Becareful what you ask for...you might get it!

[AggieDave 6]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,93029,00.html

Quote

The people of Puerto Rico are facing some unanticipated consequences from a victory they won in 2001.

For several years, Puerto Rican protesters demanded that the U.S. Navy leave the island of Vieques (search). Groups staged violent protests outside the main gate of "Camp Garcia," saying they were sick and tired of the live-fire bombing exercises.

The violence resulted in the gates of the base being torn down. Several U.S. troops and police dogs were injured in the demonstrations.

In response to the years of protest, former President Clinton agreed to stop Navy exercises there. Congress and President Bush ratified the deal and live-fire exercises were halted last May. But with its mission muzzled after 60 years, the Navy has decided to pull out of Puerto Rico completely.

That means the largest employer on the island, the Roosevelt Roads Naval Station (search), is now slated for closure that could come as early as October.

Island workers are accusing the Navy of economic revenge.

"You dedicate all your talents, all your efforts. You're loyal to your employer, this case being the U.S. Navy, and what do you get in return? A kick in the you-know-what," said Ana Angelet of the Puerto Rican chapter of the American Federation of Government Employees.

The 2004 defense-spending bill that is working its way through Congress has a provision in it to close the base down officially. With the loss of the base, Puerto Rico will also lose nearly $300 million the military pumped into it each year.

Puerto Ricans say the Navy is just mad because they won, and forced the live exercises to end. The Navy does not hide its disappointment. Navy officials say the location was long considered the best overall spot for exercises and stopping the live-fire training cost American military lives.

Sen. James Inhofe, R-Okla., a member of the Armed Services Committee (search), said Puerto Rico's politicians are to blame for the financial misfortune since they backed the protests.

"I just think it's a shame that the people, the ones that are suffering, are the people of Puerto Rico because it was the politicians that did it to them," Inhofe said.

Puerto Rican Gov. Sila Calderon, who backed the booting of the Navy from Vieques, made no apologies for a decision that could crush the Puerto Rican economy.

"We are partners with the U.S., but definitely the rights of the people of Vieques are not for sale or for any other purpose," Calderon said.

She also refused to discuss the possibility that the base closure could become law.

"This decision is not final at this point. The bill is not approved, and our aim as the commonwealth government is to have the decision postponed for 2005, when all the bases are going to be evaluated," she said.

The U.S. government may decide to hold onto the more than 8,000 acres, rather than returning it to the people of Puerto Rico.

"Those that don't want that to happen say well, 'Let's just give back to the Puerto Rican politicians,' and reward them with an asset that's worth $1.7 billion for kicking us off that range that has cost American lives. That's just not going to happen," Inhofe said.

The sense on all sides is that Congress will give the green light to shut down "Rosie Roads" officially. Bush could sign the bill into law as early as next month.

Fox News' Orlando Salinas contributed to this report.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

As one of my high school lit teachers always said: "All choices have consequences." They wanted the base gone... now COPE.

[diverdriver 5]

Oh great. Another welfare state. We want the money but don't want to do anything for it. No firing range? No base. Deal with it. That firing range has been there for 60 years. Now all of sudden it's a problem?

Always remember.....Who butters your bread?

[pd190 0]

Ya know, I trained and worked out of that base for quite some time. It's a perfect place when a change of Camp Swampy is in order.

What pisses me off, is first they want us gone, Oh...wait you really are leaving, no..no... you can't go, we won't get anymore federal funding and the locals won't make any money from the sailors and Marines that train here...wait you can't go.....

Okay, now you aren't going, okay, we'll run around naked in the live ordance impact zones so that you won't drop any more bombs, and we'll cost the government millions of dollars in wasted training time and extra deployed Marines for security at the gates. then when you send them, we'll beat them with rocks and sticks because we know they won't shoot us, and then we'll destroy government property. Yeah, and then when the shelling starts agian, we'll run naked through the impact zone, only we'll be drunk this time.

You know what I say, they made their own bed, so FUCK them! (sorry for the vent, just my opinion.)

[Push 0]

Next we're going to start hearing countries complaining that the US is not giving them money for no reason. I may not always agree with everything the Yanks do, but goddam it man, asking a country to just give you billions of dollars? Did that base have any purpose except for the firing range?

-- Toggle Whippin' Yahoo
Skydiving is easy. All you have to do is relax while plummetting at 120 mph from 10,000' with nothing but some nylon and webbing to save you.

[CrazyIvan 0]

WISH GRANTED!!!...now deal with it.

__________________________________________
Blue Skies and May the Force be with you.

[Guest]

Good riddance. Grant PR full independence as well. Holdover from 19th Century anyway.

Of course, they'll immediately petition us for economic aid.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[TitaniumLegs 8]

The same stuff happened in Europe when the cold war ended, the wall came down and the "Go home American" protesters finally got their way. There were towns all over Germany whose primary employer was the US Army or Air Force. When the bases were closed, many Germans demanded that the US government pay their unemployment benefits.

(>o|-<

If you don't believe me, ask me.

[geanky 0]

all i can say is that it is a very complicated issue and most decisions made by politicians are not the best...take clinton for example

also what you mostly see or read about "the people of PR" in this situations are the radicals...just like in most advertised news

learn to fly in 3d

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

Quote

Did that base have any purpose except for the firing range?

As far as I know, it was a regular training base that just had an impact rage. Same as most bases in the US. This is the one that I grew up near http://www.mccoy.army.mil/ I always thought the jets dropping bombs, the howitzers firing, the flares at night, and watching formations of C-130's dumping guys out in with their T-10's from the front yard was cool. We could hear the impacts at home, and it rattled windows sometimes. I don't know that anyone ever had a serious problem though. And the Cities around the base just love it. It pumps lots of money into the local economy.

Ft Mccoy is unique in its Wisconsin winter and hilly forest areas... Viques was unique in the fact that it was an island base with deep water around it.

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

Quote

also what you mostly see or read about "the people of PR" in this situations are the radicals...just like in most advertised news

Doesn't it just suck when the "Vocal Minority" actually get their way at the expense of everyone else?

BUT if I am not mistaken, there was a PR-wide referendum on the issue. The base lost out in the vote. So, a majority of the Puerto Ricans wanted it gone, so they can all suffer the consequences

[happythoughts 0]

This reminds me of the Phillipines. Clark AFB and Subic Bay. Lots of protests for the US to leave.

Mt. Pinatuba blows up and puts 3 feet of ash on the runways at Clark. It was too much trouble to clean up the ash, so it was. We quit spending the $100 million there also.

[geanky 0]

ALL referendums in PR never put things in BLACK AND WHITE...there are always things you want mixed up with things you don't want

learn to fly in 3d

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

Quote

ALL referendums in PR never put things in BLACK AND WHITE...there are always things you want mixed up with things you don't want

I disagree. This referendum was only for the purpose of the navy/bombing issue. No other issues were on the ballot. 70% Viques residents chose the following option. It is very clear and NOT confusing. (translated to English.)

Quote

“Immediate and permanent ceasing of the military exercises and
bombings by the Navy on Vieques. The ouster of the Navy from Vieques, the cleaning and return of the land of Vieques to its people. ”

Now that seems pretty "BLACK AND WHITE" to me. The residents of Viques chose their own fate, so now THEY need to deal with it.

Below is a link to the Bill that was approved by the PR legislature that created the referendum. http://www.ceepur.net/consulta2001/act.34.pdf

Edit to add: The bill mandates the exact wording and placement of the text on the ballot so that it is clear and easy to understand.

[geanky 0]

yes but please look at the political backings of each option...not everything is crystal clear to the outside eye

I know this for a fact because i lived with PR politics for 23 yrs of my life and still live it from a distance because all my relatives are there

learn to fly in 3d

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

Quote

yes but please look at the political backings of each option...not everything is crystal clear to the outside eye

Help me to understand... Please explain how the political backings of the ballot options subtract from their grammatical clarity? "The ouster of the Navy from Vieques, the cleaning and return of the land of Vieques to its people." is very politically motivated text, but it is also VERY clear in its meaning.

***I know this for a fact because i lived with PR politics for 23 yrs of my life and still live it from a distance because all my relatives are there

So are you making a generalization based on past experience... and applying it to this situation? Did your relatives honestly believe that, "The ouster of the Navy from Vieques, the cleaning and return of the land of Vieques to its people." meant that the US would keep sending money anyway?

[geanky 0]

no it's that

if one option is backed by party A and the other by party B (no matter how grammatically correct / clear they are)...the mayority of people will back their political party of choice instead of making the "best" choice

most people are fanatics when it comes to politics...that is in the case of PR

learn to fly in 3d

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

Well, the choice to back the party in this case has a consequence of the loss of millions of $$$ for Viques. The choice was still made by the people of Viques, therefore the responsibility for the consequences lies ONLY on the people of Viques.

Peer pressure is not a valid excuse... stupid mistake maybe... Reason that we should pay millions for nothing, HELL NO.

Do you think that we should be held responsible for people that cannot think and act for themselves?

[D22369 0]

Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


“Immediate and permanent ceasing of the military exercises and
bombings by the Navy on Vieques. The ouster of the Navy from Vieques, the cleaning and return of the land of Vieques to its people


ok, someone call Jeff Foxworthy and get him to send em all signs that say "STUPID" and hang them around their necks......you do not bite the hand that feeds you and expect to continue to be fed......
It apparently wasnt thought through very well......

In this day and age, I find it amusing when someone, or some-people get what they really want...and then find out it aint so great after all.

Roy

They say I suffer from insanity.... But I actually enjoy it.

[geanky 0]

you are not understanding me

i am not saying that if the navy leaves the military / government should keep pouring money into the PRican economy...this makes no sense what so ever...doesn't matter what country / situation we are talking about

all i am saying is that the decision that was established by the referendum was more political than anything else

and by the way it is VIEQUES....not Viques

learn to fly in 3d

[turtlespeed 212]

Why is it that we are always the "Rich Uncle" for most every country out there.

Before I get flamed - Just consider what is owed to us and what we contribute.

People think that we have a bad unemployment problem, and our welfare programs leave something to be desired.

Truth be told, if we didn't spend so much on everyone else, we'd (probably) have enough to house, feed and clothe every homeless person here.

Barring that - our tax rate would be a shit load less than it is now with the same quality of living.

So I guess my question is ... Why do we have to pay for everyone else?
Is it not our Tax dollars that fund all of this?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[BlueEyedMonster 0]

Quote

you are not understanding me...//...all i am saying is that the decision that was established by the referendum was more political than anything else
I understand this completely, and I am saying this is no excuse for the whining. Each and every person on the island of Vieques was responsible for which box he/she put the X in on the ballots. If they let themselves become a tool of the politics--its no one's fault but their own.

Blame who you want... parties, politics. In the end the people of Vieques marked the ballots. Its THEIR fault they are in this situation.

***and by the way it is VIEQUES....not Viques

Sorry, I am rather spellcheck dependant. Vieques is not in there.

[ikke 0]

The great thing is, the US isn't always the "Rich Uncle". It's something of a myth that the US is stupendously generous in terms of foreign aid when in fact, it contributes less per head than most other Western nations.

http://www.usaid.gov/environment/whatwespend.html

...for example.

"in terms of gross national product, the United States provides the smallest amount of foreign assistance of any major industrialized nation".

0.5% of GDP rather than the 20% that Americans think they provide.

It's still heaps of cash, of course, but the US isn't as generous as one might have thought. Apparently it's places like the Netherlands and Scandinavian countries that fork out most.

Cheers

John

[AggieDave 6]

That's nice, but show me a break down of the top 10 countries, what their GDP and what they give away. Now, lets figure that by what that would actually be in real money terms. We can pick a "neutral" currancy to convert it to, something like the Euro or something.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[jumprunner 0]

Quote

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,93029,00.html

Quote

The people of Puerto Rico are facing some unanticipated consequences from a victory they won in 2001.

For several years, Puerto Rican protesters demanded that the U.S. Navy leave the island of Vieques (search). Groups staged violent protests outside the main gate of "Camp Garcia," saying they were sick and tired of the live-fire bombing exercises.

The violence resulted in the gates of the base being torn down. Several U.S. troops and police dogs were injured in the demonstrations.

In response to the years of protest, former President Clinton agreed to stop Navy exercises there. Congress and President Bush ratified the deal and live-fire exercises were halted last May. But with its mission muzzled after 60 years, the Navy has decided to pull out of Puerto Rico completely.

That means the largest employer on the island, the Roosevelt Roads Naval Station (search), is now slated for closure that could come as early as October.

Island workers are accusing the Navy of economic revenge.

"You dedicate all your talents, all your efforts. You're loyal to your employer, this case being the U.S. Navy, and what do you get in return? A kick in the you-know-what," said Ana Angelet of the Puerto Rican chapter of the American Federation of Government Employees.

The 2004 defense-spending bill that is working its way through Congress has a provision in it to close the base down officially. With the loss of the base, Puerto Rico will also lose nearly $300 million the military pumped into it each year.

Puerto Ricans say the Navy is just mad because they won, and forced the live exercises to end. The Navy does not hide its disappointment. Navy officials say the location was long considered the best overall spot for exercises and stopping the live-fire training cost American military lives.

Sen. James Inhofe, R-Okla., a member of the Armed Services Committee (search), said Puerto Rico's politicians are to blame for the financial misfortune since they backed the protests.

"I just think it's a shame that the people, the ones that are suffering, are the people of Puerto Rico because it was the politicians that did it to them," Inhofe said.

Puerto Rican Gov. Sila Calderon, who backed the booting of the Navy from Vieques, made no apologies for a decision that could crush the Puerto Rican economy.

"We are partners with the U.S., but definitely the rights of the people of Vieques are not for sale or for any other purpose," Calderon said.

She also refused to discuss the possibility that the base closure could become law.

"This decision is not final at this point. The bill is not approved, and our aim as the commonwealth government is to have the decision postponed for 2005, when all the bases are going to be evaluated," she said.

The U.S. government may decide to hold onto the more than 8,000 acres, rather than returning it to the people of Puerto Rico.

"Those that don't want that to happen say well, 'Let's just give back to the Puerto Rican politicians,' and reward them with an asset that's worth $1.7 billion for kicking us off that range that has cost American lives. That's just not going to happen," Inhofe said.

The sense on all sides is that Congress will give the green light to shut down "Rosie Roads" officially. Bush could sign the bill into law as early as next month.

Fox News' Orlando Salinas contributed to this report.

Something tells me if this were anyone elses' Navy this wouldnt be happening. They wanted the US Navy out, now theyre out, and now theyre complaining about their own stupidity.