George Bush Resume

[Jib 0]

Actually, I think the rich pay the most and get the least back. They get no better services for their federal taxes than anyone else (local taxes aside) and they create jobs for others; so, they too can pay taxes.
A long time ago a writer analogized the newly enacted tax system to feudal serfdom (where you pay 1/3 of whatever you grow/earn to the lord in exchange for protection). Is there really a distinction?

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[ERICCONNELLY 0]

agreed that they get no better services - for the most part, there are some advantages to being very wealthy.

I'm really talking about the people banging down $1,000,000 or more annually. These people recieve benifit from living in this contry, not from the government but because of the culture this system of government makes possible.

I mean you could be a millionarre in Brazil, Columbia, or Costa Rica - and be a prisoner of your own security. Or be a shiek in Saudi and not be able to go to a strip club and drink beer with the guys without fear of being stoned to death if you get caught. I'm talking about the greatness that is the USA, yah we all get to enjoy it, but our system makes it possible to achieve the AMERICAN DREAM of wealth. That's why, once you get there, I think you owe something to all the schmucks that made it possible. The military grunts that keep you free, the cops that keep you safe, the workers that pave your roads and the teachers that educate the masses so they can be productive enough to keep this whole thing working.

Not that they should have to pay for everything, I just think a progressive tax system seems to be a good idea.

Giving a guy with a $10,000,000 annual income a $100,000 tax break is not likely to cause him to consume more. People with that much already consume whatever they want - I've met a couple of people that are truely wealthy and they don't shop at Walmart, they don't use cupons and they don't wait for sales or their tax return to buy something, If they want it, they buy it.

[billvon 2,384]

>A long time ago a writer analogized the newly enacted tax system to
> feudal serfdom (where you pay 1/3 of whatever you grow/earn to
> the lord in exchange for protection). Is there really a distinction?

Serfs can't leave, and they don't get to replace the lord if they so desire.

There have been taxes on people for thousands of years at this point. No one has ever liked them. The US, I think, has an unusually fair system in that the poor pay less as a percentage than the rich. This generally works out because the rich can afford to pay a greater percentage of their taxes without causing starvation, loss of housing etc.

[ERICCONNELLY 0]

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Serfs can't leave, and they don't get to replace the lord if they so desire

Sure they can. It just takes a lot more blood. Things just have to get really bad until you get revolution, still happens. Hey, it's giong on right now
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/africa/story.jsp?story=412531

Doesn't always work tho...

[turtlespeed 212]

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Making fun of smart people is the American way. Didn't they do that in your high school?

Unfortunately it is true...and I am also sorry to say that the rest of the world has landed on our band waggon.
I just hope that the rest of the world doesn't hurt them selves as bad as the french when they try to jump on at the last minute.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[sinker 0]

I am very much enjoying our correspondence about abortion. Since the thread has long since left this topic, I propose we move our argument to email or pm's... is this ok with you? To the rest of the thread participants, sorry if we've been a bother...

I am still on the road currently but will return to my home Thursday night and will able to devote more attention to the current argument. Talk to you soon I hope...

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[billvon 2,384]

>I just hope that the rest of the world doesn't hurt them selves as bad
> as the french when they try to jump on at the last minute.

How did the French "hurt themselves?" (other than get the US annoyed at them)

[wmw999 2,117]

If you put it into a thread, I'll participate when my brain turns back on, and I'll read it regardless. You'll notice I've been staying towards the vapid end of things today.

Now the question is: is that a threat or a promise
Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[sinker 0]

Hello Wendy! I am with you there, my brain is mush from work and travel. Sure, we can start a thread about it. I just hope that it doesn't become a free-for-all beating on the pro-lifer just kidding

Seriously though, it would be nice to preface the thread with a sort of disclaimer that the thread should remain peaceful and w/o attacks... I know most people willingly follow that rule, but this is such an emotional topic for people. If people can't do that, they should be grown up enough not to participate. But from what I know of you and Justin and some others, that y'all will not have a problem with that.

One last thought... I'd like us to agree to all be able to group cyber hug afterwards... well, maybe not. Maybe just a cigarette or a drink...

peace... md

-the artist formerly known as sinker

[lawrocket 3]

Hmmm. I love how people use some truths to sound bad, and how some shit is made up to prove a point. See my comments in parentheses.

I ran for congress and I lost. (Hmmm. Like Bill Clinton?)

I bought an oil company, but I couldn't find any oil in Texas. The company went bankrupt shortly after I sold all my stock for millions. (He shoulda gone into cattle futures)

I bought the Texas Rangers baseball team in a sweetheart deal that took land using tax payer money. Biggest move: Traded Sammy Sosa to the Chicago White Sox. (Took land using taxpayer money? I'd suggest you whine to Utah about that. And I guess he uncorked Sosa)

As governor of Texas:

I changed pollution laws for power and oil companies and made Texas the most polluted state in the Union. Replaced Los Angeles with Houston as the
most smog ridden city in America. (What abotu New Jersey? And I don't see Vermont driving the energy for the nation)

I cut taxes and bankrupted the Texas government to the tune of billions in borrowed money. (He should have been a democrat and sunk billions into bonds so that future generations worry about waste. And a check of the civil index does not reveal any bankruptcies file dby Texas. What chapter was it?)

I set the record for the most executions by any governor in American history. (Tell that the the Native Americans in the Ohio Valley. Oh wait, we killed them all).

Became president after losing the popular vote by over 500,000 votes, with the help of my father's appointments to the Supreme Court. (Yeah, too bad the Supreme Court has problems with the court of a southern state legislating. Let's bring back Jim Crow!)

Accomplishments as president:

I spent the surplus and bankrupted the treasury. (Read the Constitution. Congress alone has the power to "tax and spend.")

I shattered the record for biggest annual deficit in history. (Read the Constitution. Congress alone has the power to "tax and spend.")


I set an economic record for most private bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period. (I thought private bankrupcies were done by private individuals. Yeah, I know, too bad he couldn't stop that avalanche from the dot.com industry implosion)

I'm the first president in US history to enter office with a criminal record. (Wrong. See "Andrew Jackson")

During my first year in office, I set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history. (He didn't want to be busy detroying the environment and businesses, I guess)

After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I presided over the worst security failure in US history. (The one that was planned for years beforehand while he was busy trading Sammy Sosa?)

I set the record for most campaign fund-raising trips than any other president in US history. (That's utter bullshit)

In my first two years in office over two million Americans lost their jobs. (In other words, the country is 260 years from full unemployment. Better act fast!!!)

I cut unemployment benefits for more out of work Americans than any president in US history. (Read the Constitution. Congress alone has the power to "tax and spend.")

I set the all-time record for most foreclosures in a 12 month period. (I had no idea he foreclosed on that many properties. And here I was upset at Al Gore being a slumlord.)

I appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history. (Name two)

I signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any president in US history. (Okay, this shit is outta hand. Read the Constitution. There are two ways to amend the Constitution. "Executive Orders" and "Laws" don't amend the Consititution. The Constitution does.)

I presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed. (What, you mean he let failing businesses fail? Maybe he shoulda pumped them with a few billion dollars as their reward for unsound practices. Oh yeah, that's what we did to Japanese banks. They're doing well against the Euro, too.)

I presided over the highest gasoline prices in US history and refused to use the national reserves as past presidents have. (What, those reserves in Alaska?)

I cut healthcare benefits for war veterans. (Read the Constitution. Congress alone has the power to "tax and spend.")


I set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for
protest against any person in the history of mankind.
(http://www.hyperreal.org/~dana/marches/) (ooh, an actualy site! A lot more people protested Hitler and Stalin. Oh, no they didn't. They were all killed)

I dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history. (Yes, we should continue to honor that treaty with the USSR. While we're at it, let's honor a treaty with Gaul, Czechoslovakia, the Nation of Palestine, and other nation-states that don't exist anymore)

Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history
(the 'poorest' multi-millionaire, Condoleeza Rice, has an Chevron oil tanker named after her). (Let's have the homeless in the cabinet! They have demonstrated their mastery of the economic and political systems. We wouldn't want people who have demonstrated excellence. That would not be sensitive)

I'm the first president in US history to have 30 states simultaneously go bankrupt. (Hmmm. I haven't seen any bankrupcty filings.)

I presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud of any market in any country in the history of the world. (Yeah. H directed it all! The fraud was his scheme! In fact, Gary Winnick was his guest in the Lincoln Bedroom. Oh, wait. That was teh previous president's.)

I set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any president in US history. (Read the Constitution. Congress alone has the power to "tax and spend.")

My biggest life-time campaign contributor presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of
Enron Corporation). (He shoulda been Gary Winnick)

I spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history. (Yeah, it makes sense that he commissioned those polls, then ignored them. He WANTED to be the most protested individual in history! Yes!!!)

I'm the first president in US history to unilaterally attack a sovereign nation against the will of the United Nations and the world community. (I know. The Bay of Pigs never happened.)

With a policy of 'dis-engagement,' I created the most hostile Israeli-Palestine relations in at least 30 years. (Headline today - "Mideast summit opens new chapter in peace process" Yeah, Dubya's progress in peace has been atrocious. They actually may get it)

I failed to fulfill my pledge to get Osama Bin Laden 'dead or alive.' I failed to capture the anthrax killer who tried to murder the leaders of our country at the United States Capitol building. After 18 months, I have no leads and zero suspects. (Touche)

In a little over two years, I created the most divided country in decades, possibly the most divided the US has ever been since the civil war. (Yeah. I'm so bad, people have to make up shit like this idiotic resume to prove it. IF there were real facts, we'd use them (sorry, I still love the "amended the Constitution" one)

Records and References:

I have at least one conviction for drunk driving in the state of Maine (my Texas driving record has been erased and is not available). (Our skydivign brother in arms)

I went AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during the Vietnam War. (Deserters are felons. Hmmm. I didn't see that Rap)

I have refused to take drug tests or answer questions about drug use. (A policy begun by the last president, with the exception of "I didn't inhale)

All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been removed to the George Bush Sr.'s library, sealed in secrecy and are un-available for
public view. (How do you know it's all of them if they are all secret and can't be viewed?)

All records of any SEC investigations into insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view. (How do you know it's all of them if they are all secret and can't be viewed? Actually, I'll go on a limb and say that nobody can get access to the records that prove conclusively that he is Longor from the Planet Xenishtemered. Prove me wrong!)


All minutes of meetings for any public corporation on which I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public view. (See above)

Any records or minutes from meetings the vice-president or myself attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and un-available for public review. (See above)

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[wmw999 2,117]

Quote

Seriously though, it would be nice to preface the thread with a sort of disclaimer that the thread should remain peaceful and w/o attacks

That would be great. I'm on another email list where we do an awfully good job of talking about religion vs. atheism, rabid vegetarianism, and Southerners with a minimum of bashing going on (those are hot topics on that list).

And I'll take a hug over a cigarette any day

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[TheAnvil 0]

'The rich' are not 'given' anything in a tax break. A tax break for them is allowing them to keep what they have rightfully earned through hard work. I know this makes LLC Dashle's eyes bulge and his hands quiver with anger, but most of the rich did not win the 'lottery of life' and inherit their dinero (read that a couple of places; Boortz, WSJ, and someplace else. I forget).

The rich and the poor both live under the capitalist system and benefit from it in some manner. Some make use of that system, some don't. Having travelled to many other countries or so, I disagree with your 'prisoners of their own wealth' analogy. I also disagree with your implied acceptance of poor people being dependent on the government. I grew up in Appalachia and don't think that to be the case there. Now I have lived in several cities and in those areas it POSSIBLY might hold, but really don't think so there either. Churches and charities do more good for the poor more efficiently/effectively than the government does.

I consider the 'progressive' income tax system an abomination. Nice in theory, but horrid in practice. Shifting an inordinate amount of the tax burden to a small percentage of the populace is unfair by any standard.

I personally am for a flat income tax of about 10-12% in conjunction with a national retail sales tax exempting gasoline and groceries AND eliminating EITCs and other tax loopholes. Along with that I'd eliminate the corporate tax on overseas profits and re-instate the double-taxation of dividends because I think that's the penalty shareholders pay for having no civil/criminal liability for corporate actions which their investments fund.

Work calls. I hate work sometimes. Other times I like it. Modal integrals and flexible body dynamics is my headache of the day....yummy.....

Beers to all,

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[FliegendeWolf 0]

Quote

but most of the rich did not win the 'lottery of life' and inherit their dinero

GWB?

A One that Isn't Cold is Scarcely a One at All

[n2skdvn 0]

this thread needs somthing...hmmm...oh yea!!

BOOBIES!!!!!

if my calculations are correct SLINKY + ESCULATOR = EVERLASTING FUN
my site

[Muenkel 0]

In regard to this taxation thing:

I am a basic middle class guy with a really handsome smile...but I digress. Anyway, I just looked at my pay stub and after federal, state, fica, health, dental, disability, life ins., approx 42% was taken out. And this is taking into account my pre-tax 401k contribution. I would say, we are over-taxed.

A tax break certainly would help stimulate my economy.

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[billvon 2,384]

>I consider the 'progressive' income tax system an abomination. Nice
> in theory, but horrid in practice. Shifting an inordinate amount of the
> tax burden to a small percentage of the populace is unfair by any
> standard.

I think it's pretty fair, and I'm one of those people who pays 45% of my salary in federal and state taxes. That seems fair since I can afford it. I might not be able to afford a bigger house, but if my lack of a bigger house means that two other families who make $24,000 a year can afford a house at all, I'm willing to live with that.

We will pay for our government. Tax cut or not, believe me, you and I will pay for every cent of every war we've fought, every bomber we buy, every mile of road we build. A tax cut while we increase spending simply means we pay a lot more in four years. There's no free lunch.

>I personally am for a flat income tax of about 10-12% in conjunction
>with a national retail sales tax exempting gasoline and groceries

I'd be for that if the 10-12% tax applied to people over a poverty line. 10% of $15,000 really isn't worth much to the government but means a lot more to those people. I'd agree on the national sales tax, with exemptions for groceries and basics (clothing etc) but definitely not gasoline. Why encourage people to buy something that leads to wars, pollution and crippling shortages (when it is used heavily?)

[billvon 2,384]

>A tax break certainly would help stimulate my economy.

Well, like I said, fear not - you will pay for every cent the government spends. Making people pay later rather than pay sooner is a favorite political trick, one that makes the "next guy" look bad. But in the end you just end up paying more.

The only way to cut taxes is to cut spending. We have to do that first, and our current plan of doing the opposite is really worrisome.

[Muenkel 0]

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one that makes the "next guy" look bad

You're assuming I care about the "next guy".

Chris

_________________________________________
Chris

[jfields 0]

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You're assuming I care about the "next guy".

And that applies to a lot of things!

[skycop 0]

Tax cuts encourage growth, growth stimulates the economy. This growth increases revenues in the long run. Simple supply-side economics. It's worked every time in the past. Why should this tax cut be any different. I do by the way, agree the initial tax cut was too robust, hopefully this one (amout) will create the above results.

"Just 'cause I'm simple, don't mean I'm stewpid!"

[ERICCONNELLY 0]

You know, I actually agree with a lot of this. Just want to mention there are a lot of people who DO WORK VERY HARD and are not rewarded by wealth.

Me, I don't work very hard, most of the time, but I can think - which I get paid well for doing. I grew up in NC, my mother is from Appalacha, and I do know that hard work can keep you alive. I also know there are a lot of people that truely bust their ass, every day for far less than I would currently consider working for. I don't feel bad paying 40% to give these people, or their children a safety net.

I think you would agree that a black coal miner's son from WV is a LOT less likely to become President of the USA than a wealthy oil man's son. No matter how hard he works OR how smart he is. (GWB was a "C" student after all)

ETR

[Steel 0]

Don't forget that your a skydiver. I am assuming you know how much fuel/oil is burning for the sole purpose of jumping out of planes. When you start bashing SUV, sports car owners or anybody using a lot of gasonile,(typical lefty tactics) it will eventually come back and affect what you love to do as well, SKYDIVING!!!

If I could make a wish, I think I'd pass.
Can't think of anything I need
No cigarettes, no sleep, no light, no sound.
Nothing to eat, no books to read.

[billvon 2,384]

> I am assuming you know how much fuel/oil is burning for the sole purpose of jumping out of planes.

For otters - about 1 gallon/person/load on a Twin Otter. On a given day, assuming a 40 mile drive to the DZ and 4 jumps, your typical skydiver with an SUV _still_ uses a lot more gas just driving his car to the DZ than he does actually jumping at the DZ. And that's just during the weekend.

>When you start bashing SUV, sports car owners . . .

I have no problems with SUV's, or even big cars. Heck, if you own an Explorer, and drive yourself and your kids to work/school every day over a dirt road, you're using the right tool for the job. I just have a problem with seeing one person in an Expedition driving 70 miles both ways to work every day in LA on highays at 80mph. That's more gas used _every_day_ than I use in a weekend of skydiving.

In any case, my original response was to someone who said that gasoline shouldn't be taxed if we had a national sales tax, as if it were an essential item. Skydiving, as much as I like it, is not essential. There's no reason we should get a tax break on what we basically do for fun while others shoulder our tax burden.

[TheAnvil 0]

I am FOR taxation, but in a fair and equitable manner. Lack of the ability to levy taxes was one of many reasons the original government set up under the Articles of Confederation failed - John Hanlon was the REAL first president over here, for you trivia buffs. As I stated previously, however, the current distribution of taxes is completely unacceptable to me. That's 96% of taxes on less than 50% of the populace - unacceptable.

I'd agree with you on a floor for the flat tax - US$25,000 seems a reasonable one for me, but still disagree with you on the gasoline. Gasoline is a necessity for many people to get to work. I also think that the increased price of gasoline is a factor many overlook when analyzing the economy. Gasoline is a necessary evil in the transport of goods/merchandise for any corporation. The greater the cost of gas, the greater the cost of transport, be it by plane, car, van, truck, or what have you. Whenever you increase the cost of gas you increase the cost of business, which in turn increases operating costs which in turn decreases profit margins.

I'm for getting us away from gasoline anyway and going to biodiesel-electric hybrid propulsion in automobiles. The technology is here, the biodiesel infrastructure is here and production could be increased EASILY to meet any increased demand mandated by appropriate legislation. Add some tax breaks and other incentives for small business-gas station owners AND chain owners and restaruants and other businesses to install electric car recharging units over a 10-15 year time period (have to have some standards there as well) and in 20 years we would have a significantly better environment and reduced dependence on petroleum. With the projected technology advances in batteries and solar cells (Integrated Junction solar cell technology is cool stuff, by the way) this is a feasible thing to do. Biodiesel powered SUVs would be cool. Good for farmers, good for foreign policy good for America, and good for mother nature.

Dammit. Work is boring me today, but there is so much to do. Whoever came up with these flexible body dynamics equations is a genius and I'm glad he did it, but dammit if I don't want to kick his or her ass right now.

Beers to all,

Vinny the Anvil

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[billvon 2,384]

>Gasoline is a necessity for many people to get to work.

I disagree. You can get a car that gets 50mpg and thus pay very little for gas. You can take the train. You can take the bus. You can live close to work.

Or you can CHOOSE to get a gas guzzler and drive long distances to work. And if that's your choice, you get to pay for it. You can live without an SUV; you can't live without food.

>I also think that the increased price of gasoline is a factor many
> overlook when analyzing the economy. Gasoline is a necessary evil
> in the transport of goods/merchandise for any corporation.

Well:

a) _Energy_ is a neccessary evil, whether it's in the form of diesel/biodiesel for trucks, gasoline for cars, electricity or diesel for trains, JP4 for aircraft etc. If the price of energy goes up people use less of it to compensate. In that way it's like any other commodity. And like any other commodity, if gasoline prices go up, more people will buy efficient cars or diesels or take the train.

b) I agree that lower gas prices might help the economy. So would lower housing prices (more home ownership means more work for contractors) lower prices on durable goods (Home Depot makes more money and employs more people) lower prices on hotel rooms (more tourism) etc etc. And if you add all those tax breaks in, you get a tax code sorta like what we have now, with every special interest group clamoring for their very own tax break "to help the economy."

I think a fairer way to do it is a flat sales tax with only things you need to live excepted. You simply don't need gasoline to live - belonging to the drive-up culture is not, as of yet, neccessary for human survival.

>The greater the cost of gas, the greater the cost of transport, be it
> by plane, car, van, truck, or what have you.

Hmm. Gas prices doubled here and I still spend a lot less on gas than I did two years ago. Gas prices went up and now I spend _less_ on gas, so your theorem doesn't always hold.