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paul.Mcallister

Question about the various people who are qualified to work on Skydiving equipment

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Hi All,

I am looking to understand the differences between the various people who are qualified to work on containers, canopies ect.

If someone has undertaken the training and completed the FAA examination to pack reserves, is this what is known as a Rigger, or is a Rigger more than this. Also, what is the difference on skills / work that can be performed between a Rigger and a Master Rigger ?

Thanks, Paul

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If someone has undertaken the training and completed the FAA examination to pack reserves, is this what is known as a Rigger, or is a Rigger more than this.



There is FAR more involved in earning a riggers ticket than packing reserves. If they've earned their FAA rigger certificate, then they are a rigger (capable of minor repairs, determining airworthiness, etc)
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Also, what is the difference on skills / work that can be performed between a Rigger and a Master Rigger ?



We have 2 levels of riggers: Senior and Master. Senior is the lower level, Master is the higher.

Senior riggers are usually authorized to assemble, inspect, pack (reserves and mains), perform minor repairs of most equipment.

Master riggers may do all of that, including major repairs and alterations (within some limits).

It's very simple to check someone's credentials out and if you're curious as to if someone who is claiming to be a rigger really is, that's pretty easy to check.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
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FAA's ratings are Senior Parachute Rigger and Master Parachute Rigger; plus Designated Parachute Rigger Examiner (DPRE) which is a Master Parachute Rigger that can examine people for Senior or Master ratings.

Basically...

Seniors can inspect, make minor repairs, assemble, and repack certificated systems of the type they are rated for.

Masters can do the above plus make alterations and major repairs, things that can affect the airworthiness of components of the types they are rated for. Like harness work for instance. They hold ratings of at a minimum of two parachute system types.

Note I said type in both cases, there are four types of parachute system types recognized by the FAA: back, seat, chest and lap.

You should check out the "so you want to be a rigger" topic pinned at the top of this sub forum as it will give some more insight into this. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=585697;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread


Also, the MOST important of all of this is if you have to use your reserve, you pay the rigger who packed your reserve save a bottle of booze of their choosing. ;)

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Hi ski,

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Senior is the lower level, Master is the higher.



A question for you: Back a couple of lifetimes ago, there was an additional license called Parachute Rigger. However, it was restricted to members of the military only. When a licensed Parachute Rigger left the military, they were upgraded to Senior Parachute Rigger.

Do they still have that, Parachute Rigger, in the military?

JerryBaumchen

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Hi ski,

Quote

Senior is the lower level, Master is the higher.



A question for you: Back a couple of lifetimes ago, there was an additional license called Parachute Rigger. However, it was restricted to members of the military only. When a licensed Parachute Rigger left the military, they were upgraded to Senior Parachute Rigger.

Do they still have that, Parachute Rigger, in the military?

JerryBaumchen



There is an MOS for parachute riggers in the military. They are afforded an easy way of converting their qualification to an FAA rating. They need only take a written test covering the FAR's (25 questions) and they may be awarded the FAA Senior Rigger rating, no oral/practical needed... which TYPE, I don't know, but I presume chest would be given and possibly back/seat if they have the training and practice working on them as well.

ETA:
Quote

The Parachute Rigger Military Competence (RMC) test contains 25 questions, and you are allowed 1 hour to complete it.


"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

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Thanks everyone for their reply. I have one more question. What level of Rigger certification is required to be able to replace some lines or complete line set on a main canopy ?



Oh shit, you just re-opened the can of worms when we finally JUST got the damn lid back on it!

This one will get you a bunch of responses and get real confusing.

I'd tell you my stance on it, but at least one very experienced crusty old master rigger will disagree with me, no matter what it is!
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
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The question partly comes from curiosity. I have been looking at secondhand classifieds and people often make statements like 'my rigger said xyz' or 'it will need a new lineset next season'.

This got me curious as to what qualifies a rigger to inspect and what level of work they can do. For example if a new line set is needed does the canopy have to go back to the manufacturer or can a rigger at the local DZ do the work. Another question might be, if a canopy is out of trim, what level or rigger qualification required to set it up.

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The question partly comes from curiosity. I have been looking at secondhand classifieds and people often make statements like 'my rigger said xyz' or 'it will need a new lineset next season'.

This got me curious as to what qualifies a rigger to inspect and what level of work they can do. For example if a new line set is needed does the canopy have to go back to the manufacturer or can a rigger at the local DZ do the work. Another question might be, if a canopy is out of trim, what level or rigger qualification required to set it up.



Measuring trim isn't too difficult, you can even generally get an idea if it's out of trim and by how much during packing.

According to the FAA published parachute rigger handbook, a senior rigger is allowed to replace lines and adjust them to put them back into trim on a main canopy.

There are people that disagree with this, citing that it was a mistake and since it was a 3rd party contracted to write the manual, it doesn't go along with the FAR's.
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
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Any FAA Senior Rigger can inspect your lines and decide whether they need to be replaced.
However, the Federal Air Regulations say that replacing a suspension line is a major repair, so it can only be done by an FAA Master Rigger or the canopy manufacturer.

Rob Warner
FAA Master Parachute Rigger (back, seat and chest)
CSPA Rigger Examiner

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The question partly comes from curiosity. I have been looking at secondhand classifieds and people often make statements like 'my rigger said xyz' or 'it will need a new lineset next season'.

This got me curious as to what qualifies a rigger to inspect and what level of work they can do. For example if a new line set is needed does the canopy have to go back to the manufacturer or can a rigger at the local DZ do the work. Another question might be, if a canopy is out of trim, what level or rigger qualification required to set it up.



No matter how BA your local rigger claims to be or even how highly he/she is regarded amongst the locals, I always suggest sending the canopy back to the manufacturer for a reline.

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No matter how BA your local rigger claims to be or even how highly he/she is regarded amongst the locals, I always suggest sending the canopy back to the manufacturer for a reline.


I find this is extremely hard to argue against.
Have BA master riggers gotten it right? Yes.
Have BA master riggers gotten it wrong? Yes.

On top of that, buying a line set from the manufacturer doesn't guarantee that it's going to be the right one for your canopy.
I'll reference you to Aerodyne and the Triathlon with the 4.0 mod.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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A question for you: Back a couple of lifetimes ago, there was an additional license called Parachute Rigger. However, it was restricted to members of the military only. When a licensed Parachute Rigger left the military, they were upgraded to Senior Parachute Rigger.

Do they still have that, Parachute Rigger, in the military?



Jerry,
Before 1976 there was only one FAA rating and it was "Parachute Rigger".

In 1976, the rating was split into two seperate ratings as we now know as Senior and Master Rigger.

The reason was that some people complained that the previous ratings was just too hard to achieve.
These same people just wanted to be able to pack their own reserves and do very minor maintenance.

BTW, riggers with the "Parachute Rigger" rating were automatically grandfathered to a Master Rigger certificate.

BS,
MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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The question partly comes from curiosity. I have been looking at secondhand classifieds and people often make statements like 'my rigger said xyz' or 'it will need a new lineset next season'.

This got me curious as to what qualifies a rigger to inspect and what level of work they can do.



First off, on a main canopy, anyone can inspect it as the inspection is not a condition of airworthy-ness or use. It's up to the jumper what they feel is safe to put in the main container, and what they want to jump. Of course, most people trust a rigger to do a pre-purchase inspection on a used main, but it's not a requirement.

A reserve or harness/container, on the other hand, is a different story. They require an I&R (inspect and repack) every 6 months in order to be 'legal' to jump in the US, and this must be done by an FAA rigger. Technically, this is different than a pre-purchase inspection, in that you can feel free to buy anything you want, inspected or not, but then you run the risk that it will not pass the 'I' part of the I&R, and without passing the 'I', there's no 'R'.

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There is an MOS for parachute riggers in the military. They are afforded an easy way of converting their qualification to an FAA rating. They need only take a written test covering the FAR's (25 questions) and they may be awarded the FAA Senior Rigger rating, no oral/practical needed... which TYPE, I don't know, but I presume chest would be given and possibly back/seat if they have the training and practice working on them as well.



TOS,
The correct rigger MOS used to a requirement, but is no longer.
Any MOS can be listed on the 8610-2 now.

The newest stance is that if the current (or served in the past 6 months) military applicant has a letter from his/her commanding officer, stating that the applicant has meet the necessary experience for the rating sought, he or she is eligible for the Military Comp rating.

As you have already stated, the applicant only needs to successfully pass a written exam of 25 questions.
After that we (DPRE's) or any FAA inspector can issue a 8060-4 (Temp Certificate) to the applicant.

The temp will reflect all ratings that the applicant has met the required experience and the required number of pack jobs of.

In other words, the applicant could possibly have more than just one rating listed on his/her certificate.

Cheers,
MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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Quote


No matter how BA your local rigger claims to be or even how highly he/she is regarded amongst the locals, I always suggest sending the canopy back to the manufacturer for a reline.


I find this is extremely hard to argue against.
Have BA master riggers gotten it right? Yes.
Have BA master riggers gotten it wrong? Yes.

On top of that, buying a line set from the manufacturer doesn't guarantee that it's going to be the right one for your canopy.
I'll reference you to Aerodyne and the Triathlon with the 4.0 mod.


I have heard at least one instance that a tandem reserve was connected and packed with all the lines being held on to the canopy with safety pins... It was sealed and jumped for the duration of the repack cycle. The mfgr didn't bartack the lines. Shit happens, nobody is perfect.


MEL:
Quote


In 1976, the rating was split into two separate ratings as we now know as Senior and Master Rigger.

The reason was that some people complained that the previous ratings was just too hard to achieve.
These same people just wanted to be able to pack their own reserves and do very minor maintenance.

BTW, riggers with the "Parachute Rigger" rating were automatically grandfathered to a Master Rigger certificate.



Explain this then:

Quote

Date of Issue: 1/14/1969
Certificate: SENIOR PARACHUTE RIGGER
Ratings:
SENIOR PARACHUTE RIGGER
BACK
CHEST



:P
"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
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Hi Mark,

Disclaimer: I do not work for the FAA and cannot define the FAR's as to be factual.

However from my personal experience, you could not be more wrong.

In 1965 I received my Senior Rigger ticket for Back & Chest. In 1971 I received my Master Rigger ticket for Back & Chest.

JerryBaumchen

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***
In 1976, the rating was split into two separate ratings as we now know as Senior and Master Rigger.

The reason was that some people complained that the previous ratings was just too hard to achieve.
These same people just wanted to be able to pack their own reserves and do very minor maintenance.

BTW, riggers with the "Parachute Rigger" rating were automatically grandfathered to a Master Rigger certificate.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Explain this then:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Date of Issue: 1/14/1969
Certificate: SENIOR PARACHUTE RIGGER
Ratings:
SENIOR PARACHUTE RIGGER
BACK
CHEST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




oppps .errrr 1960 something but I will get back to you on it.!


MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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However from my personal experience, you could not be more wrong.



Jerry,
Only on the dates!

I know it (the change) was before they changed the rule that allowed a person to train under the supervision of a senior rigger instead of the beforehand, Master rigger. That change was in 1972 BTW.

MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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Jerry,
We, the DPRE's, have the possibilty of issuing an added rating to a person with just a "parachute rigger"certificate.
Therefore, we have training for such at our recurrent seminars which includes said the above scenario.

If you look at the original Pointers Manual, Chapter II, page 27, paragraph 6, you will note a reference to changes to the FAR's.
It list 1972 as the year ( and I was recalling badly @ 1976), but upon further review, I think this is a mis-print.
It should read 1962...

Also I have emailed you the earliest reference to show how far back the regs used just "Parachute Rigger".

This is from a 1937 Air Commerce Manual used by the CAA (now FAA).
If I knew how to resize it, I would post it here...

Cheers,
MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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***

BTW, riggers with the "Parachute Rigger" rating were automatically grandfathered to a Master Rigger certificate.
***

Well, another mistake!:S
It should read Senior instead of Master there.

See below:


... a parachute rigger certificate that was issued before, and was valid on, October 31, 1962, is equal to a senior parachute rigger certificate, and may be exchanged for such a corresponding certificate.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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