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MARS M2 AAD

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gowlerk

Cypres is the only one currently having problems with faulty electronics.



Not true. Vigil uses exactly the same sensor which is now known to be faulty. They just don't tell and because of their no-maintenance philosophy it will be never fixed. All AAD manufacturers say that you shall check if the device is working before you jump, which is more a legal thing.

Get a Cypres and a Vigil, open both, see and understand what you see.

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gowlerk

Now there's a logical well thought out argument. And probably the best one you can come up with. Cypres belief is like a religion! No use trying to reason with a believer.



I replied that way because your complaints were already addressed in this thread.

I showed why it is such a good idea to get an AAD checked so thoroughly for accuracy, precision, confirming it fires and doesn't fire when it should and shouldn't when tested very near the activation limits, and having it subjected to environmental extremes. It was discussed how the self test is definitely not "considered adequate", the MARS self test cannot overcome that limitation. I suggested more than once that people with an SB affected cypres could just expose their unit to a lot of static to try and get it to lock up. If it locks up, then they'll fix it, if it doesn't lock up, then you are shown how resistant it really is. Did you do that, so that your wife's unit didn't have to be a paperweight?

That is why I replied to your post in the way I did. We've already done this before in another thread.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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Skybear


Vigil uses exactly the same sensor which is now known to be faulty. They just don't tell and because of their no-maintenance philosophy it will be never fixed.



Do you mind citing your source for this statement? Please expound on this.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.
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Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

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Vigils are now getting to be nearly 10 years old. No problems so far, touch wood. I know you suggested at least 5 times that I try to deliberately damage the CYPRES, but that's not how I roll.

There are thousands of Vigils out there for many years now. Your fears may turn out to be unfounded. But suit yourself, buy a CYPRES.

The self test has been discussed and some of the "experts" here do seem to think that only Airtec's system is good enough. So far Airtec is the only company with failing electronics. So I guess it's a good thing they have 4 year checks! There are some knowledgeable people who post here, but none of them have access to the manufacturer's test data. So guess what? I'll go with the opinion of the real experts and the track record of the companies involved. Based on that I would say Vigil is the clear winner. Airtec does not even trust their own product. And they have an SB out telling their customers not to either.

Why would I go by your judgement?
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Vigils are now getting to be nearly 10 years old. No problems so far



No problems! You haven't been paying attention.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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gowlerk

Here we go. As far as I can see, Cypres is 90's technology and can't be trusted without a 4 year check up. Vigils are a later design. The batteries last much longer and the device is reliable enough that the self test is considered adequate. The M2 is newer yet, and is even less power hungry. It does no have any leds flashing at turn on, possibly allowing the battery to last longer.

AADs are basically small electronic computers connected to a cutter. I'd rather have a 2011 designed circuits than 1992 circuitry. Cypres is the only one currently having problems with faulty electronics. But skydivers are a conservative bunch and many believe that the older nearly obsolete design that can't be trusted more than 4 years is somehow better. Maybe because the total cost of ownership is nearly twice as much. Must be twice as good right? Airtec spends a lot of money on advertising, some of it has been downright nasty toward the competition. They can afford this because of the high price they have been able to charge for many years on a product they haven't updated much in years. And when they do update components they have been known to fail to do enough testing. They currently have thousands of known defective units in the field and are asking their customers to be patient while they take 4 years to fix them. At the customer's expense no less. Why would anyone choose a CYPRES?




90's technology? LMAO ..... what a load of crap. You have no clue what you are talking about if you really believe that. In addition, I know that ALL electronics have a life span of x and that ALL electronics will eventually fail. If I am banking on something to save my ass should I be knocked out I personally want to know that it has been checked recently. I personally don't want to be falling knocked out in say year 7 of my AAD's service and the thing has never been serviced or checked. Please tell me what electrical appliance you have that has lasted 10 + yrs with no issues. If you can come up with one I will guarantee that someone out there has the same model you do with problems that you did not have.
Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

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gowlerk

I actually trust all three of the current AADs. I don't really have any reason to think any is better than the others. That being said, I see no reason to pay more for one than the other. Even the Argus would be fine as far as I know except for the cutter issue. But how long the battery lasts is most likely a function of more modern less power hungry components. I do know that only one has an SB out with thousands of units affected, caused by insufficient testing. That alone would make it my last choice. The price is just the icing on the cake.

I predict that within the next 2 years Airtec will come up with an updated product that doesn't need a 4 year check and has ten year batteries. If they don't they will slowly go out of business. I'm guessing their sales this year will drop at least 30% from last year. In my local market they are being outsold about 10 to 1 lately.



You really do not know what you are talking about. I am really not trying to attack or bust your balls at all. I am just telling you that you do not have a clue about the technology, the business, etc. I realize you are voicing opinions here which is fine but many things you have said could not be farther from the truth.
Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

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You really do not know what you are talking about. I am really not trying to attack or bust your balls at all. I am just telling you that you do not have a clue about the technology, the business, etc. I realize you are voicing opinions here which is fine but many things you have said could not be farther from the truth.



That is why I'm going by what the manufacturers say. I'm trying to be objective here, but all you seem to have is an emotional response about what you'd want when you are on your back unconscious. That is just fear mongering. Airtec also engages in fear mongering in it's advertising, so you fit right into the marketing plan.

My opinions are indeed mine. I'm basing them on what the makers who do the testing say, and on the track record in the market. What are you basing yours on? Your favorite flavor of koolaid?
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Rstanley0312

In addition, I know that ALL electronics have a life span of x and that ALL electronics will eventually fail. If I am banking on something to save my ass should I be knocked out I personally want to know that it has been checked recently. I personally don't want to be falling knocked out in say year 7 of my AAD's service and the thing has never been serviced or checked.



I'm not looking for a pissing match here - instead I enjoy and encourage healthy, intelligent debate. It's this kind of debate that has improved everything we enjoy in our sport and in fact our lives in general.

You obviously have a concern for whether or not your aad has been recently checked and I respect that. What exactly do you consider to be recent enough? Is it the 4 years that Cypres requires? If so, why 4 years why not every 2 or 3 or even every year? You obviously know and I agree, that electronics can fail. Was it a conscious decision to choose the number 7 in your post? Why not replace it with the number 3?

Do you send your aad in more often than is required? I had a friend in the mid 90s who's Cypres would not turn on after only 2 years. He sent it in and they told him the batteries were bad. They replaced them and all was good. Does that mean that we should actually be sending in our devices every 2 years?

I'm also curious if you are aware of Vigil's stand that anyone can send in their device whenever they want. They will do the normal checks and replace the batteries if requested and charge no more than the normal service. I assume every company allows this. Why then do so many people choose to ignore this fact?

Do they ignore this by choice or are they just uniformed? Are you aware you can do this? If so, do you have other reasons for which AAD you've chosen?

Personally [besides my years in the sport and the people I've visited in hospitals and worse - buried] I have done enormous amounts of research on all my gear choices. My concern is that many people make their decisions based on stories they've heard on the internet or around the bonfire. I actually think you can learn from these sources but only if you question what you've heard and use your own critical thinking skills to help decipher the BS. Ask people if they've given any original thought to their statements or are they simply restating something they've heard.

Basically I think it's OK and even fun to drink the Kool-aid because it tastes good - but before you choose to make it a primary source in your diet - do your own research and find out if there is any real nutritional value. Just my humble opinion.

Sandy Grillet

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.
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Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

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F*ck it. I'm just gonna buy an M2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is currently the ONLY unit that hasn't had any known failures or fatalities, right? Granted, it hasn't really been tested enough (knock on wood). I've read many claims of Cypres units turning themselves off and, in a few cases, causing death. In Argus' argument, they said Cypres just calls them suicides, but that's the competitor, so idk where they got that info from. I can't remember the article, but I think one girl's family is actually sueing Airtec because she died due to a Cypres unit failing, or so they say, & Vigil admits to a missing cutter causing a fatality. I'm not sure how valid some of these claims are, so don't take my word for it. Regardless, M2 is new, cheap, and they've been making AAD's for a while. PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong about any of this. Especially if you have any info on a malfunctioned M2.

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Your claim about the testing problem is the only one I can find on the web, and the only negative allegation based on data instead of opinion seemingly available.Would you please cite your source? I'd really appreciate it. Not for the sake of argument, but to satisfy my curiosity and help me make an informed decision on my life saving device.

Thanks a billion!

-Chris

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gowlerk

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You really do not know what you are talking about. I am really not trying to attack or bust your balls at all. I am just telling you that you do not have a clue about the technology, the business, etc. I realize you are voicing opinions here which is fine but many things you have said could not be farther from the truth.



That is why I'm going by what the manufacturers say. I'm trying to be objective here, but all you seem to have is an emotional response about what you'd want when you are on your back unconscious. That is just fear mongering. Airtec also engages in fear mongering in it's advertising, so you fit right into the marketing plan.

My opinions are indeed mine. I'm basing them on what the makers who do the testing say, and on the track record in the market. What are you basing yours on? Your favorite flavor of koolaid?



There is actually zero emotion in my response. I am just pointing out what you are writing is way off base and backed by nothing but opinion. That is evident by your lack of knowledge on the subject by beginning with a statement like "90's technology". Jump what you want just don't try and spread your off base opinions as fact.
Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

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Have you read the Airtec SB? It states that their problem started when a component could no longer be obtained because it was no longer being produced. In other words, it became obsolete. I'm not sure when it was designed, but far enough back that it was left behind. And then they failed to do enough testing on the redesign.

I did not make this up. It's right on their website. Along with a bunch of spin about "only a button push" while they make excuses why they can't repair the defect, except at the customer's expense and Airtec's convenience.

Airtec has done a lot for skydiving. All the competition they have is largely based on form and function copied from the original Cypres. I'm grateful for what they have done. But not so grateful that I'm willing to pay them hundreds of dollars per device extra while they rest on their laurels and get overtaken by more modern designs. Their time has come and gone, unless they move forward.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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All of these units are good. None of them have caused any fatalities. You are safe with any of them, but nothing is 100% guaranteed. If you need that give up skydiving. These are absolute worst case backup devices. Don't spend too much time worrying about your AAD. Worry about getting a canopy over your head in time. Although there have been problems with AADs the rate is very small and not statistically significant. Anyone who is so safety oriented that they need to split hairs on the effectiveness of AAD brands has no business skydiving.

Arguing about which one is best is like arguing about which church will get you into heaven. I'm only talking about value for money here.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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gowlerk


Have you read the Airtec SB? It states that their problem started when a component could no longer be obtained because it was no longer being produced. In other words, it became obsolete. I'm not sure when it was designed, but far enough back that it was left behind. And then they failed to do enough testing on the redesign.

I did not make this up. It's right on their website. Along with a bunch of spin about "only a button push" while they make excuses why they can't repair the defect, except at the customer's expense and Airtec's convenience.

Airtec has done a lot for skydiving. All the competition they have is largely based on form and function copied from the original Cypres. I'm grateful for what they have done. But not so grateful that I'm willing to pay them hundreds of dollars per device extra while they rest on their laurels and get overtaken by more modern designs. Their time has come and gone, unless they move forward.



It sounds like you are the one full of emotion on the topic. Like I said jump what you want.
Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

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It sounds like you are the one full of emotion on the topic. Like I said jump what you want.



You might think so. But the truth is that I don't own one. My 1990 Talon one is not even AAD ready. I buy them and sell them and install them and advise customers about them. But unless I'm doing a tandem I don't wear one.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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Some of the "more modern design" AADs are certainly more stupid - as in not being able to filter out conditions that are impossible for a jumper to achieve during a jump, such as when a door is suddenly opened.

"More modern" doesn't mean better. Airtek's competitors have had the ability to make their design do at least as well in this regard (filtering out of impossible to achieve - misleading data), but some failed at this very basic task. Despite having a clear target set by their competition, they didn't even do as well. Go ahead and think that is better, but I have a different definition of better.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

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Skydivesg

*** In addition, I know that ALL electronics have a life span of x and that ALL electronics will eventually fail. If I am banking on something to save my ass should I be knocked out I personally want to know that it has been checked recently. I personally don't want to be falling knocked out in say year 7 of my AAD's service and the thing has never been serviced or checked.



I'm not looking for a pissing match here - instead I enjoy and encourage healthy, intelligent debate. It's this kind of debate that has improved everything we enjoy in our sport and in fact our lives in general.

You obviously have a concern for whether or not your aad has been recently checked and I respect that. What exactly do you consider to be recent enough? Is it the 4 years that Cypres requires? If so, why 4 years why not every 2 or 3 or even every year? You obviously know and I agree, that electronics can fail. Was it a conscious decision to choose the number 7 in your post? Why not replace it with the number 3?

Do you send your aad in more often than is required? I had a friend in the mid 90s who's Cypres would not turn on after only 2 years. He sent it in and they told him the batteries were bad. They replaced them and all was good. Does that mean that we should actually be sending in our devices every 2 years?

I'm also curious if you are aware of Vigil's stand that anyone can send in their device whenever they want. They will do the normal checks and replace the batteries if requested and charge no more than the normal service. I assume every company allows this. Why then do so many people choose to ignore this fact?

Do they ignore this by choice or are they just uniformed? Are you aware you can do this? If so, do you have other reasons for which AAD you've chosen?

Personally [besides my years in the sport and the people I've visited in hospitals and worse - buried] I have done enormous amounts of research on all my gear choices. My concern is that many people make their decisions based on stories they've heard on the internet or around the bonfire. I actually think you can learn from these sources but only if you question what you've heard and use your own critical thinking skills to help decipher the BS. Ask people if they've given any original thought to their statements or are they simply restating something they've heard.

Basically I think it's OK and even fun to drink the Kool-aid because it tastes good - but before you choose to make it a primary source in your diet - do your own research and find out if there is any real nutritional value. Just my humble opinion.

Sandy Grillet

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.
.

I did miss your post... sorry. Are you related to Nick? Anyway, I randomly picked 7 so it had no real data behind it I was just making a point about electronics period. The problem is that people do not understand that it should be checked and serviced. Yes, I know Vigil says they will do this BUT people buy a vigil because their marketing suggests it is not needed. That is insane when speaking about electronics..... especially when talking about a device that is your last chance if really bad things happen.

CYPRES requires the check imho for many reason.... 1st it is needed on a regular basis, 2nd KISS... if you mandate it people will get it checked unlilke Vigil who says they will do it but their marketing "suggests" it is not needed and I seriously doubt even 10% of Vigil owners take advantage of that. Third, quality control! A company that makes an electronic device that is meant to be a last chance and to save your ass should do quality control. All of these things I agree with.

The situation you brought up about the CYPRES and it's battery. It may need something prior to the check date or later here and there... it is the nature of dealing with an electronic device. So really the question is... why would any company not mandate it unless it is being used as a marketing effort. Any competitior to CYPRES has to have differences to make their product viable right? First thing any competitor goes after is price.... and then they find other things that they think is not likes about the market leader and they market to that. That is what I think/know Vigil did.

I think CYPRES does much more in terms of data collection than it's competitors. It is more advanced and a better AAD. I could go in to why but I to do not want to get in to a pissing match (not refering to you). The truth is it's actually not like a typical argument over a canopy bc it's what one jumper has currently in their rig. CYPRES is a better product. That being said.... I am not saying a VIgil or any other AAD on the market cannot save your ass when needed.

However, the most important thing an AAD does is decide when NOT to fire. People do not often think about their AAD but the truth is it works more than any other piece of a rig. It is always working. I do not knock people for jumping any other AAD but I have a serious issue with people throwing out random statements that are founded in nothing. What you posed were legit questions. I hope I have covered them.

Rob
Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

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Rstanley0312



I think CYPRES does much more in terms of data collection than it's competitors. It is more advanced and a better AAD. I could go in to why but I to do not want to get in to a pissing match (not refering to you).

Rob



In my past life I did hardware and software design work with micro controllers and one project was an auto pilot for light aircraft.

I see many similarities with some of the design considerations, in particular barometric sensors and accelerometers with AAD's. Many people in this forum are making that argument that the newer designs mean updated electronics which means that the device is better. While this would seem to make sense, I don't think it is the main factor.

From my experience, writing and testing the software algorithms is the complex part, not the electronics. It took us many iterations of code to get a working design and I believe that the longer a product has been around the more optimized there software is.

Assuming of course that the product company invests in continual improvement. :)
Rstanley0312


However, the most important thing an AAD does is decide when NOT to fire.

People do not often think about their AAD but the truth is it works more than any other piece of a rig. It is always working.

Rob



Amen brother... all I ask of my AAD is not to give me a "two out", anything else is a bonus.

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Like I mentioned in my earlier post, if I haven't gotten my shit together by 800ft, I probably shouldn't be skydiving, but if I HAVE to spend upwards of 1000 dollars on a piece of equipment to skydive (which will take some time to save), I would like to do a little research to find out some information on them. I'm not just gonna blow a thousand dollars on the coolest looking one... I'm splitting hairs because my $$ is valuable and so is my life.

Sky_doggy

***

I think CYPRES does much more in terms of data collection than it's competitors. It is more advanced and a better AAD. I could go in to why but I to do not want to get in to a pissing match (not refering to you).

Rob



In my past life I did hardware and software design work with micro controllers and one project was an auto pilot for light aircraft.

I see many similarities with some of the design considerations, in particular barometric sensors and accelerometers with AAD's. Many people in this forum are making that argument that the newer designs mean updated electronics which means that the device is better. While this would seem to make sense, I don't think it is the main factor.

From my experience, writing and testing the software algorithms is the complex part, not the electronics. It took us many iterations of code to get a working design and I believe that the longer a product has been around the more optimized there software is.

Assuming of course that the product company invests in continual improvement. :)
Rstanley0312


However, the most important thing an AAD does is decide when NOT to fire.

People do not often think about their AAD but the truth is it works more than any other piece of a rig. It is always working.

Rob



Amen brother... all I ask of my AAD is not to give me a "two out", anything else is a bonus.

Apollo87

... accidents happen, but I'm more frightened of a misfire or a 2-out situation than an unconscious or altitude unaware one.



Fo sho! I think @ 13 jumps, I'd probably be pretty freaked z F%^K out if I had a downplane.

Is there any evidence against Cypres' R&D not constantly working to improve algorithms and components?

Most importantly, to me at least, would be a list of specs and testing results comparing the different companies. Does anyone know of something like this, or at least a list of what components they use? Or any of these on any of them? I've searched, but can't find anything on the primary components of ANY of the devices [:/] (except for Argus' written argument that Cypres' barometer is insufficient for a life saving device, but idk where they got that info or if it carries any credibility whatsoever)

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-ftp-

***All of these units are good. None of them have caused any fatalities.



Please stop talking....just stop.

Nope, I won't. AADs do not cause fatalities. Although a mis-fire potentially could. The skydiving world has been well served by the AADs available. Any of the current ones are good despite scaremongers who pounce on every problem they have had. No device will ever be 100% guaranteed.

I just checked your profile...blank. I'm assuming you are a regular here with a second ID for anonymous comment. As such I will take your opinion for what you consider it to be worth.... NOTHING.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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gowlerk

******All of these units are good. None of them have caused any fatalities.



Please stop talking....just stop.

The skydiving world has been well served by the AADs available. Any of the current ones are good despite scaremongers who pounce on every problem they have had. No device will ever be 100% guaranteed.

I just checked your profile...blank. I'm assuming you are a regular here with a second ID for anonymous comment. As such I will take your opinion for what you consider it to be worth.... NOTHING.

No device will ever be 100% guaranteed? Your words, so stop your whining and moaning about Cypres...

gowlerk

I sent it in because my wife was not willing to jump with it in her rig after reading the SB. She started calling it her $1600 door stop. You may remember that from earlier in the thread.



gowlerk

While you're schmoozing with the Airtec people maybe you could find a way to politely bring up the fact that they are currently doing a huge amount of damage to their brand.

As far as I can tell they feel that they can deal with 4 years of defective product by continuing business as usual. If they are making any effort at all to increase their service capacity to fix the problem they are failing to communicate it to their customers.

If you feel that taking 4 years to fix the product and charging customers to do it is not reasonable, please take the time to let them know.

They are running the risk of turning from the company that gives the customer the peace of mind of the 4 year check to the becoming the company that merely uses it as a lame excuse to not honour their product warranty. While their customer wonders on every jump if they remembered to double check if the device is still working.

Ken Gowler



Troll much? Why dontcha go-lurk somewhere else ;)

Stop replying to this guy. He's one of those. Oversensitive, overdramatic, argumentative, and always has something to say about something, worthless as it may be. This guy has argued with the most respected, knowledgeable people on dz.com. Just look at his past threads... I wish there were a way to flag people.

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