Another "chop or don't chop"

[Beachbum 0]

Odd coincidences yesterday ... discussing riggers/reserve repacks with someone inside, then get to the loading area and someone is talking about a lineover. Board and ride up, jump, initiate deployment right about 4 grand ... open and realize I've got a minor line twist. As I start tugging risers, I begin a turn ... line twist out, release risers ... turn is now a bit of a dive, and it continues! Right rear riser levels me off, and I look up a 2nd time to discover I've got a line over ... 3rd cell from left. I pull left rear down far enough to get me into a hard left turn, release ... moves out to the 2nd cell ... repeat ... moves to end cell ... repeat 2 more times, but it doesn't seem to want to totally clear. I'm now at about 2,100 ... figure it's time to get rid of it, and have my hands on my handles when I realize it's now flying straight and level with no input (brakes still stowed). I actually thought ... well, there's a pretty good wind today, and that will help me if I keep it ... so quickly tried a couple of pretty hard rear riser flares, then a couple of turns ... everything stable, so decided to land it. Learned one thing for sure ... a rear riser flare does NOT slow you down nearly as much as it seems like it does when you practice them up high!! Landing wasn't pretty, but I came away with a minimally sore ankle and nothing else ... and that might not have been so bad if I hadn't gone and played construction worker for about 6 hours afterward ... LOL! I jump a triathlon 160 loaded just about right on 1:1.

SOOOoooo ... 4 questions ...

1) Would you have chopped it anyway?

2) How do I figure out what I did to cause the lineover ... I'm always what I at least THINK is very careful packing??

3) I figure I now need to closely inspect that whole end of the canopy ... including lines, attachment points, etc. ... anything else ???

4) anything else I need to take from this?

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[NickDG 23]

>>anything else I need to take from this?
Carry a hook knife.

What would you do if this happend on your reserve?

NickD BASE 194

[TALONSKY 0]

IMHO, If you have to question more than once if it is landable or not it is time to get rid of it. Mals generally will not get better but worse as flight time cotinues.
Kirk

[strop45 0]

Good job. If it had of been me, then I would have unstowed the brakes and given them 3 large flares to try and clear the lineover. Assuming that the lineover was a brake line, then releasing them will reduce the distortion of the canopy.

The other point to remember is that 2100' under an almost normal canopy is quite different to being at terminal velocity at 2100'. It is important that you remain altitude aware, but IMO you can cutaway lower than you could while at terminal velocity and still be under a functioning reserve at a higher altitude. Other more experienced skydivers may have a different opinion? Note, students, I am NOT advocating lowering your hard deck, talk to your instructors and stick to your plan.

Blue Skies Wayne

The difference between stupidity and genius is that genius has its limits." -- Albert Einstein

[chrismgtis 0]

You lived and with no real injuries.

I've chopped for a whole lot less than that.

Rodriguez Brother #1614, Muff Brother #4033
Jumped: Twin Otter, Cessna 182, CASA, Helicopter, Caravan

[councilman24 36]

Ditto on the hook knife. but practice with it on the ground and in the air. i.e. Can you get it out and use it without dropping it. And will it cut butter. Some won't.

But, I HATE to see someone cutaway a landable canopy. And use their LAST CHANCE TO LIVE. Reserves do malfunction.

That being said I almost never tell someone they shouldn't have cutaway. They were there, I wasn't.

I think you did good. I probably would have chopped it but been mad about it later.

Inspect the whole thing, including bridle, bag and PC. You never know what went through what.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[azureriders 0]

the coucilman pretty much summed up my opinion as to the answers of your questions, but I would like to add a point. Any time you have line twist, there are more things to thiking about other than just kicking. Altitude and air space being two, but also a square canopy. I wasn't there, you were, but I would like to think that you should probably have seen the line over before you ever got the the line twist free.

Good job on remaining amoung the living, and walking.

[Beachbum 0]

Hook knife ... I now own one, but haven't gotten a place sewn on anywhere yet to carry it (a double bladed one, which I was advised toward by a couple of crewdog types). I know ... a lot of good it does to have it if it's not ON me! Have to remedy that.

Questioning landability twice? ... not really. When I first found the lineover I knew it was NOT in that condition, but I had also been taught to try to clear that ... so didn't truly try to decide that until I had already attempted to get it corrected. Even after getting the line to move from the 3rd cell to the end cell, I had figured to chop until I had both hands on handles and realized it was flying well on it's own. I still had altitude, so THEN did a flyability check with the flares and turns and made the decision to keep it.

The pump method ... taught to me also, but I've heard a lot of instances where releasing brakes made things worse (granted, I could not remember if any of those were lineovers, but I knew I could fly it ok in brakes) ... which is why I used the method I did to try to clear it, and it almost worked. Looking back, I might should have released brakes and pumped, yes.

Altitude awareness ... I did check my alt a few times during all that, and think I stayed on top of that part ok. Airspace I always check on opening, starting as I'm getting stood up and during line stretch ... and all around before I look up to check the canopy. I was well clear of everyone. I agree that I probably should have caught the lineover on initial inspection. My eyes got as far up as the twist, and I went right to work on stretching risers to undo that. In this case, it didn't really matter, but there could be times when it could.

Any input on what it might be that I did wrong packing?? I pro pack, and am pretty meticulous ... so I'm now wondering if the manner I was taught left me open to this possibility, or if I just screwed up!

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[brettski74 0]

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when I realize it's now flying straight and level with no input (brakes still stowed). I actually thought ... well, there's a pretty good wind today, and that will help me if I keep it ... so quickly tried a couple of pretty hard rear riser flares, then a couple of turns ... everything stable, so decided to land it.

It sounds like you never unstowed the brakes. Am I reading that right? While I'm not for a moment suggesting that a rear riser flare will be the same as a toggle flare, leaving the brakes stowed will have a lot to do with the poor performance of your rear riser flare.

[d123 1]

Hi NickDG,
Quick question for youWhat's the difference between the break lines routed through a riser ring and break lines being free (not routed through a ring like I've seen on some base canopies)?
Does not having the break lines routed decrease the chance of line over from a break line?
Is it easy to fix a line over from a break line if the break line is not going through a riser ring?

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[Andy9o8 0]

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But, I HATE to see someone cutaway a landable canopy. And use their LAST CHANCE TO LIVE. Reserves do malfunction.

Agreed. On the other hand, a lineover has the potential to saw thru the topskin - maybe less likely with an end cell, and if that happens at 100 feet, or if that end cell collapses at 100 feet, and the canopy suddenly goes into a hard turn...ugh.

[hookitt 0]

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Hi NickDG,
Quick question for youWhat's the difference between the break lines routed through a riser ring and break lines being free (not routed through a ring like I've seen on some base canopies)?
Does not having the break lines routed decrease the chance of line over from a break line?
Is it easy to fix a line over from a break line if the break line is not going through a riser ring?

In BASE, Routing the control lines outside the guide rings is for deployments with the slider down or off. If there is a brake lineover, releasing the offending line should end the lineover.

With a slider, the control line is passed through the rear slider grommets and also the guide rings. With a terminal deployment, routing the control lines outside of the guide rings and slider grommets most likely result in an abrupt and quite possibly destructive opening. Also, the brake lines help push the slider down as the canopy expands.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Beachbum 0]

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It sounds like you never unstowed the brakes. Am I reading that right? While I'm not for a moment suggesting that a rear riser flare will be the same as a toggle flare, leaving the brakes stowed will have a lot to do with the poor performance of your rear riser flare.

Correct ... left them stowed. No doubt it does make a difference on the flare using rears, which ... aside from the testing aspect relative to the lineover, was another reason I did a couple while still up high. I was still able to crank down enough on them that if I had held it long, I could have stalled the canopy. I was holding the risers right on top of the links.

About the line cutting thru the topskin ... I had thought about it possibly putting a slice in it, but did not figure it would be there long enough to put a cut of any real length in there. Is that a common occurrance with a lineover??

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[Andy9o8 0]

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About the line cutting thru the topskin ... I had thought about it possibly putting a slice in it, but did not figure it would be there long enough to put a cut of any real length in there. Is that a common occurrance with a lineover??

Not terribly common, but it is possible - but keep in mind that the statistical sampling of line-overed canopies that are flown all the way to landing isn't all that large, since most lineovers tend to either get cleared or cut away by hard deck.

The thing is, the opening forces might have begun a tear in the topskin at the lineover point, but you can't see it. The canopy seems to fly stably enough, lulling you into keeping it. In the meantime, that tear could work its way larger to the point where the canopy's performance deteriorates drastically. If that happens below cutaway altitude, your life has just gotten very interesting.

One more thing that bears noting: even a seemingly stable line-overed canopy might have a deceptively high descent rate - which, unless you can accurately gauge relative to other canopies flying near you, you won't be able to discern at hard deck altitude. By the time you do realize it, you're so low that there isn't much you can do about it other than a damned good PLF.

[JohnRich 4]

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One more thing that bears noting: even a seemingly stable line-overed canopy might have a deceptively high descent rate - which, unless you can accurately gauge relative to other canopies flying near you, you won't be able to discern at hard deck altitude.

And that brings up the subject of the old-fashioned "spit test". The idea is that a wad of spit, just like a big raindrop, falls at a rate which represents the maximum you can land safely without getting hurt. So, churn up a gob of fluid in your mouth and spit it out. Patooie! If the spit goes "up" relative to your descent rate, then you're descending too fast for a safe landing - cut-away! However, if the spit goes down" relative to yourself, then you're still okay, because you're descending slower than the maximum safe speed.

[Beachbum 0]

Very good point about the descent rate. I did think about that, and realized I didn't have a good way to gauge it ... looking at the angle my collapsed pilot trailed was the only thing that I came up with on the spur of the moment, but it looked just about the same as always to me. I don't think it WOULD vary too much no matter what, would it?

I'd never heard that about the spit ... thanks John!

As long as you are happy with yourself ... who cares what the rest of the world thinks?

[d123 1]

Does it work with ram air parachutes?
Even if you manage to spit without spiting yourself at 30 mph air speed the spit goes outside visual range pretty fast.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[JohnRich 4]

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Does it work with ram air parachutes?
Even if you manage to spit without spiting yourself at 30 mph air speed the spit goes outside visual range pretty fast.

Well, if you have a lot of forward speed, spit out to the side, so it doesn't come back and splat on you. And if it goes out of sight fast below you, then that's okay, because it means that your descent rate is okay. If it floats back up above you, then you may have a problem. You only need to see it for about one second to figure out which way it's going. Try it on a normal parachute opening and see how it works. But not over a crowd!

[AlRedler 0]

If you landed it safely then you made the right decision for the time. I think I would have chopped it though. The risk of something going wrong at low altitude and putting me in the ground would be high enough for me not to risk it. Even fairly tame modern canopies can behave badly if flying unevenly. 2,100 is plenty high enough to chop especially when stable.

I would not want to rely on cutting a line of my main, I would actually rather trust the reserve. If the reserve had the same line over then cutting the line would be my choice but that is then the next best option.

Not trusting the reserve and preferring to fly a defective main seems to me an odd decision to make.

Al

[d123 1]

I see what you mean. I'm going to try it in flare tests where the airspeed is lower. Thanks for the heads up.

Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

[Andy9o8 0]

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If you landed it safely then you made the right decision for the time.

This fallacy: result-based analysis - is too often repeated in skydiving. The lack of a disastrous result does not necesarily equate the right decision.

[AlRedler 0]

So you agree with what I would have done then?

However. there are malfunctions that do not have clear decision path. For example line twists are usually not a reason to cut away, but can get to a point where chopping is the best option, especially on a high perfomance canopy. A line over that seems stable and where the canopy is flying smoothly may be another. It is not one I favour, but there are others who prefer to treat the reserve as a last resort, and would fly the main if they believe they can.

As an example, I had a mal that was accelerating a spin. I cut away and then delayed deploying the reserve for a couple of seconds to get stable when doing so. I knew I had height to do so and was under the reserve at around 1100'. Otherwise I would not. I know the SP is to pull both handles as quickly as possible but was going unstable after a two handed pull. A year later one of my friends did exactly the same thing. We were both able to decide in that fraction of a second what was most likely to get us under a stable reserve. I would not tell others to do the same, but don't think I was wrong either.

In the end it is down to the pilot. It is up to all of us to understand our equipment and know the SPs properly. Then we can make the right decision for what we end up with.

[Andy9o8 0]

My point was really just a narrow one: I get tired of hearing the old cliche: "Hey, you lived, so the way you handled it must have been an ok decision" - because that's just not necessarily the case, and it sends a bad message to less-experienced jumpers.

[AlRedler 0]

I agree. Having consistent procedures helps to avoid that. Surviving through luck doesn't signify good judgement!

[pirana 0]

I'd chop aunclearable lineover just because of the potential for canopy damage. Not explicitly because of the canopy damage, but because it might damage it before I got to a safe landing.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley