pchapman 261 #1 December 21, 2011 The 2010 Aerodyne Icon manual shows a method of folding the reserve bridle in a triangular shape, something they never had in their manuals in the past. The first part of the bridle is folded in a V fashion as it long had been. The part ontop of the kicker plate is no longer side to side but triangular around the closing loop. I'm wondering if everyone is following that, or if Aerodyne allows one to fold the bridle in the previous more conventional manner? Confusing the issue is that on their website, there's a single Icon manual, now revised Aug. 2011, but it shows Skyhook only. It explicitly states what sections are for the Skyhook version -- but there are no other sections for no skyhook. One can take the Skyhook sections and guess what might be done without -- in which case the last bit of bridle would be folded side to side directly under the PC. Aerodyne just presents one manual, and doesn't seem to say anything like, 'follow the manual that was current when the rig was built'. Technically Aerodyne is all screwed up -- if one is an FAA rigger who has to legally follow the manual -- it would mean one cannot pack any Icon without a Skyhook... So, realistically, what are people doing for Icon's without skyhooks? a) the old way - last part of bridle side to side on the bottom of the kicker flap, partially under the PC b) the 2010 way - last part of bridle triangularly c) Skyhook way - last part of bridle side to side directly under the PC I'll probably go back to (a) as it is a common industry technique. Another issue is that the triangular folding method will twist the bridle -- half a turn every fold. The text says nothing about alternating folds over and under to prevent this, or any other method to prevent it. The photos don't seem to show any way to prevent it either, although they are too indistinct to be sure. What do you do about that? Seems pretty silly to put something like 3 full twists in the bridle. Aerodyne's instructions also seem to assume no extra reserve lines will be left over once one has put the stows in the elastic tubes. Sometimes one does get an extra fold of lines left. It seems reasonable to just leave the extra stow loose in the pouch like any other system, but their instructions omit this possibility (again leading to one of those 'technically impossible to follow instructions' situations.) Yes I did contact Aerodyne. Emailed them nearly a week ago and heard nothing. There could be a reasonable excuse, busy staff, wonky spam filters, whatever. While I'll try again, I'll ask here too. I'm not an FAA rigger so don't legally have to follow the manual. But these sorts of screwups piss me off because they put FAA riggers into situations where they can't legally pack a rig, or have to do something stupid when packing them. FAA rules don't allow for "common sense" or "industry standards". Correct me if I'm overlooking anything here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BobMoore 0 #2 December 21, 2011 I have an Icon and will most likely use the manual I got with the rig many years ago. What do you think the problem is with the triangular method? Putting 3 full twists in the bridle doesn't seem to be any kind of a problem to me. The reserve should follow the pilot chute out with or without some twists in the bridle."For you see, an airplane is an airplane. A landing area is a landing area. But a dropzone... a dropzone is the people." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #3 December 22, 2011 "Quote... I'm not an FAA rigger so don't legally have to follow the manual. ... " ................................................................... I am not sure where you developed that attiutde, but if CSPA catches you packing significantly different - from the manual - CSPA can pull your CSPA rigger rating. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #4 December 22, 2011 Pchapman, You are over-thinking the problem. Yes, I always hated that (Parachutes de France) triangular bridle-routing. It was always a pain to count the number of up-folds and down-folds to minimize twists in the (Atom) bridle. Not surprising since Aerodyne hired some of Parachutes de France's designers. I cannot remember the dates, but I vaguely remember an Aerodyne manual offering the alternative of S-folding one third of the bridle, then S-folding a second third of the bridle, then S-folding a third version of the bridle. In the end, bulk distribution was the same, but North Americans could understand the process. Hah! Hah! Bottom line, your pack jobs must resemble one version of the Icon manual ... either the manual issued with the rig, or the latest version of the manual. Hint: if your Icon does not have a Skyhook, you can safely ignore the "Skyhook only" version of the manual. KISS Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #5 December 22, 2011 Quote I am not sure where you developed that attiutde, but if CSPA catches you packing significantly different - from the manual - CSPA can pull your CSPA rigger rating. I'm sure they can, but good luck to them. When I got my rating, I never saw any paperwork saying I had to do anything any particular way. No federal law, nothing I could see in the PIMs. But of course we are all expected to be conscientious in our work -- So if I deviate it'll be for a reason I can defend as an acceptable industry practice, or something following the intent of the manufacturer even if the words are wrong. Edit: Hey Rob, after we debated the "follow the rules!" issue where we both took hard lines with it, now we're back to "what is reasonable for a rigger to do". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencebuster 7 #6 December 22, 2011 As one who is not a rigger but working toward the rating, isn't the answer that you pack IAW the manufacturer's instructions? What do I know, anyway?Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208 AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #7 December 23, 2011 CSPA's rigging system will remain voluntary as long as we keep the fatality rate low. Trust me, Transport Canada would prefer to stay out of the business of herding cats ... er herding skydivers. The real issue is how you would explain some novel packing method - in court??? The simplest way to avoid fatalities is to pack in an approved manner. The simplest way to defend yourself - in court - is to show that your work matches a manual. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parafredo 0 #8 December 23, 2011 For me, like riggerrob said, follow the manufacturer rules and manuals and that's it. I even caught a non certificated reserve parachute inside a Mirage and I refused to pack it. I called Mirage to see if they would authorise such thing and they just told me NO,NO. CSPA rigger is still packing it , I still wounder why ? If something happenned or a fatality, who will back-up for this ? Not Mirage, Not CSPA and then, rigger is f.. Simple as that. CSPA should not be over FAA certification rules at all for equipment, exept for canadian harnesses and parachutes manufacturer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 558 #9 December 28, 2011 "Quote... I even caught a non certificated reserve parachute inside a Mirage and I refused to pack it. I called Mirage to see if they would authorise such thing and they just told me NO,NO. ... " .................................................................... Who built that reserve canopy? FAA TSO standards apply in: Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and most of the European Union. I can count on one hand the number of Canadian companies - that made reserves - but they all quit building reserves years - or decades ago: Canadian Aerosports. M. S. Enterprises, Niagara Parachutes, Parafab, etc. M.S. and (early) Niagara Parachutes reserves were pretty much copies of Strong Lopos, so no great shame there. It is even rumoured that Mike Szova (sp?) bought patterns and sewing machines from Ted Strong. Except that all those reserves are more than 20 years old and round ... two reasons that most young, Canadian riggers don't want to touch them. Only Parafab and C.A.I. built square reserves, but only in small numbers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 261 #10 January 4, 2012 Ok, I got the word back from Aerodyne. Initial emails from them did somehow get spam filtered but things got sorted after the holiday break. It looks like one does have the option whether to use the triangular folding or not. I guess with the triangular option, one would add some arguably insignificant twists in the bridle. From their email, my emphasis: QuoteIf you are packing an older Icon without Skyhook D.O.M. March 2011 & earlier or an Icon Sport: The triangle shape fold around the grommet, or the side to side fold is a approved method. If using the side to side method. Please be sure the folds are place under the reserve spring pilot chute, as like the triangle fold. This will insure that a proper launching of Reserve pilot chute then bridal occurs. If you are packing a Icon Pro: you would use the same bridle folding method with or without a Skyhook installed. The only thing that changes is if there was no Skyhook, you would not use a hesitator loop. Where there is a Skyhook, their 2010 manual showed up and down folds for the last part of the bridle, but their Aug 2011 manual revises that to side to side. A minor detail. They also now know that the older Icon manual was accidentally removed from the web site; they'll put it back. Not sure about misprint issues in the new manual though. The Aug '11 manual didn't distinguish the old Icon from Icon Sport from Icon Pro, so that remains to be made clearer once they update things. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birdsparadise 0 #11 March 11, 2012 Thank you for this post. I have just been given an Icon without skyhook to pack and had the exact same questions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #12 March 12, 2012 For what it's worth, I talked to Aerodyne a few weeks ago and let them know about the missing info and they said they're gonna edit and put it in the manual."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thutch 0 #13 February 15, 2014 I just downloaded the manual - problem still exists. There is an addendum which I downloaded too - shows how to pack a Skyhook-equipped rig WITHOUT a Skyhook. Pretty damn incomplete too - doesn't show how to stow the bridle (neither before closing flap 2A, nor after). Still nothing to show how to pack a rig that is not equipped for the Skyhook?!? WAKE UP! Your manual(s) are nearly as useless as Parachute Systems'! Juiceless! :-( Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,903 #14 February 15, 2014 thutchI just downloaded the manual - problem still exists. There is an addendum which I downloaded too - shows how to pack a Skyhook-equipped rig WITHOUT a Skyhook. Pretty damn incomplete too - doesn't show how to stow the bridle (neither before closing flap 2A, nor after). Still nothing to show how to pack a rig that is not equipped for the Skyhook?!? WAKE UP! Your manual(s) are nearly as useless as Parachute Systems'! Juiceless! :-( Have you sent this message to Aerodyne as well? I've never packed an Icon, but I'd like this addressed before I have to do one. Actually not really a problem for me. My customers usually ask me for recommendations. Javelins and Vectors both have good clear manuals. That's what I'll suggest if they want Skyhook equipped containers.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #15 February 16, 2014 thutchI just downloaded the manual - problem still exists. There is an addendum which I downloaded too - shows how to pack a Skyhook-equipped rig WITHOUT a Skyhook. Pretty damn incomplete too - doesn't show how to stow the bridle (neither before closing flap 2A, nor after). Still nothing to show how to pack a rig that is not equipped for the Skyhook?!? WAKE UP! Your manual(s) are nearly as useless as Parachute Systems'! Juiceless! :-( You need the older version of the manual that shows the bridle folding. http://www.parachutemanuals.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=39&func=fileinfo&id=4 I pointed it out a couple years ago and I guess they haven't changed it."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
woppyvac 0 #16 February 20, 2014 I just went to the Aerodyne's website and opened up the manual PDF. Where is this triangular folding you are referencing?Woot Woot! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #17 February 20, 2014 woppyvac I just went to the Aerodyne's website and opened up the manual PDF. Where is this triangular folding you are referencing? I didn't say anything about triangle folding. "I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
