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Monsterchute

What makes you proud of the USA?

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I was just curious...

Does anyone have stats involving murder rates across the world?

My question is this. How many people died to achieve your inpaticular freedoms?

For instance:

At what cost of life did your ancestors have to endure so that YOU enjoy the simple things,the good things, the basic freedoms that we ALL take for granted?

Or do you not have those freedoms?

It may just open your eyes.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

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>I don't consider a 14 or 16 year old who used an AK-47 to murder folks a child anymore.

Hmm. If Hussein didn't consider the children he was holding to really be children (let's say they were guilty of poisoning someone) would that make Hussein's actions less offensive? Or can only the US (or only you) declare a child not a child for purposes of imprisoning them?

>Your statement that we are killing civilians is misleading.

We fired into a crowd of protesters, killing 13 and wounding 70. The "we were just defending ourselves" argument can be applied to just about anyone we kill over there, but as it happens more often it will get weaker and weaker. Killing people to stay in power? Same story, different day - at least to the Iraqis who lose their children to our actions.

>Democracy, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, and such are
>what we hold up as signs of our moral superiority.

Well, we're not allowing free elections there. When we do, what if they elect a theocracy as retalitation against Hussein's form of government? Will we really allow Mullahs to run the country if that's what the people want? And if not, who do we put in their place? I thinkt that will severely challenge our moral superiority.

>Those things, freeing kids from prison,.....

I will be more impressed when we release the kids _we_ are holding in violation of our own constitution.

>Many are drawing parallels between Vietnam and Iraq as far as occupation/rebuilding goes.

I don't think that's true, and that's both a good and a bad thing. Good because we 'won' the war. 'Won' is in quotes because we didn't accomplish our stated objectives, and we're still fighting, but there isn't an organized opposition any more. Bad because whatever bad happens there will be 100% our fault, and a lot of bad will happen there.

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Well just a side comment. America certainly has problems, we aren't perfect by ANY standard.....but perhaps the world would have been a better place if say Russia was the "only" super power.

Kind of the "who died and made you God" feeling that many in the world seem to have about America. The truth is that doesn't matter, only time will change it - maybe the French will become the big dog. But until that time it is what it is.

just thought.....not a fight
Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

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Far more aid pours out of this country than most other places in the world...


Its in german. The US spends 0.09% of its GNP for development aid Denmark spends 0.97%. The OECD countries spend an average of 0.22%....


Nice try but I can see through the spin... The statement you replied to said "far MORE aid pours out" Not a bigger percentage.

According to the source that you linked. In 2002:
http://www.oecd.org/pdf/M00018000/M00018516.pdf And the percentages you supplied:

The US spending .09% of its GDP spent $9,344,790,000 USD.
Denmark spent .97% or ONLY $1,669,370,000 USD.

So actually the US Spent 5.6 times the amount Denmark did on aid.

All the OCED countries, at .22% spent $57,826,120,000 on Aid. There are 30 countries in the OCED. We funded 16% of the Aid. Funny that. 100/30=3.3% I believe we pay MORE than our fair share.

If you have in issue with this. Try looking up the stats on the number of hours worked per week by Europeans compare this to Americans. Then look up Vacation/Holidays taken by Americans -vs- Europeans.

Then, come complain to us about how much we spend and what % of your GDP you spend WHEN, and ONLY WHEN, Europeans work as many hours and as many days as we do. :P

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Update!

>Those things, freeing kids from prison,.....

No doubt you were referring to a story like this one, from the AFP:

---------------------------
Jailed Iraqi children run free as marines roll into Baghdad suburbs

BAGHDAD (AFP) Apr 08, 2003
More than 100 children held in a prison celebrated their freedom Tuesday as US marines rolled into northeast Baghdad amid chaotic scenes which saw civilians loot weapons from an army compound, a US officer said.
---------------------------

Unfortunately, it wasn't really a jail. From the NYT:

----------------------------
A 'Liberated' Orphanage Searches for Its Children
July 6, 2003

Al Rahma, an orphanage in northern Baghdad, was run by the state under Saddam Hussein, but is now run by clerics from the Shiite Muslim town of Najaf. They took control of the institution four days after American forces liberated Baghdad in April.

The orphanage had been home to 107 girls and boys whose parents were killed or imprisoned, or were unable to care for them. As the Americans advanced on Baghdad, they mistook the orphanage for a jail or prison and released all the children who were there.

A few employees of Al Rahma have returned to work there and have searched the streets for the children who left, in efforts to bring them back. Today 23 boys and 11 girls live at the orphanage. But because conditions at Al Rahma were bad under Saddam Hussein's regime, according to employees, some children are reluctant to return, fearing that even under the new management they will be treated badly.

In addition, the war brought looters, who stole beds and other furniture from the institution's meager stocks. Today, rooms are nearly bare, with empty bed frames, crumbling walls and broken windows.
-----------------------------------

So we may have the honor of being the only country that's holding children (sorry, evil scheming terrorists under the age of 15) in secret military prisons.

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Oh, nice. It was a horrible thing freeing those kids from the "Orphanage."

Hmm. Obviously they were locked in. Their parents were killed or imprisoned by Saddam's regime. Conditions were so horrible most would not want to return.

Sounds like a prison to me. You can call it an orphanage if you want. ;)

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>Hmm. Obviously they were locked in. Their parents were killed or
> imprisoned by Saddam's regime. Conditions were so horrible most
> would not want to return.

So if we had orphanages where children were locked in, and whose parents have been imprisoned by the US government, we are as bad as he is? Especially if they come from horrible family conditions?

I hope we're not so desperate for some justification for this war that we're starting to crow about releasing children from orphanages so they can live on the street.

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>Hmm. Obviously they were locked in. Their parents were killed or
> imprisoned by Saddam's regime. Conditions were so horrible most
> would not want to return.

So if we had orphanages where children were locked in, and whose parents have been imprisoned by the US government, we are as bad as he is?


Last time I checked... WE DON'T

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Especially if they come from horrible family conditions?

I hope we're not so desperate for some justification for this war that we're starting to crow about releasing children from orphanages so they can live on the street.



Are you trying to justify Saddam's Policy of dealing with his political enemies? Are you saying people prosecuted for crossing the Saddam's regime are bad parents unfit to care for their children?

I am not justifying a war. No where in this statement did I even come close to attempting to justify an entire war on this Orphanage. I am justifying the freeing of the kids from the "Orphanage."

And, what about the rest of their familys, Aunts, Uncles, Grandparents? How do you know that the kids are living on the street?

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>Last time I checked... WE DON'T

Uh, yeah, we do. Young children in orphanages are not allowed to leave. We lock them inside. We also imprison orphan's parents. In fact, if you get put in jail for a long time, your children often become wards of the state.

>Are you trying to justify Saddam's Policy of dealing with his political
> enemies?

Not at all. He was a very evil man. That there were orphanages in Iraq, even bad ones, is not the best proof of this - especially since we have them too.

There's a growing desire by some to come up with a list of reasons the invasion of Iraq was a really good thing, since we can't find Hussein, his sons, an Iraqi Al Qaeda organization or any WMD's - originally listed as the objectives of the war. At best we can say we deposed him and he is largely (not completely, but largely) out of power. If we start trying to use the "liberation" of an orphanage as a reason we invaded, it makes us look desperate.

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:)
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>I don't consider a 14 or 16 year old who used an AK-47 to murder folks a child anymore.

Hmm. If Hussein didn't consider the children he was holding to really be children (let's say they were guilty of poisoning someone) would that make Hussein's actions less offensive? Or can only the US (or only you) declare a child not a child for purposes of imprisoning them?



Comparing the younger murderers in Gitmo to the children freed in Iraq is ridiculous. Come to think of it, comparing Gitmo to an Iraqi prison is equally ridiculous. I'm amazed you attempt to do so.

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>Your statement that we are killing civilians is misleading.

We fired into a crowd of protesters, killing 13 and wounding 70. The "we were just defending ourselves" argument can be applied to just about anyone we kill over there, but as it happens more often it will get weaker and weaker. Killing people to stay in power? Same story, different day - at least to the Iraqis who lose their children to our actions.



The argument you deride in the above isn't really an acceptable one for firing on protestors. However, not being personally cognizant of all of the facts in the matter and sincerely doubting that you are either, I choose not to play armchair quarterback/commander in this case.

We are killing a lot of people over there. A lot of insurgents. The insurgents also killed a lot of schoolchildren the other day as well. People are going to keep dying over there, and we're going to mitigate that through active policing and hunting down these insurgents.

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>Democracy, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, and such are
>what we hold up as signs of our moral superiority.

Well, we're not allowing free elections there. When we do, what if they elect a theocracy as retalitation against Hussein's form of government? Will we really allow Mullahs to run the country if that's what the people want? And if not, who do we put in their place? I thinkt that will severely challenge our moral superiority.



I don't think they will elect a theocracy at all. Iran is their neighbor (I know they hate each other) and the effects of theocracy on Iran are fairly obvious. They are wanting the mullahs out and in a bad way.

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>Those things, freeing kids from prison,.....

I will be more impressed when we release the kids _we_ are holding in violation of our own constitution.



In violation of the US Constitution, eh? The Constitution applies to enemy combatants who have never set foot on US soil? Odd that you think so. I have problems with the Gitmo situation, but they are NOT constitutional. Exactly how many Gitmo prisoners are under 18 anyway? :ph34r:

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>Many are drawing parallels between Vietnam and Iraq as far as occupation/rebuilding goes.

I don't think that's true, and that's both a good and a bad thing. Good because we 'won' the war. 'Won' is in quotes because we didn't accomplish our stated objectives, and we're still fighting, but there isn't an organized opposition any more. Bad because whatever bad happens there will be 100% our fault, and a lot of bad will happen there.



100% our fault? Not the fault of insurgents? We twisted their arm, made them pull the pin on the grenade, and toss it at schoolchildren? I don't think so.

Iraq is an interesting foreign policy scenario right now. I think that there are a lot of interesting possibilities that exist. Hopefully we will stabilize the nation, improve its infrastructure, and open some trade up and improve the lot of the average Iraqi person.
;)
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

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>Last time I checked... WE DON'T

Uh, yeah, we do. Young children in orphanages are not allowed to leave. We lock them inside. We also imprison orphan's parents. In fact, if you get put in jail for a long time, your children often become wards of the state.



There is a big difference between a foster home and an orphanage. My aunt/uncle are foster parents. Mother has "troubles" and don't even know about dad. But, the kids are just as free to come and go as any kid is at home.

And what US state still has orphanages? I thought they all closed down years and years ago. Can you tell me where there is an operational one?

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>Comparing the younger murderers in Gitmo to the children freed in
> Iraq is ridiculous. Come to think of it, comparing Gitmo to an Iraqi
> prison is equally ridiculous. I'm amazed you attempt to do so.

As I mentioned below, that was actually an orphanage we "freed" them from. Conversely, I am amazed you can actually post something that says that 13 year olds aren't really children. Will they not really be human next?

>We are killing a lot of people over there. A lot of insurgents. The
> insurgents also killed a lot of schoolchildren the other day as well.
> People are going to keep dying over there, and we're going to
> mitigate that through active policing and hunting down these
> insurgents.

Well, we will try. Somehow I doubt we'll succeed. There has been war there for centuries. Hussein was remarkably successful in putting down the fighting through some extremely draconian measures; we won't use the same level of violence to try to quell the uprisings. I hope, anyway.

>In violation of the US Constitution, eh? The Constitution applies to
> enemy combatants who have never set foot on US soil?

Ah, so they're enemy combatants! So would you argue that the Geneva Convention should apply?

In any case, there are US citizens in US military custody; and yes, I think the constitution applies to them.

>100% our fault? Not the fault of insurgents? We twisted their arm,
> made them pull the pin on the grenade, and toss it at
> schoolchildren? I don't think so.

We eliminated the government that formerly kept the peace by killing thousands of people in that government. So yes, we now have a responsibility to the Iraqis to keep the peace. If you claim the right to violently remove a government you feel is wrong, you have a responsibility to the survivors to keep the peace.

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In violation of the US Constitution, eh? The Constitution applies to enemy combatants who have never set foot on US soil? Odd that you think so. I have problems with the Gitmo situation, but they are NOT constitutional.



Where does the it say in the constitution that it only applies to US citizens? The Bill of Rights is an enumeration of specific rights that are held by "the people" and is not an all inclusive list. The declaration of independence states "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

All people, not those who happened to be geographically born within our borders. these documents are an outline of basic human rights. It is pure hypocrisy to say that they only apply to some people when it was clearly intended that ALL people should have these rights as a result of birth, not just of birth in a certain location.

Please tell me a better way to spread the ideals of the US of fairness and equality for all mankind then to uphold those ideals when dealing with foreign nationals?

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>And what US state still has orphanages? I thought they all closed
> down years and years ago. Can you tell me where there is an
> operational one?

From the local phone book:
RANCHO DE SUS NINOS
CHULA VISTA, CA 91909
(619) 661-9232

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>And what US state still has orphanages? I thought they all closed
> down years and years ago. Can you tell me where there is an
> operational one?

From the local phone book:
RANCHO DE SUS NINOS
CHULA VISTA, CA 91909
(619) 661-9232


Try another one....
Yes, it is an orphanage BUT:
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This home functions largely as a day care center for the local community. They provide breakfast and lunch for 150 children each day. Additionally they are associated with the nearby Colegio La Roca.

http://genesisexpeditions.org/casactc005.htm

And, from what I am reading about it... Its actually in Mexico. It just has offices in California.

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Nice try but I can see through the spin... The statement you replied to said "far MORE aid pours out" Not a bigger percentage.



Ok, i can agree to the concerns about the amount of aid in $. So Amazon is right in what she wrote.

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The US spending .09% of its GDP spent $9,344,790,000 USD.
Denmark spent .97% or ONLY $1,669,370,000 USD.



The link i provided refers to the GNP (or Bruttosozialprodukt), it also mentions data from 1997. On the right side of the first page in the link you can see the amount in Billion (Mrd.) Dollars for 1997. In that year the US only gave 4.2 times as much as Denmark. Denmark has 5.3 Million inhabitants, the US has 280 Million.

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All the OCED countries, at .22% spent $57,826,120,000 on Aid. There are 30 countries in the OCED. We funded 16% of the Aid. Funny that. 100/30=3.3% I believe we pay MORE than our fair share.



Can you calculate that if you look at the EU as a single country?;)

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If you have in issue with this. Try looking up the stats on the number of hours worked per week by Europeans compare this to Americans. Then look up Vacation/Holidays taken by Americans -vs- Europeans.



I would never do that, because it is highly inacrurate, productivity is much higher in countries where labor is more expensive. In Germany labor is very expensive. Still the cost of labor per produced item is the, or almost the lowest in the world.

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Then, come complain to us about how much we spend and what % of your GDP you spend WHEN, and ONLY WHEN, Europeans work as many hours and as many days as we do. :P



I don't think i want to work as many hours as americans do, nor do i want to not enjoy my vacation as long as i do.:)
Its basically up to you what you think is a good comparison to the amount you give. I think number of inhabitants or GNP is a good comparison. GNP is what the UN chose, and i think the majority of people would agree with that or the comparison to inhabitants.

The purpose of the reply to amazon was just to make clear that the US is only leading in the amount of provided aid, but thats no big achievment given the size of the USA.

I am not trying to bash the US, but sometimes Americans are proud of stuff that is not really such a big achievment or hast negative sides that they don't (want to) see and that could outweigh the benefits.

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I was just curious...

Does anyone have stats involving murder rates across the world?

My question is this. How many people died to achieve your inpaticular freedoms?

For instance:

At what cost of life did your ancestors have to endure so that YOU enjoy the simple things,the good things, the basic freedoms that we ALL take for granted?

Or do you not have those freedoms?

It may just open your eyes.



My eyes are open, thats why i asked for events in the past 50 years or so. One event could be the supply of west Berlin during the blockade of the Soviets. There is more and i am interested in the views of americans about these events, people etc. that make you proud. But if i think what you have achieved and are proud of are not even above average for 1st world countries, i will mention it.

What happend in Europe bevor 1945 is part of the reason why germans opose war and are suspicious when someone starts a war. Most Germans also know the price of liberation.
The price for the liberation of germany was payed on serveral sides and the price was higher than anything prior in history. The most important thing about WWII is to prevent something like this to ever happen again and the 1st world needs to work together and talk to achieve this.

Did i answer what you asked for? I am not sure.:|

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Why is it the role of the USA to ensure that other countries pay wages. I think most of the companies you mention...are under scrutiny which is good.. and the abuses are just by being brought to light.... and thereby affected. I would venture that in many of those places... the pay and working conditions on a whole are BETTER than in other companies in those same countries because they are not monitored by a company that does not want the bad Public relations that will affect it negatively.

It is not USA role to ensure wages in other countries, but it can treat human work in their factories the same as in western countries.
So teenage kids that work in that factories don't have to work that early and they will have time to "learn to fish"


The men in those countries view women as chattel.. one step above slaves. Whose fault is that??????????????

The cause is their uneducation (amongst many other things, like religious, traditional...) And they don't have time nor money for education cos they must work hard to survive.
Maybe the western companies that have factories there could show them how is right to treat human, instead acting opposite. But that would cost them money.

I dont need to ask my politicians why we have not signed the Kyoto accords... its simple.. they are in the pockets of the big business who put them in power.. and they dont WANT those changes that would be good globally. The hypocrisy rests square on the shoulders of the Tri-Lateralists.. not only american.. but european and japanese as well.

Then we are agreed that large corporation are ruling the USA/world?
Are you free then? And hypocrisy stays only on USA and Australia shoulders, cos they aren't signed the Kyoto protocol. EU and Japan did.


The International Criminal Court is being used as a political tool of certain groups.. pure and simple... that have axes to grind... if there was any form of justice there.... perhaps.

USA don't want to join ICC cos then it would not be easy to start some other a "war for freedom", and collateral damage would become war crime... But having other countries liable to that court, well, it is a great weapon. It is not good for USA but it is good for others...yeah right.

Blue Sky
Igor


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Can you calculate that if you look at the EU as a single country?;)

Sure, if I can add Canada and Mexico to the US total. Europe is a continent not a country.
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If you have in issue with this. Try looking up the stats on the number of hours worked per week by Europeans compare this to Americans. Then look up Vacation/Holidays taken by Americans -vs- Europeans.

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I would never do that, because it is highly inacrurate, productivity is much higher in countries where labor is more expensive. In Germany labor is very expensive. Still the cost of labor per produced item is the, or almost the lowest in the world.

Productivity... Production per man hour. There are only 3 countries higher than the US. Sweeden, Korea, and Tiawan.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/prod4.t01.htm
..as for unit labor cost in mfg. We are quite high.. but Germany is far from the lowest.
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/prod4.t10.htm

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I don't think i want to work as many hours as americans do, nor do i want to not enjoy my vacation as long as i do.:)



Exactly my point. We work hard for what we have. We want what we earn. We pay much less in taxes than Europeans typically do. The Gov't has less cash to give away. Its just frustrating to sit and listen to other people tell us.. Since you are bigger, you need to do this and that and oh wait, you can't do this because you are bigger.

2 examples: LIBERIA. "Don't go to Iraq." "Go to Liberia" Here I have an excellent example in the form of a political cartoon.

inducebraintraumasmall.jpg

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As I mentioned below, that was actually an orphanage we "freed" them from. Conversely, I am amazed you can actually post something that says that 13 year olds aren't really children. Will they not really be human next?



Tell the next thirteen year old that shoots at you that he's only a child. Perhaps it will stop the bullet. The Guantanamo situation is pretty piss poor in many respects. Do I have a better solution? Nope.

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Well, we will try. Somehow I doubt we'll succeed. There has been war there for centuries. Hussein was remarkably successful in putting down the fighting through some extremely draconian measures; we won't use the same level of violence to try to quell the uprisings. I hope, anyway.



Draconian. Nice word. I like that word.

I think the war against the Persians did more to quell the internal violence in Iraq, though the draconian measures of Saddam Hussein were also a large player.

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Ah, so they're enemy combatants! So would you argue that the Geneva Convention should apply?

In any case, there are US citizens in US military custody; and yes, I think the constitution applies to them.



Nope. There neither carried ID cards nor wore uniforms. The US citizens being detained without trial, access to a lawyer, etc. are a disgrace to the nation. They have been robbed of their rights and it disgusts me.


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We eliminated the government that formerly kept the peace by killing thousands of people in that government. So yes, we now have a responsibility to the Iraqis to keep the peace. If you claim the right to violently remove a government you feel is wrong, you have a responsibility to the survivors to keep the peace.



We are doing just that. The peace is not interrupted by US forces. It is interrupted by insurgents/terrorists.

:)
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

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Foreign nationals in general? Sure. Foreign nationals who shoot at US forces - I don't think so; they get the modified version. 'Tis the folks in Gitmo who have no connetion to either the Taliban or Al Qaeda (reportedly) that are really getting screwed. I think it was a good short term solution but a long term one has yet to be presented that is acceptable to anyone. Perhaps trial in an Afghani court or something. I really don't have a solution off of the top of my head.
:)
Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

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Foreign nationals in general? Sure. Foreign nationals who shoot at US forces - I don't think so; they get the modified version.



Agreed, someone who is captured while battling our troops is one thing. But there are a ton of people being held, including US citizens, under suspicion based on "intelligence" (which has proven to be really freakin' reliable so far) without being charged, without being allowed an attorney, and without due process.

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