Plane Crashes and Stats

[me2 0]

Are fatal jump plane accidents considered a skydiving accident? I was curious to know what the relative risks were from parachute failure versus aircraft failure. In searching the the database, I only saw one plane crash listed as a cause, and that was due to a chute getting tangled on the tail.

[labrys 0]

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Are fatal jump plane accidents considered a skydiving accident?

Not unless the crash was caused by actual skydiving activity.

Owned by Remi #?

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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I only saw one plane crash listed as a cause, and that was due to a chute getting tangled on the tail.

What he said... If the chute gets tangled in the tail, it's a skydiving accident (skydiving was the cause). If the plane loses an engine on takeoff, it's a general aviation accident (skydiving had nothing to do with it). Otherwise we could call the recent cessna crash in manhattan a "baseball accident".

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[NickDG 23]

While "technically" correct I've never been fully comfortable with that line of thought. And I can fully see the reasoning on both sides. But, it seems we are too quick, for the sake of our own sanity, to say, "Not skydiving," and move on . . .

Let's look at what, I think, the OP is really asking; it's what are my chances of being killed in a plane crash because of my involvement with skydiving? We went through this after the So Cal Twin Otter crash that killed 14 jumpers. My thinking was always if those people hadn't woken up that morning and decided to go make a few jumps they'd still be alive.

To take this further it seems we "justify" when looking for a cause. It was an airplane part that failed, or a pilot making a mistake, or whatever else it was. But put yourself in the place of a loved one who thinks, "I always hated that skydiving and wish "Johnny" had never taken it up." They will always believe it was "skydiving" that ended Johnny's life. On the other hand if Johnny goes down on a 737 on a business trip to Baltimore it’s just bad luck.

Because you skydive you have to realize you are exposing yourself to more "flight risk" than the average person who flies only occasionally. When you ignore that you are just kidding yourself.

When I look at my own history I see I've been in three airplanes that "crashed" while I was wearing a rig. Throw in a few emergency exits and a few cautionary exits and that's a lot of incidents that stem wholly from my involvement with skydiving.

The question you must ask yourself is what is a root cause and what is the ancillary cause? To me, if you die in a jump aircraft the root cause was the fact you were involved with skydiving, the ancillary cause is whatever brought the plane down . . .

At the risk of overdoing my point, if tomorrow night I get arrested for climbing into a building to make a B.A.S.E. jump, I'm going to know I got busted for B.A.S.E. jumping, not simply climbing over someone's fence.

NickD BASE 194

[UDSkyJunkie 0]

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Because you skydive you have to realize you are exposing yourself to more "flight risk" than the average person who flies only occasionally. When you ignore that you are just kidding yourself.

I agree 100% with this... a skydiver exposes himself to the full extent of both "skydiving risk" and "general aviation" risk every time he gets in a plane. this is especially true considering that most fatal aircraft crashes happen on takeoff, and jumpers are seated in a less safe manner than other seated passengers (seatbelts are good and all, but how much is that loose seatbelt that's threaded through your cheststrap and the main lift web of the jumper in front of you really going to do?)

Also, plane crashes are one of the few ways that a jumper can die in this sport without making a single "mistake". Harness training, canopy piloting courses, good equipment, a conservative wingloading, and safe canopy piloting practices won't help.

That said, I still call it a general aviation accident, because the line has to go somwhere. And because I dislike the headline "10 skydivers killed in tragic plane crash" being used to sell newspapers... you'd never see the headline "10 tundra researchers killed in tragic arctic plane crash"

"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

[billvon 2,396]

> Are fatal jump plane accidents considered a skydiving accident?

They are skydiving _related_ and are thus often discussed here. Skydivers have unique issues with aircraft. For one thing, we sit on the floor without seats, and thus have less impact protection and can affect the CG more. For another thing, we can get out. So an aircraft incident with skydivers in it is inherently different than an aircraft incident with normal passengers.

[me2 0]

Yes, I can see the arguments for and against categorizing an accident as skydiving related vs aviation related. However, I am of the mindset that if you're in a plane with a parachute on preparing to jump, it should be considered skydiving-related. The recent Washington state crash just made me curious, because it seems I see similar headlines a few times a year.

While I didn't compile a list of jump plane accidents, my hunch is that 20-40% of skydivers fatalities are plane related, if you include my broader definition. Thanks for you thoughts.

[dbattman 0]

Fatality stats and incident report information are available through the USPA. I suggest you contact them if you are looking for information for a news article- the fatality database here is not complete or inclusive of jumplane incidents.

[Hazarrd 1]

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Because you skydive you have to realize you are exposing yourself to more "flight risk" than the average person who flies only occasionally. When you ignore that you are just kidding yourself.

I agree 100% with this... a skydiver exposes himself to the full extent of both "skydiving risk" and "general aviation" risk every time he gets in a plane. this is especially true considering that most fatal aircraft crashes happen on takeoff, and jumpers are seated in a less safe manner than other seated passengers (seatbelts are good and all, but how much is that loose seatbelt that's threaded through your cheststrap and the main lift web of the jumper in front of you really going to do?)

Also, plane crashes are one of the few ways that a jumper can die in this sport without making a single "mistake". Harness training, canopy piloting courses, good equipment, a conservative wingloading, and safe canopy piloting practices won't help.

That said, I still call it a general aviation accident, because the line has to go somwhere. And because I dislike the headline "10 skydivers killed in tragic plane crash" being used to sell newspapers... you'd never see the headline "10 tundra researchers killed in tragic arctic plane crash"

Agree with all of that, but would add that, at least in my opinion, skydiving planes are usually older and have a higher probability of not being maintained properly. Although I could be very wrong on both of those points; especially the second.

Any aviation enthusiasts care to weigh in on that?

.-.

[WGore 0]

Agree with all of that, but would add that, at least in my opinion, skydiving planes are usually older and have a higher probability of not being maintained properly. Although I could be very wrong on both of those points; especially the second.

Any aviation enthusiasts care to weigh in on that?

[bob.dino 0]

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Agree with all of that, but would add that, at least in my opinion, skydiving planes are usually older and have a higher probability of not being maintained properly. Although I could be very wrong on both of those points; especially the second.

Any aviation enthusiasts care to weigh in on that?

IIRC, diverdriver (Chris Schindler) maintains that jump aircraft crash at about twice the frequency of General Aviation aircraft. Not sure as to causes - hopefully he'll pop in here and enlighten us as to his thinking.

[diverdriver 5]

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Agree with all of that, but would add that, at least in my opinion, skydiving planes are usually older and have a higher probability of not being maintained properly. Although I could be very wrong on both of those points; especially the second.

Any aviation enthusiasts care to weigh in on that?

IIRC, diverdriver (Chris Schindler) maintains that jump aircraft crash at about twice the frequency of General Aviation aircraft. Not sure as to causes - hopefully he'll pop in here and enlighten us as to his thinking.

I've been working on a spread sheet and graphs periodicly for just such a comparrison. It's not done yet (to where I want to post it) but I hope to have it updated and posted by the end of this year. Statistics can be cut in many ways. I feel I have tried to compare things apples to apples. I do believe we have accidents at twice the General Aviation accident rate (12.0/100,000 hours flown vs 6/100,000 hours flown). This discussion has been done many times before and I don't have the time (at the moment) to search it out. Give me a little time and I'll see if I can find the post here on DZ.com.

Suffice it to say we repeat much the same accidents over and over.

The accident data base can be found here: http://www.diverdriver.com/Accidents/accidents.htm

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[kallend 1,623]

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Agree with all of that, but would add that, at least in my opinion, skydiving planes are usually older and have a higher probability of not being maintained properly. Although I could be very wrong on both of those points; especially the second.

Any aviation enthusiasts care to weigh in on that?

I don't think airframe or engine failures are the major cause (as opposed to, say, fuel mismanagement or other pilot errors).

I wonder, for example, how many jump plane pilots maintain instrument currency, which would be important in a ferry flight over unpopulated areas at night.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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[JohnMitchell 14]

Very good point. As jumpers, we ask so many questions of our riggers, our packers, our gear manufacturers. Do you ever think to question your pilots? Maybe all jumpers should involve themselves in that facet of skydiving safety. I've asked at least one jump pilot to cease flying in a manner I felt was unsafe. We're in this thing together.