Michele 1 #76 July 4, 2003 On this day, the 4th of July, the day our country was born 227 years ago... On this day, I think of all of the people who had a dream, who left homes, family, country, and security to come to a new land. They came knowing nothing about it, and, dreaming as large as they could, and with far more courage than is commonly understood, they founded a country. A country which stands, proud, as the leader in the world. A country which knows itself to be good, despite what others think it. A country which allows that same courage, that same dreaming power, that same futuresight, to change the world; time and again, those who dreamed, those who had courage, changed the world, made it better. A country that, when called, sends it's sons and daughters out into the rest of the world, whether it be an invasion of a tyrannical leader, a mighty earthquake, or a plague. A country that will spend it's wealth - money, food, people - and share it's resources with countries in need. Because this country understands that all countries are really people, and people are the true resources of this planet - and in lessening the need, again the ability to create, ability to dream, to have courage, to look forward and to change lives, is fostered. For those who have given their lives, their hopes and dreams, their courage and commitment, I am in debt. For all those currently serving my country, I say "thank you". For those who have served, I say again "thank you". And to those dissenters, to those detractors, to those who, time and again demonstrate my country's ideals, I say "thank you". Today is the 4th of July. Tomorrow, the 5th, I will also have these same feelings. As I will every day of my life. Ciels- Michele ~Do Angels keep the dreams we seek While our hearts lie bleeding?~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jraf 0 #77 July 5, 2003 QuoteQuoteQuoteAnd you see this asa good thing where, possessions and ownership have risen above people and community I certainly do. There are few countries in the world where I as a woman can own my own home, drive a 2003 truck, own a couple large boats, take vacations where ever I see fit in the world, afford to take up a very expensive sport and buy a lot of new equipment to support that habit. Sure those are materialistic things but I also served in the armed forces of this country for 8 years. I have traveled to about 40 countries in my life and have seen how many of those countries allow women the advantages I have been blessed within this one. I worked VERY HARD for a good education that allowed me to get a very good job, how many women in Africa or the middle east or Asia or even in Europe can attain that and have anything more than being a slave to their circumstances. No its not about the materialistic things in life for me, but I would venture I am far happier than MOST women on this planet in the opportunities I was given as part of that. IT seems to me that a goodly number of people on this planet seek those same advantages. Then again there are those who would drag the entire world kicking and screaming back into the squalor and darkness of the 7th century. Against that I would fight anyone anytime and anyplace to avoid. Amazon Amen Amazon. Very well said and thank you for the service for this GRET COUNTRY. I know quite a few countries in this world where woman own houses, boats and have an education. Owning a 2003 car is no big deal, unless you live in Cambodia. Being too closed minded to see that we are one among many is very bad. Tolerance is a trait of the wise. Seing how we are perceived is important. Understanding our brothers from abroad is essential. Criticism does not mean we are being attacked, so don't get so upset. Our country is as full of bull shit as ney other. Be tolerant, learn and try to contribute to the education of our nation instead of feeling good about yourself.jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #78 July 5, 2003 QuoteOur country is as full of bull shit as ney other. Be tolerant, learn and try to contribute to the education of our nation instead of feeling good about yourself. So is it now politically incorrect to feel good about ourselves? New rule: Don't say anything good about the US because it might offend another country or some of our self loathing countrymen. Also, be tolerant unless it is someone expressing views based on religion. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Monsterchute 0 #79 July 5, 2003 Quote A country which stands, proud, as the leader in the world. So who voted for the US as the country to lead the world? Isn't it more like who ever has the most power/money rules, not very democratic. And if you get criticised politicians of your country call for sanctions. I am sorry, thats not my understanding of democracy and democracy is one of the things the US likes to stand for. Quote A country that, when called, sends it's sons and daughters out into the rest of the world, whether it be an invasion of a tyrannical leader, a mighty earthquake, or a plague. Well and in numerous cases also when it is not called for. http://www.bowlingforcolumbine.com/library/wonderful/index.php I do realise that the above link may be inacurate in some ways. Lets just say only half of it is true and not start an endless discussion of its content. Thanks for the reply to my question. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
w4p2 0 #80 July 5, 2003 It is interesting to see, that most of you consider freedom as something you could be proud of. Having lived once upon a time almost five years in states, I find it just the opposite, for me USA was one of the most restricted countries that I have ever lived at, and still is. You have plenty of reasons to be proud of your country and heritage.... but freedom.... I do not think so. Freedom is the walk in woods without NO TRESPASSING signs. Freedom is a salmon on your line with out salmonsticker. Freedom is a goose on your rifle sight without NPS chasing your ass. Freedom is your camp where ever you want to put it up as long as it does not cause harm to the property. Freedom is naked kids running on beaches or lawn without social service arresting you for trumped up charges made by your neighbors. Freedom is a walk in late night town without having to pack a piece. Freedom is equal changes for education and medical care irrigardless of your wealth or race. Freedom is the right to speak your mind, even if politically not correct. Freedom is many things, but unfortunately I never found it in USA. Great country never the less, happy 227:th. Kind Regards: JL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jraf 0 #81 July 5, 2003 What does politically incorect mean? Where do you see me saying only bad things about my country? I see both sides of the coin because I have a mind of my own and I use it. I could not care less for political correctness - it's for the masses not for me. If you wish to keep a closed mind and live your life drinking bud life in front of Sunday Football TV, just go ahead. Average is not necessarily bad, just average. I will lead my life and have my oppinions.jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #82 July 5, 2003 QuoteI see both sides of the coin because I have a mind of my own and I use it. So if you're proud of the US you are a slave to the views of the government? The only open minded people are the ones who bash the US and complain about all of its policies. Quote Where do you see me saying only bad things about my country? I've never seen you say anything good. You were correcting someone who was saying why they were proud of the US. QuoteIf you wish to keep a closed mind and live your life drinking bud life in front of Sunday Football TV, just go ahead. Average is not necessarily bad, just average. So I'm average huh? Because I have different opinions than you I have a closed mind? Man, you are so much more enlightened than me. I can barely stand to be in your presence. You are almost glowing! QuoteI will lead my life and have my opinions. Try basing your opinions on reality and you will get a lot more respect. Just having opinions because they are different from the mainstream does not make you enlightened or non-average. Bashing someone elses positive opinion of the US on the 4th of July does not make you open minded. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kinaa 0 #83 July 5, 2003 QuoteA vote is like a rifle: its usefulness depends upon the character of the user T. Roosevelt "I wish very much that the wrong people could be prevented entirely from breeding; and when the evil nature of these people is sufficiently flagrant, this should be done. Criminals should be sterilized and feebleminded persons forbidden to leave offspring behind them...The emphasis should be laid on getting desirable people to breed." T. Roosevelt in "Twisted Eugenics" Sorry I couldn't resist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,116 #84 July 5, 2003 Haven't you ever wished that stupid people and criminals wouldn't breed? I sure have, and I'm, by and large, pretty even-handed. That said, well, people in the US have said stupid things, and done stupid things. But the good things that have been done don't erase the stupid ones, and the stupid ones don't erase the good ones. They all stand on their own. Anyone who focuses on one, and ignores the other, loses more than they gain. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
w4p2 0 #85 July 5, 2003 Sarcasm of wisdom. I should add, that there was a country executing this line of thinking right before WW II. All of us know the results. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kinaa 0 #86 July 5, 2003 True. I was reading Jeremy Rifkin's "Biotech Century" and I was under influence. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jraf 0 #87 July 5, 2003 I live al life of my own. If you are average be gone from my life, I have no time for you. People who can not read should not try to write. Note that I have said many wonderful things about the United States. I love my country, but I never claimed it was the best in the world. It is just the one I love. Other people have other opinions on our country and are entitled to them. I may or may not agree, but I will listen and try to understand.jraf Me Jungleman! Me have large Babalui. Muff #3275 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 3 #88 July 6, 2003 Michele, You have put into words the feelings of, I am sure, many of the people through out this great land. Thank You! SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FallinWoman 1 #89 July 6, 2003 QuoteI am sending a bit of "time for reflection" on this one our most important holidays. I wish you all a wonderful holiday spent with those whom you most love, remembering those who went before us, ensuring us our freedom. This is a most poignant day for me, not born into the loving arms of Ms. Liberty, but having to prove myself adequate through a naturalization test in 1961. I am thankful every day that I draw a breath in this our country, for the blessings that have been bestowed on me because I am privileged to be a part of this country. We are planning a grand fireworks celebration of July 4th at our house this evening, after a wonderful dinner at the home of our friends and neighbors. (Pray that we don't get arrested - fireworks are against the law here in St. Louis County!) I hope you are also celebrating. This is a quote form my mother, written in an e-mail about what happened to the signers of the Declaration of Independence. One of the things that I am amazed by every day is that my mother is more patriotic than I am. She had to fight for her right to be a citizen. I just take that for granted. She came to the USA when she was 5 years old. On the boat ride over she had her first orange. How many of you can remember with complete joy the first orange you ever tasted? That orange will always represent to me the freedom that this country offers. ~Anne I'm a Doll!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #90 July 7, 2003 QuoteI know quite a few countries in this world where woman own houses, boats and have an education. Owning a 2003 car is no big deal, unless you live in Cambodia. Oh I bow to your wonderful knowledge of what womens lives in the world are really like. None of them have any issues whatsoever and can achieve all they can be....Maybe next lifetime you will get to make up for some of the karma of this lifetime. Good luck as a poor woman in Africa with your clitoris removed or as woman in most moslem countries, or as a woman in India whose babies die within the first few months of life, or .. never mind... you just dont get it anyway. When the only women you see are the "hotties" in the clubs, or where ever you go to meet women.... that is not a very good sampling of the billions of women on this planet. I still would venture to say that womens lives are far better here with more opportunities than ANYWHERE else in the world. Amazon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,380 #91 July 7, 2003 >So if you're proud of the US you are a slave to the views of the >government? The only open minded people are the ones who bash > the US and complain about all of its policies. I think the people who bash everything the government does as a matter of course are as closed minded as the people who support everything the government does as a matter of course. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,380 #92 July 7, 2003 > You neglected to mention the children's prisons, mass graves, rape >rooms, and torture chambers (I repeat myself) that we >discovered/stopped the use of via our invasion. You do realize we're now holding children in our _own_ secret military prison, right? >I also doubt we'll kill people en masse and bury them in mass graves > while we are in control as well. This, makes me proud. We will kill a lot more people in Iraq; our own president has asked them to "bring it on" and they are obliging. We are killing civilians; we are shooting protesters. We may bury their bodies invdividually instead of en masse - is that really something we should hold up as proof of our moral superiority? Iraq will be a quagmire that will hold no victories for anyone. We have had some shining moments; Iraq will not end up being one of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumprunner 0 #93 July 7, 2003 QuoteThis question came to my mind lately, since it is a long time ago i was in the US the last time. I would like to know what makes americans so proud of their country? Why are americans a lot more patriotic than most other countries? I would be particularly interested in events you are proud of that happend in the last 50 or so years. PS: This is not meant to be a provocative question, i am aware of a lot of things americans can be proud of. Im proud of the Confederate part of this country, and the effort of so many Southerners to protect states' rights, a concept this country was founded on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #94 July 7, 2003 Hi Bill! Quote You do realize we're now holding children in our _own_ secret military prison, right? We already discussed this somewhere else. I don't consider a 14 or 16 year old who used an AK-47 to murder folks a child anymore. The secret military prison in Guantanamo is troublesome to me in some ways and not so in others. Quote We will kill a lot more people in Iraq; our own president has asked them to "bring it on" and they are obliging. We are killing civilians; we are shooting protesters. We may bury their bodies invdividually instead of en masse - is that really something we should hold up as proof of our moral superiority? We will kill more Iraqi's yes it's true. Your statement that we are killing civilians is misleading. Any civilians we have killed have been accidental deaths that occurred while we were either defending ourselves or fighting guerillas/insurgents/terrorists. Nobody is holding such killing up as a sign of our moral superiority. Democracy, freedom of the press, freedom of speech, and such are what we hold up as signs of our moral superiority. Those things, freeing kids from prison,..... Quote Iraq will be a quagmire that will hold no victories for anyone. We have had some shining moments; Iraq will not end up being one of them. When I shake the magic 8 ball on this issue it gives me the 'unknown' response. It does have the potential, but I do not think it will be the case in the long run. At least I hope so. I think that the chances of such could be mitigated by extremely rapid rebuilding of essential Iraqi infrastructure in conjunction with massive Marshall-plan type investing in the country itself. Using local workers to do the work and paying them adequately. Though we aren't hearing much on this, the little I have heard tells me that this is not proceeding rapidly. It troubles me greatly. Many are drawing parallels between Vietnam and Iraq as far as occupation/rebuilding goes. Though there are some lessons to be learned by doing so, I think the nature of the political situation, demographics, foreign funding of the insurgent/terrorist force, and such makes it a completely different paradigm. Though one worth examining in the abstract. Beers, Vinny Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumprunner 0 #95 July 7, 2003 QuoteOn this day, the 4th of July, the day our country was born 227 years ago... ..and one which died in 1865 when the federal government decided to assume more authority than Constitutionally delegated to it. A country which stands, proud, as the leader in the world. Do you mean a country, or an 'empire' who now thinks its the worlds police force. A country which knows itself to be good, despite what others think it. Exactly what is "good"? High (and unconstitutional) taxes being imposed on the individual? Which furthur serve to slow down a presently recessionary economy? A government that tries to manage every single aspect of your life? A government which encourages socialism? A government which tries to penalize its citizens for being too successful or making what they consider 'too much money'? A country that, when called, sends it's sons and daughters out into the rest of the world, whether it be an invasion of a tyrannical leader, a mighty earthquake, or a plague. Or Vietnam, over 50000 Americans killed in action, more than double that of Vietnamese killed in action, and for what? For some deraganed ideal that the communists were going to swing left and take over the world if S. Vietnam fell to communism. Well, it fell to communism, and they didnt take over the world. And a lot of good soldiers lost their lives in that war. Ciels- Michele In regard to everything I mentioned, the federal government really is influenced to a great deal by the people, it is a government by the people, but not for the people. And who's fault is that? Its the peoples fault. Because the people are the underlying influence on how the government behaves. There will be another civil disturbance in this country, its a time bomb thats ticking away. But it wont be between the states this time, this time it will be much more chaotic. As it almost was in Election 2000. With that being said, I got out of polictical activism a long time ago. I just dont care anymore. I care about sports, and thats where it all ends. Let the communists take over, let the UN take over, throw out the Constitution, go to a socialist system where the working class is enslaved by a welfare population, do what you want, I dont care anymore. Im tired of trying to fight stupidity and I gave up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kinaa 0 #96 July 7, 2003 QuoteGood luck as a poor woman in Africa with your clitoris removed or as woman in most moslem countries, or as a woman in India whose babies die within the first few months of life, or .. never mind... you just dont get it anyway. You mean a poor women that work in China or in [insert name of asian country] for Wal-Mart/Kathie Lee or for [insert company name] , producing hand bags and purses for 0.20 - 0.35$ per our, and have 84 our week, 12 our shifts 7 days per week, that have johns open only in two 15min breaks so management can registrate unproductive time, so they are forced to use plastic bages that are held beneth their working machines (in Gap, Guess, and Old Navy factories - Naomi Klein " No Logo", page 155) or that work in similar condition for Nike...I can write a dozen more... (Source "Company Profiles/Working Conditions: Factories in China Producing Goods for export to USA, Made in China: Behind the Label", Charles Kernaghan, National Labor Committee, march 1998) I don't mean to bash your country, you sure have things to be proud, but whit all that power that you have, doing such a little (for women that you mentioned, cos actually they work for your country), it is shameful. Why you don't ask your politicians why America wont sign Kyoto agreement when your children will be living in this world? And be against the International Criminal Court for war crimes, but forcing european countries to join the same court, at same time asking (forcing them whit economical measures) that same countries to sign agreement whit USA, to not extradite US citizens to that court. What a hypocrisy... If you really think that your country is world benefactor, then you are living in a bubble. (This is not direct reply to you Amazon, but to all that think so.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cptfunky 0 #97 July 7, 2003 people like Dr. Martin Luther King, Janis Joplin, Michael Moore and lots of others. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #98 July 7, 2003 I know for sure that I can not change things thoughout the world.. but I do vote.. and I also vote with my purchasing power... Most of the brands you mention will not be found anywhere in my closet of wardrobe. ( they make stuff for the wee people who are under 6') I do own some Nike batting gloves I use for skydiving.. but its the only NIKE thing I own. Why is it the role of the USA to ensure that other countries pay wages. I think most of the companies you mention...are under scrutiny which is good.. and the abuses are just by being brought to light.... and thereby affected. I would venture that in many of those places... the pay and working conditions on a whole are BETTER than in other companies in those same countries because they are not monitored by a company that does not want the bad Public relations that will affect it negatively. Businesses are going to where they can pay dirt wages... and make maximum profits.. its happening worldwide with the developed nations. It has put a lot of americans out of work here. Most move on to other careers/jobs.. some are lucky enough ot get retraining. I dont need to ask my politicians why we have not signed the Kyoto accords... its simple.. they are in the pockets of the big business who put them in power.. and they dont WANT those changes that would be good globally. The hypocrisy rests square on the shoulders of the Tri-Lateralists.. not only american.. but european and japanese as well. The men in those countries view women as chattel.. one step above slaves. Whose fault is that?????????????? ( If your feminist bells are sounding loudly... DING DING....... YES I plead guilty, but more than a feminist I am a humanist) The International Criminal Court is being used as a political tool of certain groups.. pure and simple... that have axes to grind... if there was any form of justice there.... perhaps. Far more aid pours out of this country than most other places in the world... since you think that is a bad thing.. perhaps we are just wasting our efforts and should just tell everyone to help themselves..as some here would suggest anyway since its not appreciated anyway. But.. when it comes down to it... if things are so bad.. then the people need to make the changes necessary to better themselves... not as a handout.. but hard work. The addage of "Give a person a fish.......and they will eat for a day... teach a person to fish.. and they will eat for a lifetime". Ideally we would solve all the worlds ills for them... uh huh yeah right....I am not that idealistic.. I am a realist. Amazon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheAnvil 0 #99 July 7, 2003 Michael Moore makes you proud of America? Surely you jest.... Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Monsterchute 0 #100 July 7, 2003 Quote Far more aid pours out of this country than most other places in the world... Here are a few number concerning develpment aid. http://www.epd.de/entwicklungspolitik/dwi/dwi99_10.pdf Its in german. The US spends 0.09% of its GNP for development aid Denmark spends 0.97%. The OECD countries spend an average of 0.22% for development, that means you are below average out of these countries: http://www.oecd.org/EN/countrylist/0,,EN-countrylist-0-nodirectorate-no-no-159-0,00.html Where do you have your information from, or are you comparing the US with countries like somalia when you speak of "most other places in the world"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
