mixed up genitics and all that :P...
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

But people that have no business giving guidance to skydiving students gosta feel important and talk about physics and bullshit like that. ...



Agreed. Physics is BS and completely irrelevant to skydiving.
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Quote

But people that have no business giving guidance to skydiving students gosta feel important and talk about physics and bullshit like that. ...



Agreed. Physics is BS and completely irrelevant to skydiving.


At least to your average skydiving student eh?
Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

heh - the problem for me was the lack of defining what sort of turn was bad under 500ft.


Why would that help a student?
I'm surprised you would ask that...especially after a comment above about students who get the "don't turn low" directive and wind up sitting in a tree.

All you expect from a student is a long final into the wind.
I expect much more than that. Using their heads is one of them. Knowing HOW to avoid obstacles without getting hurt is another.

They can learn other type of landings later.
...if they survive the first one.



Somehow, and I hope I'm wrong, I get the idea that you are only teaching them what to do if everything goes perfectly right.

Back to "giving advice". I think it would benefit us all if any advice offered is precluded with "talk to your instructors"...regardless of the experience and knowledge of the advisor. Maybe that would go a long way towards drilling the concept into students' heads that they should ask about it before they blindly try it.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's just add another line under "in sport" that lists the persons highest instructional rating. More information that someone can see when they are reading a post w/o going into profiles :o:S:P

Honestly though, trying to limit the forum as was described by the one poster isn't going to work. People should have to read a "waiver style" page with lots of check boxes when they sign up to the site that lays out all these rules and ideas. Haha yeah... thats it! [:/]:D

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Somehow, and I hope I'm wrong, I get the idea that you are only teaching them what to do if everything goes perfectly right.



You cant teach everything in a FJC. Period. How many FJC teach flat turns? Should they? Again, with so many student not even comprehending "landing into the wind" and how to do that in real life, you are telling me you teach how to deal with a low altitude accident avoidance? Come on...
Remster

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Somehow, and I hope I'm wrong, I get the idea that you are only teaching them what to do if everything goes perfectly right.



You cant teach everything in a FJC. Period. How many FJC teach flat turns? Should they? Again, with so many student not even comprehending "landing into the wind" and how to do that in real life, you are telling me you teach how to deal with a low altitude accident avoidance? Come on...



It is taught in my DZ's first jump course. I don't half expect that they would come up with it as an answer to a problem in most cases, but if one student uses it and doesn't get hurt I guess it's worth it. Most of the time we do our best to not let them get in a situation where they would need to use that skill in the first place.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote


Maybe you could say that once they have their "B" license, they can read posts here.



Yeah, let's lock down the forums and prevent people who are capable of:

1> Reading the sticky at the top of the forums.
2> Reading the jump numbers next to the name of the person who's giving advice.
3> Taking anything they read on here and asking their instructors about it, prior to making life and death choices on it.

Because 1 guy heard that "low turns are bad", made a decision based on that information, and had a perfect landing anyway.

Students aren't pounding themselves in because of these forums, or at least I'm not seeing the incident reports that are showing it, and I know when I was a student I got better information here for some things than I did at the DZ.

In the very least it was a sounding board for me to compare and contrast information I was getting at home.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well yes, Remster, I do. I teach flat, half, braked and flare turns and what they do and what they are good for and I also have them practice them in their playground area starting on Jump #1 to get a feel for how the canopy reacts as opposed to full toggle turns. I also teach no turns more than 90 degrees under 1000 ft.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I did my FJC not all that long ago and there is a limit to how much people can absorb, especially people like me who had never been exposed to any kind of aviation/wind reliant etc sport. So, I actually can't tell you if we were taught the different types of turns but I definitely remember being taught no more than 90 deg on final (no more than 180 below 1000')

I really just wanted to post a simple reminder, that low turns can and have killed people even under student canopies, and that even more experienced jumpers have been hurt not trying to avoid obstacles but trying to turn into the wind. Our priorities of landing were drilled into us (land with a flat wing in a clear area; flare for landing; preferably land into wind). Emphasis on this should help people figure out if a low turn is worth the risk or not? Just my 2c, A licence, low# jumper etc opinion.
Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Somehow, and I hope I'm wrong, I get the idea that you are only teaching them what to do if everything goes perfectly right.



You cant teach everything in a FJC. Period. How many FJC teach flat turns? Should they? Again, with so many student not even comprehending "landing into the wind" and how to do that in real life, you are telling me you teach how to deal with a low altitude accident avoidance? Come on...



We teach flat turns in our Fourth Jump Course

Dave
http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hi! I am considered even lower than a sub-low timer as far as jump numbers go, however, I would like to add just a thought here, please. As a beginning student, I am still struggling with landings, wind pattern changes, etc. Now to the humble point I am trying to make here: From reading these forums I continue to learn more from posters who are at a variety of skill levels. I do not take to heart every post that is written, albeit, I am quite capable at recognizing and discerning other points of view and differentiate between the ones that can either help or hurt me. For example, a couple of weeks ago I was reading a poster's experience with regard to a bad landing, their experience was almost exactly as mine had been. After reading several postings from others who were giving advice, bingo! There it was! Someone was able to pointedly provide advice that made sense to me. It was my epiphany-moment where the information just clicked. I guess what I am trying to explain is that there are occasions when someone else's personality, experience, or even their thought process will match with another's and it just clicks for them. In addition, the DZ's are so busy on the weekends, it can be rather difficult to find the one-one time with the instructors. Whenever I find some tidbit of information that I think is helpful for me, personally, I always mention it to my instructor for their input, but our discussion might not be as timely as reading DZ.com.

Edited for clarification - it's late - good night all!


Stay safe!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Hi! I am considered even lower than a sub-low timer as far as jump numbers go, however, I would like to add just a thought here, please. As a beginning student, I am still struggling with landings, wind pattern changes, etc. Now to the humble point I am trying to make here: From reading these forums I continue to learn more from posters who are at a variety of skill levels. I do not take to heart every post that is written, albeit, I am quite capable at recognizing and discerning other points of view and differentiate between the ones that can either help or hurt me. For example, a couple of weeks ago I was reading a poster's experience with regard to a bad landing, their experience was almost exactly as mine had been. After reading several postings from others who were giving advice, bingo! There it was! Someone was able to pointedly provide advice that made sense to me. It was my epiphany-moment where the information just clicked. I guess what I am trying to explain is that there are occasions when someone else's personality, experience, or even their thought process will match with another's and it just clicks for them. In addition, the DZ's are so busy on the weekends, it can be rather difficult to find the one-one time with the instructors. Whenever I find some tidbit of information that I think is helpful for me, personally, I always mention it to my instructor for their input, but our discussion might not be as timely as reading DZ.com.

Edited for clarification - it's late - good night all!


Stay safe!




Just cause it clicks doesn't mean it is right. It might even make a lot of sense to you and STILL be wrong. That is why this discussion keeps coming up on here. Well intentioned advice that sounds good but is wrong is very hard to distinguish from actual good advice. Especially when you are first starting out. That is why its best to work with the instructors at your own dz. When a person isn't getting it, ask to work with a different instructor so you can get a different point of view.
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Just cause it clicks doesn't mean it is right. It might even make a lot of sense to you and STILL be wrong. That is why this discussion keeps coming up on here. Well intentioned advice that sounds good but is wrong is very hard to distinguish from actual good advice. Especially when you are first starting out. That is why its best to work with the instructors at your own dz. When a person isn't getting it, ask to work with a different instructor so you can get a different point of view.



It might be good to also mention that this can happen at your dropzone as well. An eager low-experience jumper may want to share their newly found technique with you...to your detriment. When it has happened to me, I just thanked them for the information and stuck with what my instructor had taught me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
>Maybe you could say that once they have their "B" license, they can
>read posts here. Then, once they have their Coach or Instructor rating they
>can submit posts, create topics, and reply to posts here.

There may indeed be a demand for a forum like that, where a small number of 'experts' are authorized to answer questions from a larger (but still limited) number of "authorized advanced students." Feel free to post that suggestion.

However, this forum is an open one, and is intended for anyone who wants to ask (or answer) questions, from a three-jump student to a 3000 jump guy who had a problem on breakoff. 90% of the time the answers are pretty good. 10% of the time they're marginal, or are applicable to certain programs/DZ's/countries and not others.

The other 10% of the advice is downright dangerous. You don't see that advice because I usually delete it.

There is certainly merit to the "ask your instructors" thing. But instructors are no more perfect than anyone else (I'm certainly not) and thus the information on this forum may 'fill in the gaps' for someone with a question about something. It may even save someone's life. Just as there are people out there who post bad advice, there are instructors who give bad or incomplete instruction.

Usually that's not the case, and this forum serves as background information only (which is mentioned in the "read this first" post.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

Quote

Quote

Quote

But people that have no business giving guidance to skydiving students gosta feel important and talk about physics and bullshit like that. ...



Agreed. Physics is BS and completely irrelevant to skydiving.


At least to your average skydiving student eh?



I know several physics PhDs who became skydivers. And a whole lot of engineers. Presumably they had no problems with the physics of skydiving during their student progression!
...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

0