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This "brake fire" thing....

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Ok.......maybe I'm missing something here, as I am one of the people that doesn't stow my excess brake line (or sometimes do, depends on if I pack it or someone else does)...but I'm missing how exactly the excess brake line contributes to a toggle fire?

My toggles have a tab on top and pin at the bottom for stowing, and I fold the excess neatly beside the riser and place it in the rig (Mirage G3). Every time I open there it is trailing nicely in the wind, and the only thing I have to watch out for is a brake lock if I am dumb enough to reach through the loop



I agree that the loop itself is unlikely to cause a brake fire, although I can imagine a couple of scenarios where it might:

say you have a hard opening and the slider comes slamming down the lines, snags the loop, and pops the toggle. Unlikley? yeah, if the keeper is in good shape... if it's not in good shape, maybe not that unlikley.

A lot of people grab their risers (intentionally or not) during opening. You could easily be grabbing the loop, and an unexpected tug during opening could pop a toggle. Or, you could be doing a rear-riser collision avoidance turn right after opening and do the same thing.

Or, as you said, you could reach through the loop. Dumb? yeah, but smart people do dumb shit sometimes. Then you could have the brakeline tied in a knot, making it hard to flare properly, or tied in a knot around the guide ring (I've seen it!), forcing a cutaway or some "creative" flying. or, you could get the loop wrapped around your wrist.

Are these out-there possibilities? might seem like it, but you'd be surprised. But here's the bottom line:

Give me even one valid reason NOT to stow the brake line.
"Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."

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I,ve had 2 brake fires in 161 jumps. The last being this last weekend that caused me the hardest opening I've ever had. Read my post on this forum, Riser twists with camera. Not sure what caused my brake fire but I do know I have no other way to stow my excess brake lines other than in my stow loops on my risers, I used to do that but when I release my brakes the excess line would eventually saw through the elastic loops. The rigger at the time told me not to stow my lines there, but to just fold them neatly with my risers when I tuck them in. My rig is now with my rigger for a repack and to repair the loops that tore loose on this weekends opening. I'm going to call him and have him sew some velcro to stow this excess line. I don't like the idea of all this line being so free to do what it wants.


I may be getting old but I got to see all the cool bands.

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>but I'm missing how exactly the excess brake line contributes to a toggle fire?

1) Brake line escapes riser channel and flaps in the wind. Wind eventually tugs toggle free of the stow.

2) During opening, riser comes near helmet/other riser and the excess brake line gets wrapped a bit. Toggle is tugged on and releases.

3) During opening, free line knots with other free line, and one of the toggles gets released (and now brake lines are knotted.)

4) During opening, excess line catches air and tugs out toggle.

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But here's the bottom line:

Give me even one valid reason NOT to stow the brake line.



Exactly. I've been one who accidently reached through the line and snagged my hand. I know a Master Rigger who preaches to people to not bother stowing them. Drives me insane! No one has ever given me a valid reason not to stow it - its pure and simple laziness. Stowing the brake lines will not hurt you, and might help.

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I don't get why people leave stowing their brakes up to the packer in the first place. Or uncollapsing their slider and cocking their pilot chute.



If your going to pack for pay & under supervision of my riggers ticket, then your going to earn the money by doing the whole job start to finish!

When I pack my own canopy part of the pack job would be doing the stowing of the brakes, uncollapsing the slider, and resetting the PC as well as flake'n, folding and baggin and line stows and bag placement and closing the container and folding and placing the the PC in the BOC.

There for if I hire a packer to do the job and pay them money to do it, I expect them to do the whole job or offer a nice discount per pack job, like 3 bucks! When did it become in fashion to allow lazy ass people to pack for money? If you can't do it right then don't do it.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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If your going to pack for pay & under supervision of my riggers ticket, then your going to earn the money by doing the whole job start to Finnish!



You are going to take my packjob to Finland?

In all seriousness. It has been a year since I hired a packer (was on a video shoot and we had packers while we were working on the next shot)... But still... I want to set my own brakes. Please, please, please don't "fix" what I have done.

I have discovered the small details on my risers that make me comfortable and happy. If I started the stowing of the brakes, don't "finish" without asking.

Also... Any time your risers have a loop sewn on the riser, front or back, to "push" the excess into - you run the risk of a nasty mal.

I have attached photos to show how it happens. It seems some large PD (and others I am sure) products have very deep brake settings and the loop between the toggle and catseye is large enough that this mal happened enough times in a row on some student rigs, that the rig owner opted to cut off the loops on the risers and leave the line loose.

Here is a narrative of the photos - so you know what you are looking at:

1) Brake line stowed in keeper
2) On opening, brake line falls out, blows out, or is sloppy packed in the first place
3) With a bit of wind, a slider blocking view, or a quick grab - you by accident get your hand thru the excess loop.
4) with your hand thru the loop, you release your toggle.
5) Knot format #1 - around the riser
6) Knot format #2 - around the keeper loop

Many rigs have these types of loops on the back of the risers. Use carefully.

Oh... BTW. Yes, those are not skydiving risers, and they have some non-OEM mods, so don't try this at home kids...

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You are going to take my packjob to Finland



:$:P Maybe if it's a nice rig.....:P

The thing is we see all kinds of fancy new crap hit the market in order to woo todays fashion savy skydivers to buy the latest greatest bullshit, some of the new toys are great for the design (3-ring/skyhook come to mind) but with brake line stows, a .2 cent rubber band works just fine attached to the links, hard or soft as well as the velcro stow, if you have or build the right kind, so why try to reinvent the friken wheel? To sell more shit, look cool or brag'n rights about how you got the hot new XYZ risers and that's it.

So if, as in your photos that was a problem, there would be a rubber band attached to the links, end of problem.
you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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My rig is now with my rigger for a repack and to repair the loops that tore loose on this weekends opening.



Sorry to say, they tore loose because the catseye was not pulled through the guide ring before stowing the toggles. The toggles were stowed above the guide ring and put into the toggle keeper. There's no other way for the keepers to rip apart.
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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Look again there homes at the thing called "line retainer" in the photo, that would be a velcro style line stow, NOT a .2 cent rubber band attached to a link. However you get a gold star for knowing where to look for the info/answer.;)

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Look again there homes at the thing called "line retainer" in the photo, that would be a velcro style line stow, NOT a .2 cent rubber band attached to a link. However you get a gold star for knowing where to look for the info/answer.;)



Scroll down a little farther mr house. ;)
My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

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However you get a gold star for knowing where to look for the info/answer.;)


Let's not jump to conclusions there ;)
But if it's all the same to you I'll take some good landings over the golden star. Never fully understood why the gold is so damn precious anyway.

If anything because of this tread I'll pay more attention on how I stow and unstow my toggles.

Happy Landings,
Jean-Arthur Deda.
Lock, Dock and Two Smoking Barrelrolls!

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Reading, shit it was to late at night for reading, I was taking about the photo. Don't like gold stars eh, ok from now on I only award dog turds, there free and theres a bunch in my back yard.....what was your mailing address again......:P oh yea I 'll read it later, got to go teach FJC.

Ok got what your point is......But if you look in photo 1 & 2 of the post I was replying to, it also has the same type of "stow", the poster said, the line kept falling out and getting in the way (not misrouting) and my reply was and is, get a .2cent rubber band and stow the shit already!;):P

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

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Many rigs have these types of loops on the back of the risers. Use carefully.

Awesome rope trick!B| Looks like one of those magic tricks.

Maybe a closed in, spandex pouch on the risers would hold the excess line. It works well for our pilot chutes on the BOC. Wear might be a problem.

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You are probably right about this. I'm very anal about setting my brakes as soon as I land and that they are properly stowed but it is sure not out of the realm of possibility that I missed that. Thanks for the input. It could explain alot.


I may be getting old but I got to see all the cool bands.

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I always set the brakes upon landing. What gets me is those who 1/2 set their brakes upon landing. Fortunately I've gotten in the habit of checking that they are correctly set and giving the brake line a tug to make sure. Caught one set on the wrong side of the ring that way - coule have been ugly.

As for the posted illustrations that sort of thing has happened on the rig I rent/fly once. Had to do an under-canopy un-knotting to fly it. It has the type of toggles that attach top and bottom so the extra gets fed through the slot on the back of the riser then around to the front and under the bottom tab. I don't like it one bit.

-Michael

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My rig is now with my rigger for a repack and to repair the loops that tore loose on this weekends opening.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Torn fabric toggle hoods mean that they were taking the load instead of the steel steering guide rings.

Sounds like your brakes were accidentally stowed ABOVE the guide rings.
The same thing happened the last time I suffered a "brake fire" on a tandem. During line stretch, I looked up, saw something odd about the right brake stow, then watched it release!
Every time I wander around the packing floor, I see some one stowing their brakes ABOVE their steering guide rings.
Sorry, but I do not believe in "brake fires." Instead, I believe that too many distracted packers are not pulling cat's eyes below guide rings before stowing brakes.

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The more I've thought about this since it happened, I think you are absolutely right. As I said prviously I set my brakes upon landing but on the previous jump to this one I had on off field landing and was pretty pre-occupied with that and probably set my brakes when I got back to the packing area. Thanks for the input.


I may be getting old but I got to see all the cool bands.

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