Jumpships down

[stratostar 5]

Many new people posting here are living through their first or second large loss of jumpers with the crash in WA. Many of us older jumpers can think back to many lost AC's, with all these crashes there is always something to learn, sadly it is at the expense of the passangers in the AC and sometimes people on the ground the plane falls on.

To many new/young jumpers are left in shock when an even like this happends and always ask the question " they had parachutes why/how didn't they get out?" There are many reasons as to why only some or none get out at all in the events of the past.

These events of the past should be a big wake up call for a lot you, yet many of you seem to think your the exceptions to the laws of physics & gravity because you wear a parachute or have the mindset your just better then others. (http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2972009#2972009)

It is well documented that just because you have a rig on or with in reach of you, that your NOT always going to get out of a crashing AC. Yet all to offten we hear people make statements contrary to what we know as facts based on the past events. Or we still see people boarding the AC not ready to bail out in an event.

There are many reasons as to why these AC's went down, from poor piloting, CG, lack of planing, fuel, weather, botched buzz jobs and a whole host of other "links in the chain" of events. It is never easy to know that a whole load of our friends died while wearing their parachutes and had enough altitude to make a safe bail out or they had parachutes in the AC but were not wearing them.

The latest event should hammer home for a lot of the new and younger jumpers, that you may not get out!

beech 18 Honolulu Hi.
Loadstar Silvania W.A.
Beech 18 Taft Ca.
C-208 Jekinsburg Ga.
Totter Perris Ca.
Beech 18 Hinckley Ill.
KA West Point Va.
KA Lake Point Ut.
KA Marine City Mi.
C-182 Grain Valley MO
C-205 Holmstead Fl.
C-205 Celina Oh.
Totter Sullivan Mo.

To name a few, if you already have not heard or read about the listed crashes, you can find all the facts about each event I listed as well as many others, here www.diverdriver.com/Accidents/accidents.htm Chris has taking the time to build the website and look up the reports for everyone to learn from the past that has taken so many of our friends over the years. You owe it to yourself, so please take the time to educate youself and learn how to break the "chain of events" if we can and be ready to bail out each time you board the AC.

Blue skies to all of our fallen brothers and sisters, we miss you all!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[hongkongluna 0]

How long is the flight between the two places they were traveling to/from? Would they have been wearing their rigs that whole time?

Also, if pilot did "controlled flight into terrain" or they had not much warning of malfunctions in engines, how would they have had time to get out?

Out of curiosity, how many times have jumpers actually bailed out to safety and then the plane went in ?

Being relatively new to this sport, I havent seen any ,or heard much about, plane crashes etc.

-Rainier

Sparks Brother #1 // "I vaguely heard someone yell "wait!" but by that point i was out the door." Quote from dz.com somewhere

[stratostar 5]

Quote

How long is the flight

IDK 2-3 hrs?

Quote

Would they have been wearing their rigs that whole time?

I would have & I would sit next to the door if at all possible to improve my odds of getting out if we had to, but I don't know what others would do.

Quote

if pilot did "controlled flight into terrain" or they had not much warning of malfunctions in engines, how would they have had time to get out?

Well if the pilot fly's into terrain, your screwed. As for time to get out, in the recent case we don't know yet, to early to know.

To a point your missing my point of the post.

Quote

Out of curiosity, how many times have jumpers actually bailed out to safety and then the plane went in ?

There have been a number of them, in most cases the one who got out didn't jump out, they were thrown out by the centrifugal forces due to the spinning.

Quote

Being relatively new to this sport, I havent seen any ,or heard much about, plane crashes etc.

I hav provided you with a link to some very good reading about all the AC I listed as well as many many more then if you'll take the time to go read the reports that are linked on the www.driverdriver.com website, the questions you have asked in your post will be answered for you in a factual manner.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[billvon 2,379]

Good post. There are so many ways to crash an airplane and very few of them allow for a clean exit. Running into a mountain in IMC gives you zero warning, and a "death spiral" caused by a non-IFR rated pilot in IMC can cause too many G's for people to be able to open doors and exit. Indeed, in many cases the pilot is going to be yelling for everyone to stay put as he tries to deal with the problem so he doesn't have to deal with changing CG as well.

[rapper4mpi 0]

I've been in a queen air that had engine trouble at 7,000 ft. Fourtunately, we had good pilots and had altitude for everyone to get out and the aircraft landed safely on one engine. However, that is not the point of writing this.

When you are in a situation like this, even if there IS time to think, often you are awaiting instructions from the pilot. Taking matters into your own hands might save you, but it is a weird thing to do when you are actually in the situation. Opening a door and jumping out, depending on the aircraft and situation can often make the situation worse....

Anyway, thought I would share with you all a little insight.
-Rapper

[phoenixlpr 0]

Quote

Opening a door and jumping out, depending on the aircraft and situation can often make the situation worse....

Why is that so?

[klafollette 0]

Early reports were a flight altitude of 13K ASL, and terrain in that area looks to be in the 7-9K range. One news report had the radar tracked descent at 7000ft/min. That's 80 mph straight down. That would give you something like 30 seconds to wake up, figure out there's a problem, decide to bail-out, get your rig on, while everything is vertical and spinning, climb over seats, get a standard door open (if even possible), and get out before 1000ft. That would be very difficult in the best of circumstances.

I've been in the back of a caravan by the door chunking a base with big guys, when it stalled. That slammed me against wall, ceiling, floor to the point where I couldn't get out if I wanted to, and that was with the door open 3 feet away from me.

Other than the occasional time wearing my rig in the copilot's seat, I never traveled x-country in a jump-plane with seats installed. But I would imagine it wouldn't be very comfortable, and on a 2 hour trip, probably wouldn't have been wearing my rig.

I'm wondering what are the O2 requirements on a flight like this? Thought O2 was required for the pilot over 10K for 30min, something like that? What effect would 2 hours at 13K have on passengers not on O2? Would they be a little hypoxic or groggy, with reduced facilties to make critical decisions.

[nigel99 143]

Quote

Out of curiosity, how many times have jumpers actually bailed out to safety and then the plane went in ?

Our club had 2 accidents.

The first I was not in however someone was sitting in the co-pilots seat and on rotation they got spooked (student I think from memory) and leaned back into the control column causing the plane to nose-dive Everyone survived and a friend was thrown from the plane with no injuries.

The 2nd we were at about 1500ft when we had some sort of catastrophic engine failure that caused hot-oil to piss all over the windscreen. I was a T10 static line student (I was a slow learner - too poor to progress quickly as I was 16/17 years old at the time - it was about jump 15)and the pilot was not prepared to risk his life playing games with drag etc, so I was given the choice of landing with the plane - or getting out directly onto my reserve . I chose to stay with the plane much to the distress of the despatcher/jump-master (it meant he had to stay to). The other 3 went out onto their mains directly with no choice or options about where they got out - just dive exits (nearish) a local road.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[Bill_K 0]

Stratostar,

First, thank you for creating this thread as I did not feel comfortable posting in the other two about what I'm going to say below.

Second, as a flight instructor, pilot, fellow skydiver, and former Capt. in the Civil Air Patrol who used to fly search and rescue on things like this; my heart goes out to those that were lost and their families. I do not think that I knew anybody on board, but there is still a bond there that causes a pain in my heart for them, a bond that cross's boundaries in a strange way that I did not know could exist.

========================

What I wanted to post in the other thread. When I was in college we lost a very good CFII to a stall/spin accident in the Mt.'s west of Colorado Springs. He and two students got up a box canyon in VFR and when they tried to turn and leave they got up to MCA and then went over that and spun in. The student in the back seat was videoing the entire thing. He and the student in the left seat lived and were rescued. (So there is always hope!!) The CFI was killed. In that accident the tail was broken off the plane at impact and was laying a few yards away. I've done many stalls during my training and I can say without a doubt that even though I had a parachute on for many of them, I do not know that I could have gotten out of the plane if I had needed to. From the press conference they were found if memory serves at about 4,700 ft. That means they had less than one minute to register and react to what was happening. Even when I'm hurrying I can't gear up in less than a minute. Much less gear up, get a door open and then jump. Now add to the fact that many were probably sleeping...

The tail being missing in this case to me says that the plane probably has a couple of impact sites. This is very common with high speed impact sites. If the news reports are to be believed that the plane was descending at 7000 fpm, then it's air speed would be cranking and the main tail being separated a long ways from the main body of the plane is not that unexpected. I don't think the tail being gone was the cause, but merely a result, possibly structural failure from trying to recover to quickly or as a direct result of the impact it's self.

My first thoughts after I started reading through the local conditions, the first reports, and after watching the the press conference today, etc is that this was probably an icing induced stall/spin or death spiral due to spatial disorientation accident.

========================

I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything of that sort. I'm making some observations based on my own personal experiences and my personal feelings. They are just that, my own.

I must Echo: Blue skies to all of our fallen brothers and sisters, we already miss you all!

[councilman24 36]

I've been in a 182 that came out of a cloud nose down, inverted, positive g's (into the floor). Setting on my knees in jumpmaster position. No way I was able to get out unless the g's let up. Luckily we were at 7000' and the non IR pilot managed to recover. Shoot, his turn and bank didn't even work.

Getting out is a nice thought, and with engine failure at altitude much more likely than an uncontrolled descent.

But I'd sure like to know if that Caravan's door was open when it crashed. Hopefully we will hear 3 first hand accounts.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[DanG 1]

Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In Reply To
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Opening a door and jumping out, depending on the aircraft and situation can often make the situation worse....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why is that so?

Opening the door affects the aerodynamics. People piling towards the door affects the CG. People jumping out and hitting the tail damages the plane.

Getting out without the pilot's permission may improve your odds while at the same time screwing everyone else on the plane.

- Dan G

Opening

[hongkongluna 0]

Loadstar Silvania W.A. - if you have the alti, you might get out & survive

Beech 18 Taft Ca. - plane over weight limit, crash immediately after take-off, low alti, nothing you can do but ride it in...

C-208 Jekinsburg Ga. - crash immediately after take-off, low alti, nothing you can do but ride it in...

Totter Perris Ca. - crash immediately after take-off...

Beech 18 Hinckley Ill. - crash immediately after take-off...


KA West Point Va. - weight limit exceeded, plane crashed immediately after take-off

KA Lake Point Ut. - bad weather/visibility, AC had inadequate instruments for IFR - pilot put everyone in the water, flying thru fog & snow.

KA Marine City Mi. - crash immediately after take-off

C-182 Grain Valley MO - why didnt these guys get out???? They canceled the skydive flight at about 3700msl (KC Intl Airport is at 1000ft amsl) Perhaps the pilot told everyone to stay put that they could make it back ?

C-205 Holmstead Fl. - spin down from 3500 ft. 1 jumper got out.


C-205 Celina Oh. - AC had sufficient altitude when it ran out of fuel that 3 jumpers were able to get out.


Totter Sullivan Mo. - crash immediately after take-off.

--
Taking into consideration what i could pick up from those NTSB reports, it seems like most of the crashes were from low enough altitudes that there would be nothing you can do except ride it in and hope.

Besides reminding me to gear check to prevent deployments in the plane & hanging on the tail, etc... i dont see what else there is to learn from your original post or the NTSB reports except for 'it can happen to you too' That point is well taken and i hope my home DZ is spared tragedies like these..

what am i missing in terms of what i can do to "break the chain" besides just be near the door when possible, be ready to bail, and hope we're high enough ?

-Rainier

Sparks Brother #1 // "I vaguely heard someone yell "wait!" but by that point i was out the door." Quote from dz.com somewhere

[Racenic 0]

I have a Question and a Suggestion.

It's my understanding that FAA rules / regulations are all persons in the rear of a jump ship must wear a rig.
Question is: Is this true? In addition is this only when it's being used for skydiving activities? (i.e. Door is open or going to be in flight)
As opposed to being used for transportation between airports as is this case.

I'm just looking for the truth / answer here on the rule or regulation,


Now the Suggestion: Since this is a thread to educate, the first time you use an abbreviation or acronyms please add the definition of such. Then there after continue with the abbreviations or an acronym in the rest of your information.
For example IMC or IFR means what to the un-educated??
Non-IFR (instrument flight rating) rated pilot.......



A little trivia, According to the owner / pilot of the De Havilland DHC-6 (Twin Otter) while flying on a 9 mile jump run (alt unknown) to film the final scene of Point Break
The vertical stabilizer and rudder was cut off the plane by the rotors of the helicopter flying in formation to capture the exit from the plane. (Mid Air Collision)
On board (in the rear of the plane) were members of the film crew who were geared up and ordered to jump out, as the pilot had his hands full trying to gain control of the plane. You can read a brief statement about it on diver driver’s website under 1990 or here is link http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X24061&key=2


Thanks

Nick D

The key to Immortality is- first living a life worth remembering”

[WGore 0]

I've been in the sport for nearly 43 years and have lost more friends in plane crashes than skydiving accidents. Some of them not skydiving related. The loss of life in some of those was needless, PILOT ERROR. One was from hot dogging and another was a combination of poor maintenance and green pilot. Those 2 crashes alone took out 22 people that should be alive today. Unfortunately both aircraft never got high enough for a parachute to open even if they could have gotten out.
An engine failure on takeoff is probably the worst thing that can happen and the most likely thing to kill you. At altitude there might be a chance although not always as evident from some of the problems with big aircraft and severe CG problems.
My heart goes out to the family and friends of those affected. It leaves a big hole in the DZs affected, I know only to well.

GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

[stratostar 5]

rapper4mpi

Quote

Opening a door and jumping out, depending on the aircraft and situation can often make the situation worse....

Yes this is why I listed the C-205 Celina Oh.

phoenixlpr Why is that so?

Quote

See above, and as others have said changing the CG & drag from an open door.

Bill_K Your welcome, but I posted this because I see/hear people think it's just a matter of "getting out". I knew each and every person on 85 Hotel (beech 18 Hawaii) And I remember the news reports of the loadstar in WA because it made the sadness and greif of 85 return like a ton of bricks, some hard lessons we carry with us always, while other have to learn it the hard way.

councilman24

Hopefully we will hear 3 first hand accounts.

Quote

Amen !

DanG

Getting out without the pilot's permission may improve your odds while at the same time screwing everyone else on the plane.

Quote

So very true, let's hope none of us have to be in that tight spot and have to make that choice.

hongkongluna Very good of you to read the reports my man, however there are other things besides just "crashed on TO" these are the "links of the chain" in each event.

The Taft crash, we no longer over load D-18's with 15 people (unless your in SW OH when they still flew 18's)

Loadstall, if your lucky you get thrown out the door before impact, same as the Hawaii 18, but the loadstars had a reputation, hint the name loadstall.

C-208 Jekinsburg Ga, sugar in the tanks, tells me lack of a preflight mixed with a hot TO, not sure on the hot TO.

Totter Perris Ca., some major fuel issues there as well as the pilot.

Beech 18 Hinckley Ill. using an engine that was not stored right for some 18 years and then hung by a non rated A&P and it was not over hauled or any other real servicing before use ie rotten rubber lines and seals. Some people say the guilty A&P is the one who sold the engine and hung it, regardless it came from Sw, Oh.

KA West Point Va. weight limit exceeded again this is why we don't over load or fly with the CG out of ballance. Not really fair to the preacher who was sitting on his front porch when the airplane fell on him was it.

KA Lake Point Ut, we can chalk that one to IRF pilot flying VFR and making very poor choices. (ferry flight)

KA Marine City Mi., high speed stall during turn on the inside wing after a buzz job of the dz. This is a good reason to NOT fly with pilots who think it's cool to do hot TO's and buzz jobs or zero G's on climbout.

C-182 Grain Valley MO, I don't why they didn't get out, it could be the pilot said to stay put? I know I would have asked more then once to be let out.

C-205 Holmstead Fl., again poor pilot performance, while we do have some very good drivers hauling us around, we also have the bottom of the barrel rookies who are out to make a name for them selfs while they build time in hopes of getting on hauling cargo or airline op's in a turbine or jet one day. (NOT saying this pilot was like that, just pointing out facts)


C-205 Celina Oh. rookie pilot, first day on the job and DZO forgot to keep track of the check out flight time and the 3 loads flown before the flight ran out of fuel on T.O. The rookie pilots job was made harder by the 3 who got out by incressing drag and putting more aft CG into a AC that was already heavy in the aft CG. Remember the pilots job on a loss of power as with this flight is to get the nose down and build up or maintain airspeed. Oh BTW the 3 who got out, you can clearly see their dead bodys laying next the the pancaked AC in the accident photos, no one got a deployed canopy and they landed no more then 5 feet away from the AC.

it seems like most of the crashes were from low enough altitudes that there would be nothing you can do except ride it in and hope.

Quote

and

what am i missing in terms of what i can do to "break the chain"***


It starts before you ever climb into an AC for jump op's, you should take a flying lesson and learn how to do a real pre-flight, so you know some of what to look out for in the AC maintaince. Also refuse to fly with those who don't hold the legal documents to do what they are doing or ride with and encourge hotdog pilots , don't support crooked DZO's and AC operators, learn how to spot them. Learn how to load the AC so it is with in CG and NEVER be scared to ask a pilot if he needs to fuel.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[grimmie 173]

The caravan that crashed had a hard shell two piece door that fit while the jump door was installed.
I flew in that same plane to Belize in 2005 with Geoff Farrington and Dave Kaiser at the helm. It had 2 bench seats for the 4 passengers.
My rig was under my seat but I doubt we could have gotten out in an emergency situation that was rapidly deteriorating...
I don't know what configuration they were flying it in but I would imagine the hard shell was on for the weather.
This just sucks...

[WGore 0]

C-208 Jekinsburg Ga, sugar in the tanks, tells me lack of a preflight mixed with a hot TO, not sure on the hot TO.

Just curious about the sugar, I didn't see that in the NTSB report on Skydiver Drivers site. If the plane was refueled after the preflight that could account for the water and other contraminants. From what I understand the fuel filter was clogged and the AC was operated on the bypass which allowed the water and crud to get to the engine.
The fact remains that the pilot was green and instead of trying to land in the field he crashed in he tried to make it back to the airport resulting in the stall that killed all on board. I didn't see the crash site but from a friend that was one of the first to get there the field was plenty big to land in.

GUNFIRE, The sound of Freedom!

[stratostar 5]

Yes from what I understand the hard shell was on (based on reports) this would add a lot to getting out for sure, as would your rig being under your seat.

Bungee Wallace, anyone remember his story? I only remember small parts, like a rig in the plane that was found near his body, both were 1/2 mile from AC impact??? (I think)

If anyone reading don't get it, hire you a pilot willing to do dives & spins and do it twice, once with your rig off so you can try and get it on and make your way to the door & a second time with your rig on, & see how hard it is to do for yourself.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[grimmie 173]

We mooned Bungee as he took off from Perris to fly home. It was after the turkey twenty ways about 15 years ago..
His low wing collided with a high wing on approach to land. Here was a world class skydiver that couldn't get his rig out of the gear bag and on in time. The crash killed all involved...

[stratostar 5]

Quote

Just curious about the sugar, I didn't see that in the NTSB report on Skydiver Drivers site.

I was going on memory, don't know why I was thinking that (it stood out in my mind) other then knowing fuel issue, but to say there was as you know, much talk about the "pissed off coke dealers" messing with the plane to get even for the so called missing coke or coke money etc. So that is most likely where that memory came from. I typed the reply in a hurry before a meeting, my bad, thanks for pointing that out.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Lucky... 0]

Quote

Yes from what I understand the hard shell was on (based on reports) this would add a lot to getting out for sure, as would your rig being under your seat.

Bungee Wallace, anyone remember his story? I only remember small parts, like a rig in the plane that was found near his body, both were 1/2 mile from AC impact??? (I think)

If anyone reading don't get it, hire you a pilot willing to do dives & spins and do it twice, once with your rig off so you can try and get it on and make your way to the door & a second time with your rig on, & see how hard it is to do for yourself.

Which suorts my assertion that having your rig on is a good idea, glad you agree. I never said it was an automatic.

[MikeForsythe 0]

In response to your post of the other forum It is not about ego, it is about facts. You say we have a “wrong idea of your education and experience” so look at the following likely facts and tell us what your vast education and experience are related to it?

The plane is traveling at 13,500’ in freezing weather over a rugged terrain with an elevation of around 4,500’. The plane is full with people and gear and more than likely no one is wearing a seat belt and at least some of the gear is not secured. It is dark as it is 8:00pm. No one would be sitting by the door because of the freezing wind that is coming in would make it too cold to tolerate.

After making a 360 turn for reasons that are unknown at this time the plane suddenly descends at a rate of 7,000’ feet per minute according to radar data. The plane is now in a dive at 79.2mph. The pilot has no ground references as they are over a remote area. There is instantly, confusion, panic and disorientation. Gear and people are being violently thrown around in the plane in the dark. Because of the above you could be by the door and not even know it or you could now be at the front of the plane.

Oh, by the way, while all of this is happening have you been keeping track of time because the time from initial dive to impact was about 99 seconds. But wait, exiting on impact won’t help much will it, even for you. So lets back up a 1,000 feet and 9 seconds so that you can deploy going out the door……….by the way did you remember to tighten that “pack that was loosely secured” while you were being thrown around in the plane? No, then who won the race to the ground, you are the plane?

Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is!

[stratostar 5]

What you fail to grasp in your original post, that I called you on is the forces at play in a rapid descent that maybe spining or producing high G forces.

Quote

Maybe we should leave our packs on when travelling cross-country, even if loosely.

I invite you to find a pilot willing to take you up and let you try to tighten up your rig and open the door or doors while under a rapid high G descent, once your done with that do it again this time add in a spin, let us know how well it gose and get video too.

Quote

Sad to think that all could have been saved by wearing their chutes.

This statement is what I'm calling bullshit on, and again you fail to grasp the reality of the forces at play in a out of control aircraft.

Quote

you say a worthless propsition and that I should get educated.

For one thing I NEVER said it was "a worthless propsition" See above!

I for one would have voted to leave off the hard door and carry blankets to help with the cold, YES you would have found me in the back next to the lexan door with a rig on ready to bail out (NOT lOOSELY on) and I might not have gone had the OP's insisted to have the hard door on, depending on the terrain we are flying over and the experiance of the pilot, even pilots I trust very well I wear my rig if it is there, ready to bail out.

No hard doors, easier to open only the lexan if your lucky, if thrown into it by G forces good chance your now out, open even a little you might crawl out dispite the G forces. IF YOUR LUCKY

Open even a little, the guy in front of you who has his rig on LOOSLEY an while blocking the door trying to tighten up his straps and wasting time, you can throw out his pilot chute and hold on to him to clear the door.

Quote

I don't need your ego, I don't care how old you are and you probably have a VERY wrong idea of my education/experience.

My ego has nothing to do my statement when pointing out your less then informed statements and while I have no transcript on your education/experiance in front of me, I do have your post to guild me and they speak large volumes as to your clear lack of understanding as to what happends to occupants of an out of control aircraft and the odds of getting out of an open door let alone one or maybe two that are closed. With my age I can back up my statements with the deaths of many of our friends over the years because I already lived it and you are the type of person I'm talking about who don't seem to have all available infomation on this and why this thread was posted, now you can take it all personal if you wish, or you can get informed based on facts and a large pile of bodies, not your wishful thinking before you find your ass pinned to the side wall or roof wishing you could crawl to the friken closed door(s) or out an open door one day.

I will give you, the the fact that you are thinking about a plan is a step in the right direction.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[billvon 2,379]

Both of you cut it out. No personal attacks, period. I don't care how important the subject is to you.

[marks2065 0]

ive been on 1 otter stall on exit on a 22 way - 22 ready to exit just waiting for the count and the otter stalled and dropped to the left this pinned me and the 3 behind me to the back wall and ceiling until the plane recovered which was only a few seconds we still got out and finished the dive - but this made me think about how i couldn't move until the plane recovered - my left shoulder was in the upper back corner of the door, my head was against the bar bent to my right shoulder, and my right hand was out the door and i couldn't get out - i can't even imagine what it would be like in a full stall with the plane falling backwards and into the people that let go on the outside or what i have heard from others about stalls they have been in - a couple freinds experienced a casa stall that pinned a few to the ceiling from exit to 4000 feet - they had bumps bruises and broken bones - i'm very sorry to hear about those in washington and i hope for the best for the freinds and family's but the attitude of the caravan would have made it impossible to get out even if they were ready to jump and the door was open imho - imagine 9 jumpers in gear pinned to the back wall then ad seats and a full door the ones closest to the door wouldn't be able to move or get to the door to open it - the best defense for this situation is to not be in it - always question the pilot, dzo, and mechanics about everthing watch what they do and learn about planes may save your life or someone elses -