Radio instruction - can you tell them to cut away?

[diverdriver 5]

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If a student's still under canopy, and they're in a situation that clearly calls for a cutaway, then it is the instructors responsibility to instruct the student to cutaway.

You base that on which regulation or course material?

I think he might be talking of a "moral responsibility" to help the student through out their jump experience. If the radio JM thinks the student should cutaway then there might be a moral obligation to do something to wake them up in a stressful situation. Whatever you think is apropriate it needs to be decided before they are handed a radio as to what they can and can not say to a student. It is seriously situational and I'm not saying I'm right on the matter for having told someone to cutaway on the radio. But given the same circumstances again I feel I would do it again. It is definitely best to train the student to think they will receive no help from the radio guy regarding emergency procedures. The instruction should cover canopy skills so that the operator doesn't have to say anything. But we know that doesn't always happen just the way we want. It's a debate that I don't think will ever end. Like RSLs and AADs. You are going to have people on both sides of the arguement.

Chris Schindler

[billvon 2,395]

>If a student's still under canopy, and they're in a situation that
> clearly calls for a cutaway, then it is the instructors responsibility to
> instruct the student to cutaway.

Nonsense. I tell my students at the beginning of every course that their safety is 100% their own responsibility, and I mean it. I'm going to try to help them the best I can, but when the shit hits the fan it's just them up there. Radios can fail; people can misunderstand instructions. I've decided that it is safer overall for them to know that they will _not_ get told to cut away from a malfunction.

>All I have a problem with is the idea that some instructor wouldn't
> instruct a student to cutaway for the sole reason that their ass may
> be on the line.

As distasteful as it is, this is now a consideration. Certainly not the only one, but one nonetheless. Skydivers sue other skydivers. It's not unreasonable for an instructor to choose to do something that allows him to keep his job and his home.

[drenaline 0]

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I tell my students at the beginning of every course that their safety is 100% their own responsibility, and I mean it. I'm going to try to help them the best I can, but when the shit hits the fan it's just them up there.

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they will _not_ get told to cut away from a malfunction.

Thats the same thing my instructor told me. We are closer to the canopy so we should know what we see because we are supposed to have had a good ground school (no student is in the plane if the instructor thinks or knows that the student does not know his stuff). I think the only time he will tell a student to cut away is in a extreme situation, something like a 2 out downplane and student hesitating, but I dunno am just guessing on this one.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[drenaline 0]

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Oh, and he claims he said that students name before the 'cutaway' command, but I swear I never heard it

Thats why its dangerous to tell the student to cut away. In my students radio days I couldnt hear the instructions and even less the names that the instructor was calling.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[NtheSeaOrSky 0]

Yeah that was my point....all I heard was 'cutaway'......I knew I had a good canopy and I wasn't choppin'.......but I can easily imagine a scenario with a less than perfect radio or a shaky student...well you get the point.

Life is not fair and there are no guarantees...

[Skyrose7 0]

I was taught that the radio is an extra, a treat. Of course, all students expect it to work, but I think if a student has a malfunction, that is what the training was for-to be able to identify the problem and perform emergency procedures. I have, however, seen my dzo tell a students to cutaway. I think it is a different story for different situations. I would just hope no student expects the radio person to tell them how to save their own life.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The mind is like a parachute--it works better when it is open. JUMP.
MaryRose

[quatorze 1]

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In class we teach them to look upand check your parachute we tell them to say to them self Is it there. Is it square or rectangle. Is it controllable. I know it's not much but thats the best we could come up with if anyone has a better way please reply.

We teach the same thing but it is the 3 S's: Square, Steerable, and Stable. Some Instructors throw in a 4th S: Slider, make sure it is down.

I'm not afriad of dying, I'm afraid of never really living- Erin Engle

[quatorze 1]

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It is definitely best to train the student to think they will receive no help from the radio guy regarding emergency procedures.

Driver, I have to agree with you, but I would like to add that a student should be taught FJC well enough that the radio is not really a tool but more of a luxury. I watched a first jump Static line student stand up a landing with a radio that the batteries had failed after the radio check. No one knew why he was not listening to the voice commands of the JM on the ground, but land safely he did. If instructors take the time to teach FJC the way it is meant to be taught, the radio will soon be seen as a luxury item and not the crutch that it was become for complacent intsrtuctors.

I'm not afriad of dying, I'm afraid of never really living- Erin Engle

[diverdriver 5]

I agree with you too about the FJC and what you should train into a student. But now we are talking about two different things. What you tell a student in the FJC and subsequent training and what you might actually do as a radio operator. Just because I might reserve it as an option, it doesn't mean I will tell a student it is a possibility.

Chris

[Cajones 0]

We teach the student canopy controll, emergencies, etc... After the student knows everything they need to know to land safely, we then introduce the radio. The radio is not introduced until afterwards for a very simple reason.
I have found if a student is told about the radio beforehand, they tend to adopt an additude of "Okay, whatever - this guy is telling me how to land this parachute, but I know I'll just listen to the radio guy and do what he says." Students who believe they must fly and land unassisted get the additude "I better pay attention - I have to save my own life." After they take it all in, and are tested on the principles, they are so relieved to hear about the radio. Albeit too late to NOT pay attention to canopy emergencies/control.
I have instructed students to cutaway on the radio on three different occassions. One of those experiences has reinforced my belief in avoiding the "don't" instructional method. The use of the word "don't" is hard to remove from your teaching vocabulary. Only after I told a student "don't" cutaway (he was now too low to cutaway, and I wanted him to keep what he had) did the student finally chop. It was estimated he did so at around 500 feet. His RSL deployed his reserve, and he landed his reserve (fully inflated, brakes still set) on the tarmac next to the terminal. The reserve opened facing towards the tarmac, or his spinning mal would've put him on top of the terminal. He was very lucky. Since that incident, I have instructed two more to "execute their emergency procedures," including talking them through the procedures that were drilled into their heads during ground school: "Arch, look red (right at some DZ's), grab red, look silver (left at some DZ's), pull red, grab silver, pull silver, arch..." It has worked both times. I can't say what the student reaction would have been had I not given radio instruction. I hope they would have done it, anyhow.

The laws of physics are strictly enforced.

[RichM 0]

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The mind is like a parachute--it works better when it is open.

Nice phrase, thanks, if you don't mind I'll use it in my teaching. I guess there is no ethical right or wrong in this discussion and it will be a judgemental call by the instructor. There are no blacks and whites but a myriad shades of grey, until it winds up in court at least

Blue skies

Rich M

[caseyusa 0]

Yeah, all your radio teaching ideas sound familiar...

All I know is that Emergency Procedures were so drilled into my brain, that I was good-to-go in case of an emergency on my first AFF, or any of them for that matter. The instructor grilled my class on mal photo's, their names, and the response (which was CUTAWAY for most everything other than a few line twists). As a first timer- I was in a dating relationship with the idea of a mal... Really, it was so hammered in that it had me expecting a mal.

Not to the point where my hand is on the silver right at the POP! of canopy, but so that the first and only thing SURGING through my brain at that moment was a whole brained, visual inspection of my canopy, followed by brakes/controllability.

Looking back, this was a good thing for me- personally- not gonna assume any wisdom past my few jumps, bowing to the wise sages
It was good for me though... I wasn't thinking about the birdies, nearbye ocean, rush of the wind.. i was 110% canopy/safety checkin' right off the bat. They said it'd take milliseconds to size up the system when you looked up- and they were right...

Had line twists on my AFF1.. only like 2 of them. And as my eyes tracked down from my perfect canopy, i score the twists, and grabbed them lines- kicked like a schoolboy... wala! it straightened out, and controllability scored an 'A'. I headed toward the DZ under the guidance of Mr Radio (he got me on course then let me fly)- and of course we were taught that it was a luxury...

Radio's like indoor-plumbing for a toilet... Damn it feels nice but you gotta learn to #$%* in the woods.

---
** Blue Skies, Yellow Mustard. **
It's like a farmer, out-standing in his field.

[Luna 0]

Very interesting discussion. How about a first-hand student's point of view? As I've posted in this forum already, I had a spinning mal resulting in a cutaway on my 3rd AFF jump. So here's what happened to me, and why, and what I think about it:

At my DZ, most often, the instructor who jumps with you will be the one ultimately who talks you in. However, obviously, they can't be at the radio when you open. Therefore, they use other people to take the radio until they get on the ground. About once so far for me it has been another instructor. Most of the time, it is the person working the school manifest. So, all they basically tell you is to check you canopy, do a controllability check, and then they might give you a few directional instructions before the instructor gets the radio and talks you the rest of the way in. I'm not going to debate whether this is right or wrong, it is just how it is. So, first thing is that they don't immediately know which canopy is you, especially if there are a couple of other AFF's on the load. Second thing is, we aren't just talking 2000 feet away, students remember deploy at 5500 feet. So they really can't see what is going on. Thirdly, they don't have much expertise anyway. I was in a spinning mal, but how do they know that I just wasn't having a fun time with the turns (at least until it started to streamer...). I am pretty sure that I had already cutaway before my instructor was even on the ground. So, they had very valid reasons for NOT giving me instructions on what to do with that canopy.

Now, that said in hindsight, what I felt at the time, and what I wanted to hear, was entirely different than how I feel about it now. While my spin was getting faster, he was on the radio telling me to check my canopy. I was thinking "Can't you see that it isn't any good?? Please tell me what to do!!" At one point I even remember yelling out "Help!" for what it was worth. Made me feel better I guess. So yeah, at the time I really would have liked to have had someone telling me what to do. But, when they didn't, and the spin got totally out of control, I realized that I had to save my own ass. So I did what I had to do. That is what the training is for!! Any student who wouldn't save themselves in a situation like that has some serious problems and probably should re-evaluate whether they should be up there! And trust me, they probably will anyway. I know I did, and I did the right thing. The thing is, at some point you stop being on the radio and you have to do it on your own. That is still what the training is about. But there is no training later on that prepares you more for it. So you should be able to do it, on your own, from the very first jump. And more than anything else, doing it on your own can really help to build your confidence at a time when you end up sorely lacking it (referring to a cutaway very early in progression). One of the only things that has gotten me through and gotten me back up is to know that I did it. I saved myself. Where I thought I'd always panic in an emergency, I pulled through. Being able to believe in your own abilities is crucial in skydiving.

One other note on this that will help some of you who do radio: After it happened, I really needed someone to acknowledge it had happened and to tell me it was okay, and that I did the right thing. Instead, I had very little radio input at all after it happened. A very terse "Stay in your holding area," followed by landing instructions that didn't start until I was under 1000 and already entering my pattern on my own (Yay me!). The longer they didn't give me what I needed to hear, the more I freaked out. It would have made me feel much better just to hear that.

Sorry to ramble on this topic, but I thought that this point of view was pretty relevant to the discussion.

I'm walking a marathon to raise money for the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society. Click Here for more information!

[caseyusa 0]

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first thing is that they don't immediately know which canopy is you, especially if there are a couple of other AFF's on the load.

Do all the students have the same colored canopies? Our radio log notes the students name and the canopy colors.

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Thirdly, they don't have much expertise anyway

Thats too bad. I know it was reassuring to me to know the radio guy was a pro and put trust into waiting to hear that voice say flare!! AFF1 standup landing was the result of a competant instructor on the radio.

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I realized that I had to save my own ass. So I did what I had to do. That is what the training is for!!

Right on! Hey great post. Best of luck to your DZ's radio folks.. man looks like a revamp is in order. Glad you're walking. Just sorry you had to buy beer on jump 3!!!

---
** Blue Skies, Yellow Mustard. **
It's like a farmer, out-standing in his field.

[Luna 0]

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first thing is that they don't immediately know which canopy is you, especially if there are a couple of other AFF's on the load.

Do all the students have the same colored canopies? Our radio log notes the students name and the canopy colors.

Actually, there are different colored canopies, but there is no radio log and they mostly don't know what color you have. Keep in mind, I'm not at a "corporate" type DZ, it is a club, and it is small.

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Thirdly, they don't have much expertise anyway

Thats too bad. I know it was reassuring to me to know the radio guy was a pro and put trust into waiting to hear that voice say flare!! AFF1 standup landing was the result of a competant instructor on the radio.

As I said, by the time you are flying your pattern and landing, your instructor has taken over the radio, so at that point I do have someone who is very knowledgeable talking me in and telling me when to flare. It's just from opening until my instructor gets on the ground that I don't.

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Just sorry you had to buy beer on jump 3!!!

Don't forget about the bottle for my rigger too! At least I didn't have to pay for a re-pack, or buy a new freebag or anything! There are a few advantages to having a cutaway while still a student.

I'm walking a marathon to raise money for the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society. Click Here for more information!

[Michele 1]

Throwing in my .02....

When I was spinning around, watching the ground, realizing that there was no way this canopy was gonna land me safely, if a voice came into my ear, I think I would have hesitated, trying to figure out what the voice was saying.

Another thought...when you're that overloaded with adrenaline, you may NOT be able to hear anything, even if the radios work well.

And still another thought...my JM saw me, and thought I was just pushing my canopy...until I cut away. He didn't realize anything was wrong until he saw my main sailing away.

And I am the one hanging under that canopy. Me. No one else. The closest anyone else was to me at that point was farrrrrr away, and my JM wasn't even on the ground yet. I am the only one who can make the correct decision - square, steerable, stable...No? Kay, red then silver. Yes? Fly it on home. My JM did a great job getting down in a hurry and talking to me and calming me down once he saw my canopy change colors...but it took a little bit before he got in my ear.

I don't think students should EVER rely on someone telling them to cut away. It is our responsibility to check that canopy out and make sure it works right. If the JM can safely get down and safely give us further instruction in the case of an emergency, fine, but students MUST NEVER rely on someone telling them to cut away - some mals aren't obvious on the ground, and some may be misconstrued as fun under canopy...

Like I said, just my .02, based on cutaway #1 on AFF #3...

Ciels-
Michele

~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek
While our hearts lie bleeding?~

[jumpy 0]

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Another thought...when you're that overloaded with adrenaline, you may NOT be able to hear anything, even if the radios work well.

This is very true...apparently hearing is THE first of your sences to leave you in a moment of high stress or adrenaline rush. If you do not train someone to function without a radio there going to turn out all the worse skydiver because of it in my opinion.

[drenaline 0]

something just came to mind...

What will you do if the student faints under a mal? and how will you know when he faints? (should I start a new thread with this?)

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[billvon 2,395]

>What will you do if the student faints under a mal? and how will you
> know when he faints?

Locking up is far more common than fainting. Fortunately, all my students who locked up did so right after opening under a good parachute, so they just flew away and landed in brakes.

If they lock up under a mal? Yell at them; tell them to look up and respond to what they see. If they don't respond, well, I hope they understood the risk they were taking by jumping. I tell all my students they can get killed doing this (although that makes me unpopular with DZO's sometimes) because they can.

[cgross 1]

I am new to the sport, and don't have any expert opinions. I do know that in training they make it perfectly clear that the radio is a tool, not a life saving device. A student should know when to cut, and should not fear making a life saving decision.
But, I also agree that if the radio works the instructor upon noticing a student will die or be injured, is obligated to try and save their life. Some thing simple like, "John, if you can not land the chute cut it away now" To prevent them from making their own cut away decision at 300feet.

[pchapman 261]

[Old thread but the topic is right.]

I've been at a DZ where instructors do give a cutaway command, although the emphasis all through the static line course is that the student makes the decision.

WHEN NOT TO CUT AWAY

A related issue is when not to cut away. If a student has a mal but doesn't deal with it and gets low, at some point one will want to make sure the student doesn't cut away. This can be an issue both at DZs that give and don't give cutaway commands. No more calls for a cutaway if they're spiralling through 500 ft under a lineover.

My DZO seems to have a point that at such a time, it's pretty much a case of having to lie to the student. The idea is to reassure the student, have them prepare for the landing roll, that sort of thing, as if it were all very routine. Nothing is said about any emergency, that might invite a chop at 200 ft when they finally notice the ground approaching quickly.

TERMINOLOGY

Instructors at the DZ are careful about terminology when using the radio. Usually the instructor would say something like "Use your Emergency Handle!" (as it is a one handle system), being very clear of course about which student is being addressed. The instructor might instead say, especially if the student isn't responding, "Look, Grab, Pull!" because those are the words the students learned while practicing the motions during the first jump course.

Instructors never use those words for anything else, to avoid confusion. Many many years ago, an instructor must have told a student something like "pull your right toggle, come on, pull, pull!". The student only registered the "pull!" idea and cutaway, thankfully high enough for the reserve to open.

GETTING FOOLED EVEN WITH CAREFUL USE OF TERMINOLOGY

Recently an instructor was dealing with a student who was not particularly responsive to the radio. While normally students are addressed by "jumper #1" etc., we have their names recorded as a backup. In this case instructor tried to get the student to respond by using his name: "Luke, Luke!"

You can guess what that sounds like. From under a good canopy, the student chopped. Again, they were plenty high enough to get under a good reserve.

It's hard to anticipate every eventuality...

[jbrasher 0]

My .02

Early 80's round parachutes S/L 3 on a pass.
SOS 3rd student on the pass had a really nice MaeWest, slow spin.

Radio operator instructed student(s) (each individually as they opened) to look up and check canopy.
3rd student didn't seem to take any action and the radio operator expressed his distress through his voice that the student should check they're canopy.

The 2nd student (on the same frequency) picked up the stress and even though he'd checked his canopy and thought it was good decided to cut-away (at 300')

I and another JM where running to where we figured the 3rd student was going to land when we dam near got kicked in the head by the 2nd student opening on his reserve

The 3rd student (small women short arms) later reported (after she finally cutaway) that she had pulled the handle and nothing happened and was mighty upset with all the yelling on the radio and finally in exasperation pulled the handle again

all the students were fine and the JM's eventually recovered.

Another story:
a large bodied student in a rig that was a little tight for him got open but the JM (very experienced and very capable) on the radio couldn't figure out why he wouldn't respond to radio signals.
The school owner said tell him to cutaway.
The JM figured that he had a canopy over his head and he'd wait.
Eventually the student started to sluggishly respond to signals and finally landed.

He had started slipping out the back of the rig
His leg straps where under his knees and he was looking out this side of his main lift webs and when the radio told him to pull the yellow handles and steer he started pulling.
The steering lines came out and out and out because he was pulling the handles on the reserve canopy; the main steering handles where out of reach and sight.
Had he cutaway we would have been wondering how the hell he had committed suicide that way

If you can't figure out how/or weren't trained to use the equipment maybe you should do a tandem.

You're jump/you're responsibility.

Red, White and Blue Skies,

John T. Brasher D-5166

[crotalus01 0]

For what its worth in my FJC two points were drilled into me: if you get away from the instructors and get below 2000' youre on your own (no friends below 2 grand), and once you deploy it is YOUR responsibility to do a controlability check and decide to keep what you have or go to plan B.

As for me and my house, we will serve the LORD...

[Zing 2]

"If the DZO is more concerned about his own liability than my life, I'd think about heading to a different dropzone."

Suck it up, cupcake. Every DZ owner is more concerned about legal liability than your life.
Remember that waiver you signed? Did you read it?

Zing Lurks

[peckerhead 0]

Mr Hicks!

I hate to break this to you man but your parachute did not open!

Were talking mega malfunction dude!

It's on your belly!!!!